A statistical analysis of Olympic Scoring

[zorndeslammes]

As many often said here, there were a lot of questions about the scoring at these Olympics, particularly in how low the scoring was. I decided to crunch the numbers and gave my last opinions regarding the whole event. The difference in totals is shocking and demands some sort of explanation.

http://www.total-mma.com/2008/08/27/oly ... /#more-462

[boxmel]

One has to assume, given the massive nose dive in scoring, that at best equipment malfunction, and at worst deep rooted corruption, are responsible for the scoring issues at the Olympics.

I believe that neither is the case. Looks more like the judges, wanting to work the entire Olympics, didn't want to raise any flags with high scoring. The equipment didn't malfunction and I don't think there is any deep-rooted corruption.

And, I'll state it again, the U.S. is the ONLY country whose athletes are not funded by the government. This makes a huge difference when giving bonuses.

Good article - well thought out.

[zorndeslammes]

But prior Olympics featured "high" scoring. I don't remember quite this level of outrage regarding Athens, Sydney, or Atlanta. One thing I didn't add in were the stoppage/walkover numbers for comparison. Outside of 91+ and 81KG, they were waaaaay down. Something was up, and if there was a concerted effort to keep scoring down, I think that should be explictly stated. It just doesn't fit in numbers wise with anything in recent history.

[Dennis]

Scoring was down which had a snowball effect. Boxers not getting credit for landing punches became less active and the scores were even lower.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

And, I'll state it again, the U.S. is the ONLY country whose athletes are not funded by the government. This makes a huge difference when giving bonuses.

This is an enormous issue!!! I was reading about how much money some of these Olympic medalists have made from other countries. The Lithuanian government paid gold medalists $100,000 in 2004 and a BMW from the Olympic Committee. Manus Boonjumnong (Thailand) received an estimated $600,000 in bonuses for the 2004 games from the government, which he blew on liquor and gambling. Our athletes from 2004 games would get $25,000 for Gold, while Russia was paying $50,000. Not much of an incentive compared to signing a pro contract and receiving a signing bonus, huh.

I can only imaging what some of the payouts were for 2008. Anyone have that info?

[NYboxing]

The Dominican Republic pays its athletes who win gold, silver or bronze medals at the Olympic Games. According to Sports Minister Felipe Payano, the awards will range from nearly $90,000 to up to $200,000. Winners could also get a car. It is the first time the Dominican government has made such an offer. (source espn)

Looks like Felix Diaz has a nice check when he gets home

[therealPunchDrunk]

He needs to get that money to a cetain Alexis Vastine's bank account then...

[locoxelbox]

Several Olympic Committees offers money for medals. Mostly it´s private sponsors who hand out the money. I´ve seen many offer $100.000 for gold, $50.000 for silver and $25.000 for bronze or similar.
Thailand is a special case where boxing is by far the strongest sport and they have given enormous prize money to their gold medalists. None of them even bothered to turn pro.

The US boxers I´ve talked to didn´t complain about the money they received. Also, probably all of them received money from professional promoters.

Regarding the scoring: My only explanation is they probably wanted to minimize the chances of a lot of RSC-OS bouts which would´ve been ridiculous. Did anyone miss some 50 bouts stopped on this rule?

I do think the scoring was the worst in Olympic boxing since the electronic scoring started in 1992. However there have been worse scoring in Europe in the 90ies when bouts used to finish 2:1, 1:0, etc.

Regarding the article: I don´t think the biggest problem in US is the money. Their downfall started long before. They just haven´t adapted to international amateur boxing. Anyway less than a year ago they had two world champions and not many countries can say they have. To me, Andrade and Raynell Williams didn´t lose their bouts, meeting eventual medalists. What I´m trying to say is the US team was stronger than only a bronze medal.

[zorndeslammes]

Part of it is adapting to the international style, but I think money is probably the greatest force of all. If anything, the international style continues to adapt and look more and more like an "American" style. Guys like Lomachenko, Korobov, or Usyk don't fight anything like the stereotypical Eastern Bloc fighters of yore. They just have better athletes who are better seasoned in more complex and impressive amateur systems. And then when these guys all turn pro, they've got every mental advantage and they've honed their skills to be able to contend in short order. Meanwhile, the 2004 US Olympians are still putting around on Shobox here in the states.

As for minimizing the RSCOSes at the Games, with the 3 hours of coverage, having some more of the mismatches end in short order rather than drag them out to their 20-4 (or similar) conclusions would have been nice. Maybe then we would have gotten to see more fights.

[boxmel]

The US boxers I´ve talked to didn´t complain about the money they received. Also, probably all of them received money from professional promoters.

Generally speaking, all monies received by our elite boxers are put in a trust fund that is held by USA Boxing. It is usually a low amount and is used by the boxers for expenses, equipment, etc. Any monies received from pro promoters, if the boxers were even signed, goes into this trust fund.

Regarding the article: I don´t think the biggest problem in US is the money.

Me, either. This would be last on my list of wrongs.

[JMac]

One has to assume, given the massive nose dive in scoring, that at best equipment malfunction, and at worst deep rooted corruption, are responsible for the scoring issues at the Olympics.

I believe that neither is the case. Looks more like the judges, wanting to work the entire Olympics, didn't want to raise any flags with high scoring. The equipment didn't malfunction and I don't think there is any deep-rooted corruption.

Good article - well thought out.

I was one of the R/J's in Beijing. I was also not happy along with just about all boxing fans with the Olympic boxing. I have started to write up my thoughts on what went on but it will take me at least till next week as I need to get back into my job, get all of my thoughts together, etc.
I will just say that no one told us to keep our scores down and in fact, everyday we were told to count the jabs and body shots. Obviously that did not happen and Mel's response is part of the reason. Please don't ask me a lot of questions now. I will try to explain everything as I saw it.
Jim McNally, USA

[therealPunchDrunk]

Looking forward to that very much, Jmac! As I have a boxer going to the European championships in November, a deeper understanding of what goes on in the judges heads (and maybe what to expect in the future) would be very valuable.

[emile]

Interesting JMac. I would have thought for certain there was an effort made to keep scores lower. I don't understand what would have happened between Chicago and Beijing then.

There was, of course, very little complaint about the scoring in Chicago - but then those bouts were not highly scrutinized, or even seen by most people. I do think there were some serious downsides to those bouts as well - not the amount of RSCOS, but that the fights were mostly decided before the end of the first round. Making a comeback, when the leader was getting credit for most of their counterpunching, was near impossible.

[Marlin]

Good stuff

[emile]

I'm still awaiting JMac's thoughts with great interest.

For those also interested - JMac worked a few of the controversial bouts, including the losses of the Russians Beterbiev (ref), Vodopyanov, and Korobov - and the Diaz/Vastine fight. If judge's assignments were being manipulated, it doesn't really show on JMac's record. He had a lot of the Aussies and the Russians, and very different work loads between days, but things like that would be expected from a random draw.

[JMac]

I'm still awaiting JMac's thoughts with great interest.

For those also interested - JMac worked a few of the controversial bouts, including the losses of the Russians Beterbiev (ref), Vodopyanov, and Korobov - and the Diaz/Vastine fight. If judge's assignments were being manipulated, it doesn't really show on JMac's record. He had a lot of the Aussies and the Russians, and very different work loads between days, but things like that would be expected from a random draw.

Geese Emile, thanks for pointing out that I worked a lot of controversial bouts
I have it pretty much finished but it probably won't get posted til monday because I won't have time to finish it up this weekend. I have been away from work and my family for 3 weeks and have some catching up to do. You can fire away all of the questions then.

[sockdolager]

[emile]

I'm still awaiting JMac's thoughts with great interest.

For those also interested - JMac worked a few of the controversial bouts, including the losses of the Russians Beterbiev (ref), Vodopyanov, and Korobov - and the Diaz/Vastine fight. If judge's assignments were being manipulated, it doesn't really show on JMac's record. He had a lot of the Aussies and the Russians, and very different work loads between days, but things like that would be expected from a random draw.

Geese Emile, thanks for pointing out that I worked a lot of controversial bouts
I have it pretty much finished but it probably won't get posted til monday because I won't have time to finish it up this weekend. I have been away from work and my family for 3 weeks and have some catching up to do. You can fire away all of the questions then.

I wasn't suggesting anything bad Jim :) . You also worked a lot of non-controversial bouts. But I think your impressions of a few of those bouts, if you can speak to specifics, would be interesting to read.

[Blackeye 84]

Looking forward to Jmac comments. I coached a team at the Worlds in Chicago and was happy with the scoring there. The Olympics however!!! One of my athletes had some Great come from behind bouts in Chicago, the American crowd loved this kid!!! Unfortunatly he did not go to the Olympics, just as well, with the scoring the way it was.

[boxmel]

Blackeye - care to say a team from what country and who your athlete was?

[emile]

Must be Usmanee of Canada. He had two notable comebacks, although he lost the second one.

[Blackeye 84]

Yes, Usmanee - after knocking the crap out of the Turk - Kilic, he lost by one point last second of the bout, still do not know where that last point came from? One point away from Olympic Qualification - heartbreaker!!!

[boxmel]

Thanks, Emile and Blackeye. What part of Canada are you from?

[Kolya]

Yes, Usmanee - after knocking the crap out of the Turk - Kilic, he lost by one point last second of the bout, still do not know where that last point came from? One point away from Olympic Qualification - heartbreaker!!!

That hurts. I know our guys here in Montana were really surprised Usmanee didn't qualify.

[Blackeye 84]

Hey Mel, we know each other, I am from Alberta. You think the USA Boxing program is in trouble, Canada is worse!!!