Ezzard wrote:A very contentious issue on this board...
I take the sentiment of your post BUT I think we have to be clinical in our assessment...
Duran not preparing properly was his own fault and we can't dismiss the rematch as a joke because of this. Leonard was ready. Duran signed for the fight. The result is the result. You can argue fight 1 meant more if you like, that's what boards like this are for, but we can't dismiss the result.
I think Duran quit because of a combination of Leonard's clowning and his own lack of preparation. He knew he was going to lose and his ego just imploded. He hadn't prepared properly because his entourage of blood suckers had helped to convince him he could walk on water.
Duran went into a physical and psychological free fall. Never showed the same speed or conditioning ever again. Found glimpses of himself occassionally and the skills were still there but the whole package would never be seen again.
Leonard still had his career ahead of him. Went on to post wins over the best fighters of his generation. And shwoed off a dazzling repertoire of skill and athleticism in doing so...
I think these 2 fights are possibly the most important fights of the last 30 years. I love this rivalry and read everything and anything I can on the subject.
on the contrary,people are always very quick to dismiss tyson's loss to "buster dougless"( ) due to him not being properly prepared,and feel that this is totally a justifiable stance on tyson's behalf,so why not use the same excuse for Duran's behalf?( ).
after all,tyson not preparing for even a journeyman like douglass is by all means indeed,....his fault.
duran signed for the fight because it was either "do it right now so you can make ($10 mil)" or forget about it and make nil and nada....and,no....we wont give you till march to be properly prepared.Sugar Ray wants the rematch in November and we have to cater to his demands,or he'll be "veh-wee veh-wee uptet".
Leonard made it clear in the documentary that he was carefully observing the fact that duran was stuffing his face and partying(not maintaining himself at all),and thus took advantage of this by seizing the opportunity to demand the promoters of his wishes to fight Duran as soon as possible and they went right ahead and catered to The Sugar Man's demands because they felt utterly obliged to do so because SRL had so much notoriety and authority at that time,including over the boxing commission and it's promoters.do you see a stategic pattern of logical businessman minded thought here yet?
So Duran,having to lose over 80 lbs in 2 and a half months had to undertake a brutally rigorous and strength sapping training and diet regimen that left him at two thirds of his true abilities and credentials.
Why do you think SRL was so happy and excited before the fight even began?....could it be because he knew he had a much less version of Duran to fight for that particular night...?.....Hmmmm.
I'm not quick to dismiss Tyson's loss. He lost. He was knocked out. Douglas was the better man that night. Neither do I subscribe to this threory: "The inspired Douglas would have beaten any HW that night." Too many people bought into the myth.
Leonard may have waited for Duran... Set a trap... But he didn't put a funeel in his mouth and pour the food in.
I think Duran climbed his mountain and took his foot off the gas. Believed his own hype and looked at the numbers on the cheque.
Lots of fans are polarised. Everyone's looking for an excuse: Leonard fought the wrong fight; Duran wasn't properly prepared. I like to think of their welterweight fights as 50:50 and enjoy the great rivalry.
is it just me, or does Ali actually spend a lot less time on the ropes OR in the corner than the 'Kings' Documentary would suggest? I haven't seen the fight in ages but I could swear that Ali only really spent large portions of maybe 2/3 rounds on the ropes.
[quote="funso banjo baby"]Big George, widely considered the most pulverising puncher of all time
Ali was tipped to be quickly dispatched like Frazier and Norton
yet Ali came out throwing bombs....took his licks
and destroyed Foreman
perhaps the greatest victory of them all ?
or am i just believing the hype[/quote]
I think this fight, along with others, showed Ali's ability to absorb punishment. I watched the fight recently, and despite the loose ropes, George pounded away at Ali, Hit him with many shots that other fighters would not have been able to stand up to.
In the long run, Ali's ability to absorb punishment and his strategy of laying on the ropes taking punishment while the other guy got tired, I belive resulted in Ali's demise.
So, Ali has an extraordinary ability to take punishment and George got tired.
funso banjo baby wrote:Big George, widely considered the most pulverising puncher of all time
Ali was tipped to be quickly dispatched like Frazier and Norton
yet Ali came out throwing bombs....took his licks
and destroyed Foreman
perhaps the greatest victory of them all ?
or am i just believing the hype
I think this fight, along with others, showed Ali's ability to absorb punishment. I watched the fight recently, and despite the loose ropes, George pounded away at Ali, Hit him with many shots that other fighters would not have been able to stand up to.
In the long run, Ali's ability to absorb punishment and his strategy of laying on the ropes taking punishment while the other guy got tired, I belive resulted in Ali's demise.
So, Ali has an extraordinary ability to take punishment and George got tired.
Who would you rather be today?
The warrior-Ali...
Folks get sick all the time...Michael J. Fox, Johnny Cash, Billy Graham, Pope John Paul all had or have Parkinson's Disease, and they have never been hit...
"A coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero only one.”
-William Shakespeare
Oh, Ali's midsection was in incredible shape... He also was ahead on the cards 5-3 or 6-2 so he was scoring off the ropes...
If all he did was lay on the ropes wouldn't he have been behind 8-0 on all the cards?
Robinson wrote:Let me just tell you that sometimes when your throwing
punches you do not realise that the other guy is hurt
and you do not wish to let him go....
i guess very few boxers intend to do lasting damage to
their opponent. i guess every now and then it just happens.
Maybe it was momentum but Norton and Ruiz were out well before the punches stopped...
It reminded me of the famous murder case of the Scarsdale doctor where the defendant said she shot him accidentally when the gun dislodged six times...
Ali was against the ropes a good portion of the fight. However, he was fighting off of the ropes a lot, which isn't easy to do.
Of course some of the fight was spent in the middle of the ring as well. It was a very hard fought fight by both guys. Foreman gradually began to tire from a combination of throwing so many big punches, getting hit cleanly, and the hot weather.
Frazier liked to take credit for Ali's illness, you're giving the credit to Foreman, but thats a bit of a myth. It wasn't any one fight, it was probably a combination of all of his latter fights.
And yes, I agree with those above who said that Ali spent a lot more time in the middle of the ring than people tend to mention.
Counter-puncher wrote:is it just me, or does Ali actually spend a lot less time on the ropes OR in the corner than the 'Kings' Documentary would suggest? I haven't seen the fight in ages but I could swear that Ali only really spent large portions of maybe 2/3 rounds on the ropes.
thank you. exactly my point. the fight the "docu" describes never
happened.
TigerMoth wrote:So, Ali has an extraordinary ability to take punishment and George got tired.
Who would you rather be today?
i basically agree with you on the analysis that ali's ability
and willingness to absorb punishment made him become
what he has become. but this was not from the foreman
fight. vast majority of shots were to the body. not to the
head. out of this fight i'd rather be ali. out of all of their
fights i'd rather be foreman.
Robinson wrote:Chances are that Ali would have developed his illness regardless
of his ring damage.
Genetics are by far more crueler than the blows one gets in the
ring.
i heard an interview with a medical doctor and he said ali suffers
parkinson symptoms, not parkinson. he got that from inside
the ring. it looks like parkinson, but the source is different. but i
am not a doctor, so i cannot judge on this. i very much respect
that ali and his family want to believe it is not from fighting too
long ...
Ali has Parkinsonism or Parkinson's Syndrome...He does not have Parkinson's Disease...He has symptoms that mimic Parkinson's Disease... If my memory is correct he has issued a statement that his problems are most likely a result of his boxing career...
If you include sparring, Muhammad Ali has boxed 15,000 rounds and he was notorious for letting his sparring partners bang him around for conditioning...To attribute his condition to this fight or that fight is folly...
In retrospect he should have retired after Kinshasha when he was 45-2 or after Manila when he was 49-2 with no unavenged defeats and wins over three consensus top ten heavyweights...
But he's not the only athlete/fighter who stayed too long...
Either way, it wasn't the result of just the Foreman fight or just the Frazier fights. I think that should be said. And the idea that we should admire those who are healthy and wealthy rather than those who took punishment and gave of themselves in an effort to win sounds like the antithesis of what boxing is about. Not that we shouldn't admire Foreman, or that Foreman never took punishment, or that Foreman never put himself at risk to win a match, he certainly did, but I'm just addressing the logic that tigermoth is putting forth.
) due to him not being properly prepared,and feel that this is totally a justifiable stance on tyson's behalf,so why not use the same excuse for Duran's behalf?(
).
