"when we were kings" ... how wrong a view

[Robinson]

I dont think it is a case of 'great sportsmanship' as so much
as Ali not needing to go for the kill...Ali is a smart man and
knew Foreman was on his way out, he is a calculating ringman..
IF Foreman got back up it is very safe to say that Ali would have
finished him with the next knock down...

As for the whole Ali hitting Foreman as he was falling being
a death blow or a crippling blow...thats....something from
Hollywood...its just plain daft.

Ali had Foremans number that night, but I just do not subscribe
to the notion that Ali held back so as not to disable Foreman
for life.....

'physics' or not.

[man]

i don't want to play the mediator here guys, but i guess you need
not quarrel over this, your positions are not far enough from each
other to justify that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKDvkcLe0K0

that was the punch ali did not throw. foreman was grateful for that.
can such punches at HW be dangerous? sure. is a single punch with
10oz gloves likely to leave permanent damage? probably no.
nevertheless it can ...

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Big George, widely considered the most pulverising puncher of all time

Ali was tipped to be quickly dispatched like Frazier and Norton

yet Ali came out throwing bombs....took his licks

and destroyed Foreman

perhaps the greatest victory of them all ?

or am i just believing the hype

It was the biggest test in his entire life and he passed it...He's the only boxer to stop George Foreman in eighty one fights...George Foreman had just finished knocking out Joe Frazier and Ken Norton in two rounds each, in successive order... None of George Foreman's last seven opponents lasted more than two rounds...Muhammad Ali was approaching his thirty third birthday...George Foreman was aprroaching his twenty sixth...Muhammad Ali was supposed to be past it, especially after his lackluster performance against Ken Norton...There was not only fear that he would lose but fear he would be hurt...

If Ali retires after that fight he's 45-2 with no unavenged defeats and three victories over consensus top ten heavywights-Frazier, Foreman, and Liston...

Beside Doug Jones the only gift decisions that Ali's detractors kvetch about are the decision after Kinshasha; Young, Shavers, and Norton lll... I have seen some people say Spinks ll was a gift but you have to be besodden to believe that...

Anything to the contrary is fiction and not very good fiction at that...

[Ambling Alp]

Well, I guess a lot of this has been discussed too much already.
As for ranking Duran at lightweight, I think you could make a cse for Duran for being as high as #1. You could do the same for Benny Leonard, Armstrong, or Gans as well. They are all pretty close.

Unlike some other divisions, there isn't one lightweight who fought a lot of great competition at that weight and was clearly superior to that competition.

Gans, Leonard, and Duran were each fairly dominaint, but their overall competition wasn't nearly good as some of the other eras.

[JC]

I agree with almost everything that's been said but it leads me to ask this question.

Other than one guy on here who obviously has an agenda, who are all these "Ali knockers"? I would say of any fighter Ali is the one who is most uniformly praised for his career achievements.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Robinson]

It was a great feat...their is no denying that.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I agree with almost everything that's been said but it leads me to ask this question.

Other than one guy on here who obviously has an agenda, who are all these "Ali knockers"? I would say of any fighter Ali is the one who is most uniformly praised for his career achievements.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you read the thread "When We Were Kings", there are posters here who, imho, are desperately trying to persuade folks that Muhammad Ali and George Foreman were at the same place or thought to be at the same place in their respective careers and/or that Ali's victory over Foreman was ordinary or run of the mill and not momentous ...Nothing can be further from the truth...

[Robinson]

Who are those posters pray tell TOIH2008?

[Robinson]

Maybe I am missing something when I read what is
being said.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Who are those posters pray tell TOIH2008?

You're a good guy but I am concerned you are being influenced by those who are not...Your welfare is of my primary concern ...I almost feel in loco parentis on this board...

I try to be respectful of everybody, even people I disagree with... I even try to give public figures the benefit of the doubt...

[TheOneIsHere2008]

i don't want to play the mediator here guys, but i guess you need
not quarrel over this, your positions are not far enough from each
other to justify that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKDvkcLe0K0

that was the punch ali did not throw. foreman was grateful for that.
can such punches at HW be dangerous? sure. is a single punch with
10oz gloves likely to leave permanent damage? probably no.
nevertheless it can ...

Not the punch, sir, but the force that Foreman hits the canvas...He could have hit the canvas head first...

Respectfully, I'd bet my, errr, Ali would never do this to an opponent, even a Patterson and Terrel who refused to call him by his chosen name...He would never, never take those last four punches against a beaten man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oV6etPHi2A

If you watch the clips I provided you can see Ali pulling his punches against Quarry, Mathis, and Ellis... He goes into detail how his opponents are human beings with families to take care of and it's not intention to injure them but to outpoint them if possible and go home...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oV6etPHi2A

[Robinson]

Ok TOIH2008....off course....naturally.

[Robinson]

I disagree with some of your opinions...that does not mean
I dislike you....I only have an opinion and perspective...just
like you.

What makes this board good is that we all can agree and
disagree and defend our views.

I just do not share the views of some on Ali...that does
not mean I am a 'hater' or I have been influenced by others
it just means I do not buy into what i read...I like to see
with my own eyes when it comes to fights and like to
question what I read....

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Ok TOIH2008....off course....naturally.

A poster on this board told me it's not the responsibility of a boxer not to hit a helpless opponent... It is the responsibility of the referee to stop him..Technically he is right...But what did Cooney gain by taking those four shots as Norton was sitting on the ropes... He could have possibly killed him, a la Benny Paret...

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I disagree with some of your opinions...that does not mean
I dislike you....I only have an opinion and perspective...just
like you.

What makes this board good is that we all can agree and
disagree and defend our views.

I just do not share the views of some on Ali...that does
not mean I am a 'hater' or I have been influenced by others
it just means I do not buy into what i read...I like to see
with my own eyes when it comes to fights and like to
question what I read....

Where's Collins2000?

[Robinson]

I think he is still in blighty...

[Robinson]

Protect yourself at all times...
BUT it is up to the Ref to protect a fighter when he
is in danger....

Let me just tell you that sometimes when your throwing
punches you do not realise that the other guy is hurt
and you do not wish to let him go....Cooney was doing
his job..and Norton lived to enjoy his retirement.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Protect yourself at all times...
BUT it is up to the Ref to protect a fighter when he
is in danger....

Let me just tell you that sometimes when your throwing
punches you do not realise that the other guy is hurt
and you do not wish to let him go....Cooney was doing
his job..and Norton lived to enjoy his retirement.

Perhaps it was momentum ...But Norton was out...Those punches were gratuitous...Sometimes the referee is just incompetent...

Should Ali have beat the Hell out of Quarry when he was helpless?

Ditto for Mathis and Ellis...

He still won the fight...I am not naive... I realize what goes in a ring...I just think if you can win, comfortably, without beating your opponent silly then where's the harm...

I guess some people would rather watch Van Gogh eat his ear than paint his masterpiece...

[Robinson]

I was told a long time ago that showing mercy in the ring
is a form of weakness...that being said I do not personally
look to be brutal...

but these are contests between two trained professionals...

The referee has a job to do, so do the fighters.

[I Feel Fine]

Can I just say one thing about the traditional criticism of this fight?

For all the talk about the loose ropes, Ali spends more time in the corners than he does on the ropes. And obviously the corners couldn't bend. And, along with spending more time in the corners than he did on the ropes, he was more effective in the corners than he was on the ropes. Has anyone else noticed that about the fight?

[man]

Respectfully, I'd bet my, errr, Ali would never do this to an opponent, even a Patterson and Terrel who refused to call him by his chosen name...He would never, never take those last four punches against a beaten man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oV6etPHi2A

i do agree. and i give ali very much credit for this.
technically it is the referee who stops the action,
but there are times when within the time until he
can actually stop the bout, some punches already
have landed. i would love if all boxers were like ali
in this respect, but it is first degree hypocrite would
i ask for it from all fighters. they pump up, risk their
own ass and really want to be sure the other guy
does not rise again. i am being the hypocrite if i want
them to go to combat each other, try to knock out
the opponent and behave like gentlemen at the same
time. nevertheless, both cooney and tua punched
opponents they should judge as defeated. but i am
not a pro boxer ... so ... who am i to tell ...

[man]

do you remember the demspey fight, where he helped
the knockout guy back on his feet immediately? pretty
impressive.

[man]

Let me just tell you that sometimes when your throwing
punches you do not realise that the other guy is hurt
and you do not wish to let him go....

i guess very few boxers intend to do lasting damage to
their opponent. i guess every now and then it just happens.

[Robinson]

do you remember the demspey fight, where he helped
the knockout guy back on his feet immediately? pretty
impressive.

Patterson would do that often as well. Even a young Tyson
did it. Always a good sign of sportsmanship.

Injuries or death from sport at a nasty consequence of high
performance.

[Robinson]

Yes....which is another myth created by that doco on the other
thread.