Teddy Atlas's current assesmant of amateur Boxing

[squarering]

On ESPN Friday Night Fights Teddy Atlas had bronze medalist Donte Wilder as a guest. He talked about many thing that have transpired through the year and then came up with his suggestions of how to fix amateur boxing. If I remember them all,, 1. Remove headgear at the top level to make it more interesting, he said that it is proven that headgear does not serve as protect from impact, but does help with cuts. 2. Throw out the scoring system and go back to a more basic criteria like the pros. The Roy Jones incident could not be fixed by electronics and that people can still flaw the system. 3. Clean house at USA Boxing at the top and bring in new people. 4, Bring in Cuban coaches, (hope they bring a few cigars with them). 5. More camps at the Jr level that include personal coaches. I think that is all of them. ANY comments.

[Canada]

I agree with him about the scoring critera. I have to disagree with the headgear. I think Teddy just wants the amatuers to be exactly like the pros. And what exactly would the "top" level be? A lot of kids wouldnt get permission to box from their parents if the wernt forced to wear headgear, and then those kids if they hadnt given up on trying to box, would find another sports, and if they didnt give up on wanting to box would lose valubale years in experience and development. Is there actully a study that proves what Teddy is saying about the impact and headgear? Looking at most amatuer events there are very few stoppages and at the higher level there are virtully none, unless you count RSCO. Then you look at the pros where guys that only have knockouts in half their wins are considered light hitters. As for the Cuban coaches, if they keep the scoring the way it is, I think some type of international coach from a place like Cuba or Russia would be a good idea. However if the scoring gets changed to the pro criteria like Teddy wants I don't think the USA needs to do so. They are the best in the world with pro boxing.

[squarering]

Canada,
I think is that if you change the coaches to reflect a scoring system, that many feel is flawed, you change the course of boxing due to the fact the you truly will have to go back and learn a new style that is conducive to the pros. If you look at the past it was so easy to cross over with the Sugar Rays, Ali, Forman, ect ect. Now when a guy turns pro, (one of only two possible roads after an amateur career, quit boxing or turn) if is very difficult to tell what you have and I believe that many guys that don't get to the Olympic level have as good or even a better chance of crossing over.
Head gear,? Yes it does protect you or the pros would not use it in sparring always even spending over a hundred dollars on them. If they didn't use them, they would start slurring words after a couple years of boxing and sparring. But at the Olympic level and international level, it might make sense to try it for a number of reasons. 1. Better visablity of competitors ie. exposure to create more interest on the spectator side. 2. The chance to get ready for that cross over for the guys that intend to move on. 3. It sets apart the Elite level and creates a new change that some kids would want to strive for. All the parents that have average kids boxing would still be fine at the local, regional and National level. If a kid gets that far I think most parents and boxers would have no problem with the change. (most at that level are considering turning one day)
Cuban coaches absolutely! Once we have proved that successful coaches like Barry Hunter and many of the the top personal coaches just can't do the job. Until then we would be why would you go outside of a sustem to recurite when we all know that the talent is already here, just untapped for Whatever reason. This reminds me of the boxer I had that everyone said could not box at a lower weight because he had never been able to make that weight. My comment and thought was, I will believe he can not make that weight after he eats and trains like he is suppose to for 10 weeks. Then I will make that decision, He made weight, no problem. If my thinking mirrored Teddy's I would have let him box at a higher weight for a poor reason, laziness and lack of commitment. Until we do everything the way you are suppose to by recruiting the cream of the crop, how can anyone possible say we help from the outside. The big question is/was Did we put for our absolute best people for the job in the right place? Until we do that I don't care if we bring back Chappie Blackburn from his grave, you working ass backwards.

[boxmel]

AIBA brought up the subject of no headgear - IOC said no. Never. Remember when the boxer's headgear was put on after they had entered the ring and been introduced? Didn't do much for recognition and it took too long. Teddy needs to understand amateur boxing and scoring before he starts spouting his fixes.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

Regarding the no headgear - There was a university running a study at the Ringside Tournament regarding headgear and injury. They had boxers (over 18 yrs old) where headgear fitted with a monitoring device. I have to get the name of the university because I can't remember which one it was. The goal was to collect data for improving the protection of the boxers. I personally am ok with the headgear, but I really don't think it stops any trauma. I'm no doctor or scientist (sorry for stating the obvious), but I don't see how headgear really helps lesson the impact of a blow to the head. It's my understanding that the injurious effect of a blow is the brain jogging against the skull inside of the protective fluid that surrounds the brain after sudden movement. When the head is hit and moved violently in different directions, the skull may change directions faster and independent of the brain (because the brain is floating in the fluid). Think of a person in a falling elevator. If the elevator stops or changes direction quickly, what happens to the people inside? Would they be less injured if the elevator was wrapped in a 10 foot-thick layer of rubber? I don't think so.

I found this study that supports my two cents: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Boxing-D ... 5433.shtml and this reference to it: http://articles.latimes.com/2007/may/14 ... e-boxing14. I also found another that said headgear lessons the impact, but it was done in conjunction with USAB, so what else would you expect. It's funny that every study or opinion that says there isn't significant injury comes from a person or group affiliated with boxing.

There's no doubt we are involved in a very dangerous sport, but so is football, soccer and cheerleading. I for one am all for any improvement made in the rules to help protect boxers. Unfortunately and fortunately for some - most of that responsibility falls on the coaches. To me nothing is more important than protecting boxers - mine and others.

[boxmel]

I think the conjecture is that headgear lessens the impact (and definitely does wonders in preventing cuts), not that it prevents head injuries. That's why the name was changed from "headguard" to "headgear" some years ago. If you are so inclined to read, an excellent study published in the British Medical Journal can be found at http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/bmj ... 90220.55v1. The introduction of headgear in 1984 is included in the reasons for less head injuries. The gentelmen who published the study were not asked to by any boxing entity. Matter of fact, it's well known that the British Medical Association loathes boxing in any form. Many years ago, USAB asked Johns Hopkins to conduct a long-range study as an independent researcher. I doubt seriously that they would come up with medical findings just to side with USAB if said findings did not prove that there were less head injuries since the onset of wearing headgear.

[squarering]

I think it is safe to say that you can find a study that supports of almost any view. Still all I heard form spectators and even true boxing fans is that watching am boxing has become boring compared to bouts from the past. Hard to swallow when you put a huge part of you life into creating good top level am boxers. What about some of the other issues.?

[DCAmateurBoxing]

I think the conjecture is that headgear lessens the impact (and definitely does wonders in preventing cuts), not that it prevents head injuries. That's why the name was changed from "headguard" to "headgear" some years ago. If you are so inclined to read, an excellent study published in the British Medical Journal can be found at http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/bmj ... 90220.55v1. The introduction of headgear in 1984 is included in the reasons for less head injuries. The gentelmen who published the study were not asked to by any boxing entity. Matter of fact, it's well known that the British Medical Association loathes boxing in any form. Many years ago, USAB asked Johns Hopkins to conduct a long-range study as an independent researcher. I doubt seriously that they would come up with medical findings just to side with USAB if said findings did not prove that there were less head injuries since the onset of wearing headgear.

Thanks, I should have added that one to my post. I read it yesterday when I was looking stuff up. I didn't know that about the BMA. I figured that most of the studies (that I saw when I was researching) were coming out of the UK because that's where the sport has it's roots.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

I think it is safe to say that you can find a study that supports of almost any view. Still all I heard form spectators and even true boxing fans is that watching am boxing has become boring compared to bouts from the past. Hard to swallow when you put a huge part of you life into creating good top level am boxers. What about some of the other issues.?

If MMA can explode in a few years after living in relative anonymity (general public) with the right people involved - boxing can too. We just need THE RIGHT PEOPLE INVOLVED. Unfortunately, that is also going to include not only USAB staff and management, but a talented and "marketable" (I know they're amateurs) young boxer or boxers for the public to follow and care about. That was going to be Raushee . . .

I hope we don't have to wait for this youngster to come of age http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_1KfvOYVi0

[boxmel]

I feel so very sorry for that poor kid. His dad/coach is selling him all over. He'll be 8 soon, if not already. I've received an email asking for contacts to match him up with in his first bouts. And dad is selling his videos at $5.00 each on his web site. Sad.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

I feel so very sorry for that poor kid. His dad/coach is selling him all over. He'll be 8 soon, if not already. I've received an email asking for contacts to match him up with in his first bouts. And dad is selling his videos at $5.00 each on his web site. Sad.

I think the kid is enjoying himself from what I've seen and talking to his dad. Haven't met him yet, but I know he does a lot of other things besides boxing (music, acting, etc) and considering the other stuff that I've seen online with children misbehaving - as long as he's having fun with it, I'm ok with it. I would like to see how he does when he actually gets to compete though.

[boxmel]

as long as he's having fun with it, I'm ok with it.

I think the kid is probably having fun - it's the dad's expectations I'm worried about. I forgot - he's from your area, right?

I would like to see how he does when he actually gets to compete though.

Me, too - let us know if you get the opportunity.

[squarering]

Mel,
I can't fault dad for making money selling videos of his son, so long as they are not the wrong kind of video. We both know a coach /dad that has sold videos of his son and used the money to get him to tournaments and other boxing related expenses. Having a youngster talented enough to be able the raise funds for his transportation, uniforms, hotel, food and gym time is not an evil thing unless you take it to an extreme, ie some of the very young model and beauty pageant contestants. As DC said this is a very intelligent well rounded boy that may not even become a boxer if he pursue any one of his other talents more seriously. The word exploit means " to use or manipulate to ones advantage"
That doesn't have to be a bad thing,,,,,although it can.

[boxmel]

That doesn't have to be a bad thing,,,,,although it can.

Wait and see.

[hbomb2]

There is a huge different from impact with headgear oppose to no headgear. The brain may be tossed around the same but it hurts more without the headgear as I boxed both amateur and professional. I prefer to box without headgear as the I can see better as the headgear presents blindspots. Teddy Atlas is a smart guy but he is taking the wrong stance on this one. We need to stop complaining about the system and embrace it and master it. It is new to many as it is not used on the grassroot level but only in the nationals and Olympic qualifiers. We have used the system for 16 years now and the people complain every Olympic year while we should have been mastering it all along. I am surprised as I speak to many coaches that show that they are not educated on how to best box with the system. Other countries have the system in their daily practices. The clickers that we have is not even close to the system. Professional boxing has no place in the Olympic Games. The NBA should leave a stage for our college players as they only have the NCAAs and not every team make it to the Final Four. I go on tangents so let me stop now. LOL

[DCAmateurBoxing]

There is a huge different from impact with headgear oppose to no headgear. The brain may be tossed around the same but it hurts more without the headgear as I boxed both amateur and professional. I prefer to box without headgear as the I can see better as the headgear presents blindspots.

I'm for headgear too, but my point was the science doesn't support your statement. There are more credible studies and test saying (independent of any boxing organization) that headgear does NOT lesson the impact on the brain. That's a fact. I do agree that headgear does help with superficial bruising, cuts, scrapes, etc. IMO, I think any advancement in headgear protection will have to come from the material used as there has bee a lot of advancement in the area of altering the physical properties of materials (ballistics, fireproofing, lightweight, etc.) I'm sure we can come up with a ligthweight material that actually absorbs some of the force. Leather and padding are ancient. Imagine a material that actually distributes the force of the blow across the entire surface of the material. Currently, most of the development of nano-material will probably be taken and classified for military use. Hopefully, someone will come up with something to help boxing and other contact sports.

It will be expensive, but how much is a brain worth?

[lukerunion]

The cuban coaches are not what makes the difference. We have great coaches at home that aren't being given the right opportunities, and there is no transparency to their selection for events. This is cuba boxing:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episo ... ction/977/

I wish the video was still available to see for free. It was an incredible documentary.

The woman at the Ringside tournament conducting the survey was Dr. Marilyn Boitano, from Wayne State.

[lukerunion]

As I've learned in this article, college boxing paved the way for both the 8 count, and headgear, which first entered the scene at the 1949 college championships for the intended purpose of preventing cuts. I am not sure how, or where along the way, that shock absorption became scientifically founded as a prevention to being punch drunk - but i'd like to know. A study at the Naval Academy over 20 years ago is the basis of equipment manufacturing today for safety standards.

http://www.studentorg.umd.edu/boxc/history.pdf

Also, I recall Dr. Voy at Colorado Springs once giving a talk about how there are more variable factors that influence impact strength than just glove weight. According to simple physics, force = mass times acceleration, the strength of the punch is influenced by both the weight of the glove and the handspeed. So a boxer who punches as quickly with heavier gloves as he does with lighter gloves will actually have harder punches due to the increased mass. And there you have the principles of overloading training, etc.

thesis statement:
So in theory, by making our headgear and gloves heavier, which become constant variables, we make our athletes slower than international competition???. im not sure what my point is now but i thought id add that to the discussion. i'd like to see under armour do what they did for the t shirt to sports padding.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

The cuban coaches are not what makes the difference. We have great coaches at home that aren't being given the right opportunities, and there is no transparency to their selection for events. This is cuba boxing:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episo ... ction/977/

I wish the video was still available to see for free. It was an incredible documentary.

The woman at the Ringside tournament conducting the survey was Dr. Marilyn Boitano, from Wayne State.

I posted in another thread:

Part I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5v_lFYx ... re=related
Part 2http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68T3CLez ... re=related
Part 3http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCcjTfN9 ... re=related
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00J8L0Zs ... re=related
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g2criAd ... re=related

[DCAmateurBoxing]

i'd like to see under armour do what they did for the t shirt to sports padding.

The science is already there, it just doesn't make financial sense as the R&D for the technology would be too costly to market to the masses. That's why the companies that develope the technology usually go after military applications first. No one would pay $5000 for headgear But that doesn't mean that we cannot improve. Show me another 20 year-old study on ANY manufactured item that is still accepted & unchanged today and I show you an item that is obsolete. If true, that is really scary. I have seen some of the headgrear (headguards) that were used 15-20 years ago and they are the same with more padding. If you look at any other sports, the equipment has dramatically improved in material and design: football, hockey, golf, baseball & basketball (materials mostly) and track (how much $$$ has been spent on footwear R&D) just off the top of my head. The difference is that there is a significant market for $1000 drivers and $200 running shoes. . . it would take a great philanthropic gesture to 1) develop headgear that uses the latest scientific technology and 2) subsidize the cost so that the average boxer could afford it.

Where's Golden Boy when you need them?

[boxmel]

Where's Golden Boy when you need them?

No where, as usual. 8)

Marilyn (Dr. Boitano) and our own JMac have been very instrumental over the years in the testing of gloves and headgear. It's an ongoing process.

I'm going to buy the Cuban documentary. I'll let you know when I have and will be more than happy to make it available to those who want to see it.

[lukerunion]

An announcement was released on usaboxing.org that golden boy is beginning a partnership with USAB. We will have to wait to see what unfolds. Oscar wore the same brand Jordan shoes that our olympians and pan am team wore in his fight with mayweather. but his were all read. there may be some opportunities there where we will see something develop between, GBP, USAB, and Nike/Jordan. I hope so! If not, maybe Kevin Plank and Big E will put their money where their mouths are - Under Armour commercials has seen athletes shadowboxing, and hitting a speedbag. They sponsored a pro fighter in Baltimore when they were a young company, Jed Phipps, and I had heard they sponsor some MMA fighters. They also have sponsorship in the Fight Night Round 3 video game, which has Oscar or Bernard on the cover? But were is the equipment and apparel? Not as much money as football/baseball/lacrosse.

i think having a boxer wear under armour on showtime/hbo/espn fnf, etc is free advertising worth the money to develop trunks and some equipment. additionally outfitting an olympic team, albeit no a premier sport, could be something worthwhile for a company who wants to beat out nike - and could take away something from them - brand jordan sponsorship.

i went to university of maryland - needless to say im a fan of the gear. we must protect this house!

[Zelley]

AIBA brought up the subject of no headgear - IOC said no. Never. Remember when the boxer's headgear was put on after they had entered the ring and been introduced? Didn't do much for recognition and it took too long. Teddy needs to understand amateur boxing and scoring before he starts spouting his fixes.

Teddy is fine in his analysis of pro boxing, despite being wrong some of the time.
But, not sure AIBA folks would pay much attention to his views on amateur boxing.

Concerning Cuban coaches, that doesn't say much for a sport that would have to import coaches. We are not dealing with rocket science.

[Gray-Fox]

I have this Cuban documentary on DVD. I will upload it asap.

[squarering]

Teddy has a draw and people to listen to him. His past with Tyson, his New Yawk accent and his scare the reminds people that he was a street kid. Remember no matter what anyone says when you are talking about TV it is more about entertainment and viewers than that actual sport. By bringing Teddy into the Olympics, it gave it credibility with the prop boxing audience and cause people to listen. But I don't believe that Teddy spend much time following the amateurs unless there is a Dametrious Andrade, a kid form his neck of the woods or a pro that just came out of the ams.