"Two Ton" Tony Galento

[I Feel Fine]

Well we can start talking about each others selective memories but that would be pointless so I'm not going to bother responding to that. But I do recall in the late rounds that Louis was very badly hurt by a Charles right hand, probably in the 13th or 14th round. I cringed when I saw the shot and how badly Louis was hurt; you can call me a "Louis hater" all you like but I honestly felt bad for Louis, he looked to be in a lot of pain. And I don't think that I need to point out to anyone that Louis was hurt badly by Conn, its one of the most famous moments in boxing history. But what you fail to admit, which I find to be quite absurd, is that there's a rather big difference between being hurt by -174 lbs Billy Conn and being hurt by a big punching Heavyweight in Bonavena. Do I really need to point that out? And Ali was awful in the Bonavena fight, coming off his long exile, while there was nothing wrong with Louis when he fought Conn that I know of.

And as I pointed out in my last post, I do not think that Louis had a "bad chin." Those are your words, not mine. I believe that, as Heavyweight champions go, Louis had an average chin.

I haven't "read about Galento" I've "never heard of his opponents." Thank you for your presumptuous comments, but I don't believe that you're in a position to say that. I didn't deny that Galento was a big puncher for his day, but if you're asking me if I believe that he hit harder than Earnie Shavers my answer is going to be a definite no, and I doubt that I'm alone on that. Shavers' power was respected by guys like Ali and Holmes who fought recognized all time big punchers in Foreman, Liston and Tyson. I'll take that over a guy whose best knockout win was apparently a foul fest against Lou Nova. I also like how you dodged my point about Louis being in his prime against Galento and Ali being 35 and still not going down against Shavers, which is quite a difference.

Louis squared up MUCH more often than Ali and thus was vulnerable to flash KDS, but pluueeze show me any evidence Louis was seriously hurt after the KDs vs Buddy Baer, Galento, Braddock etc. He got right back up, his legs were completly under him, and he went right back to work.

I think that's fair and I would agree with that. But Ali, in his later years, was right in front of Foreman, Frazier, Lyle, Norton, Shavers and others for large portions of their fights and only Frazier managed to drop him, once. That's not something that most fighters can compare with. Another thing is you don't seem to be able to distinguish between being hurt/dropped by a natural Heavyweight and being hurt/dropped by what we would today consider Cruiserweights, if not outright Light Heavyweights like Conn. And I know you'll keep going back to Cooper since that's all people can do when they want to question Ali's chin, but that just doesn't work. Ali was still maturing. I could just as well point out that of the two Louis was the only one to be knocked out, by Schmeling and Marciano, but I haven't harped on that because of Louis' age. But in reality, Ali even in old age showed quite a chin, Holmes and Berbick couldn't knock him out or down even when he was a shade away from Parkinsons.

[Robinson]

I personally feel that Shavers puts Baer away. Thats just my opinion.

Galento's hook was effective because it was short, attached to his
230+lbs of meat and was deceptively fast for something on a squat
man like himself.

To say it was as good, as powerful or better than say Cooney's, Frazier's
is a tad mis-leading I feel.

[John Galt]

I Feel Fine wrote, "But in reality, Ali even in old age showed quite a chin, Holmes and Berbick couldn't knock him out or down even when he was a shade away from Parkinsons."

Do you really believe that Holmes tried to knock Ali down? Do you think Holmes was fighting Ali with the intensity that he fought Cooney, Carl Williams and others?

[I Feel Fine]

No, but there were moments in the fight where he went after Ali with the clear intent of ending the fight. Considering Ali's condition you wouldn't think it would take very much for Holmes to put him down, but he wasn't able to. But of course this is the kind of stuff we hear when it comes to Ali. We're supposed to be impressed when Joe Louis can survive a paper cut, but when Ali at 38 coming off a two year retirement, with a hole in his membrane, having lost who knows how much weight for the fight, who is taking thyroid pills, and who is probably already on the road to Parkinsons doesn't go down against a prime Holmes we're supposed to take into account that Holmes might have pulled back at times. Brilliant.

Clearly Holmes had no intention of hurting Ali whatsoever, especially at 1:05-1:25 or 1:48-2:08 or 2:45-3:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBa9BxfYpHA
Did he go all out three minutes a round? No. Does it matter?

But this is the rationale of many hardcore Louis fans; the notion that Louis is entitled to nothing but ultimate praise, while Ali must be held to the highest level of scrutiny. Dempseyfire has said as much on more than one occasion. I obviously don't concur. They should get the same treatment, in my view; why does Louis deserve less objective scrutiny than Ali? Why is it sacrilegious to mention something about Louis' chin, but a no-no to give Ali some credit for standing up to the horrendous beating against Holmes? I still haven't heard a good explanation for that logic.

[Robinson]

Ali had tremendous abilities of recovery. He showed this in
many a fight. He also loved to clinch which helped him plenty
of times.

The Holmes fight is silly...Holmes never seemed to load up and
just seemed pained to be doing that whole thing.
You can not point to that fight and say 'Ali has a great chin because
Holmes never KO'd him" even though it was as much as KO as
Ali's was over Frazier in 1975.

Ali was hurt in the Shavers fight, but showed great skills and power of recovery
something few men possessed when eating massive blows.

Shots like the Banks and Cooper blows put him down because
when he was younger he seemed did not wear blows as well
as when he was older...even though he was harder to catch.
Fraziers KD was just a perfect heavy landing hook that was
testament to Ali's ability to recover and clinching.

The Wepner KD is most likely as easy to categorise as the
Galento-Louis one....being caught by a big, heavy prize fighter
is always going to be dangerous when you get complacent
around them.

[I Feel Fine]

Again, this is where I bring in the point about condition. Its one thing if Ali had been 28 against Shavers. Even at that age it would be impressive to take the shots he took against Earnie. But he wasn't 28, he was 35. Holmes did not go all out, as I said myself. But it doesn't matter, considering Ali's condition. He hit Ali hard enough that most fighters in Ali's condition would have gone down. To say that he didn't load up on any punches seems a bit off.

Either way, I think its clear what I'm saying. Comparing Louis' chin to Ali is absurd. As for the Wepner knock down, well, I don't think I'm being unfair in saying that that had pretty much everything to do with balance, and perhaps Wepner stepping on Ali's foot, more than it did with that punch. Galento's knock down of Louis had nothing to do with balance, it was a clean knock down.

[Robinson]

I think Ali has a better 'chin' than Louis...I think he
has better powers of recovery, which allows him to
swallow up hard blows and get back up or stay on his
feet.

[dempseyfire]

Well we can start talking about each others selective memories but that would be pointless so I'm not going to bother responding to that. But I do recall in the late rounds that Louis was very badly hurt by a Charles right hand, probably in the 13th or 14th round. I cringed when I saw the shot and how badly Louis was hurt; you can call me a "Louis hater" all you like but I honestly felt bad for Louis, he looked to be in a lot of pain. And I don't think that I need to point out to anyone that Louis was hurt badly by Conn, its one of the most famous moments in boxing history. But what you fail to admit, which I find to be quite absurd, is that there's a rather big difference between being hurt by -174 lbs Billy Conn and being hurt by a big punching Heavyweight in Bonavena. Do I really need to point that out? And Ali was awful in the Bonavena fight, coming off his long exile, while there was nothing wrong with Louis when he fought Conn that I know of.

And as I pointed out in my last post, I do not think that Louis had a "bad chin." Those are your words, not mine. I believe that, as Heavyweight champions go, Louis had an average chin.

I haven't "read about Galento" I've "never heard of his opponents." Thank you for your presumptuous comments, but I don't believe that you're in a position to say that. I didn't deny that Galento was a big puncher for his day, but if you're asking me if I believe that he hit harder than Earnie Shavers my answer is going to be a definite no, and I doubt that I'm alone on that. Shavers' power was respected by guys like Ali and Holmes who fought recognized all time big punchers in Foreman, Liston and Tyson. I'll take that over a guy whose best knockout win was apparently a foul fest against Lou Nova. I also like how you dodged my point about Louis being in his prime against Galento and Ali being 35 and still not going down against Shavers, which is quite a difference.

Louis squared up MUCH more often than Ali and thus was vulnerable to flash KDS, but pluueeze show me any evidence Louis was seriously hurt after the KDs vs Buddy Baer, Galento, Braddock etc. He got right back up, his legs were completly under him, and he went right back to work.

I think that's fair and I would agree with that. But Ali, in his later years, was right in front of Foreman, Frazier, Lyle, Norton, Shavers and others for large portions of their fights and only Frazier managed to drop him, once. That's not something that most fighters can compare with. Another thing is you don't seem to be able to distinguish between being hurt/dropped by a natural Heavyweight and being hurt/dropped by what we would today consider Cruiserweights, if not outright Light Heavyweights like Conn. And I know you'll keep going back to Cooper since that's all people can do when they want to question Ali's chin, but that just doesn't work. Ali was still maturing. I could just as well point out that of the two Louis was the only one to be knocked out, by Schmeling and Marciano, but I haven't harped on that because of Louis' age. But in reality, Ali even in old age showed quite a chin, Holmes and Berbick couldn't knock him out or down even when he was a shade away from Parkinsons.

I'm not trying to argue Louis had as good a chin as Ali, but I am arguing that Louis had a much better than 'average' chin. Taking big shots from the Baer brothers, Galento etc. and surviving shows a much better than average chin, as does only getting stopped twice, at the beginning and tail end of a 64 fight career, by two outstanding fighters and knockout punchers. And don't act like you're giving that a pass. Does the 21 year old Ali that fought Cooper and Jones survive Max Schmeling? Does the 36 year old Ali that lost to Spinks last vs a young Marciano? I say resoundly no. And both Berbick and Holmes did not try to knockout Ali, I believe both could have if they wanted to and then we'd be talking about Ali's career-end KO loss(es).

You are saying Louis was badly hurt vs Galento which is bogus and that it somehow puts his chin into question, whereas not only did Louis take the shots and survive other KO punchers, but Ali was hurt by good punchers several times as well, and only a fool would then try to argue he had an 'average' chin.

[Ambling Alp]

I guess it depends on what is meant by "average". If you mean average as far as the average boxer that steps into the ring, then of course Louis is far better than average. If you mean average as far as heavyweight champions go, then Louis would be "average".

It's sort of like when people say Patterson had a glass jaw. Compared to other heavyweight champions he does. Compared to the small % of fighters who are good enough to fight 10 rounders he has a good chin.

The Ali that fought Cooper and Jones would have went the distance against Schmeling and probably would have beaten him. Ali completely dominated the Cooper fight except for the knockdown.
Jones was competitive but Ali won it even though Jones fought a great fight.

For what it's worth, Berbick would have knocked him out if he could have. Ali actually had a little to offer in that fight.

Again, though we are talking about about Ali before and after his prime.
Ali from 1964-1967, or say after Bonavena fight through 1975 would have had no trouble taking either of the Baer's punches or even the great Tony Galento's mighty shots.

A prime Louis wouldn't have taken Foreman or Shavers best shots, if they landed them. (Of course Louis probably would have got them before they got him.)

A 32 year old Joe Louis would probably have been destroyed by Foreman and a 35 year old Louis probably would have been destroyed by Shavers.

Hard to see Louis getting through Liston and Frazier (3 times), not to mention guys like Patterson,Quarry,Bonavena,Lyle etc. without getting stopped atleast a couple of times a long the way.

I say this not rip Joe Louis who was the 2nd best heavyweight of all time. However, if you compare apples to apples against Ali you come out 2nd best.

[I Feel Fine]

Yes, as alp said, I did not say that Louis had an average chin compared to the general fighter. I said a couple of times that he had an average chin compared to other Heavyweight champions. Big difference, I think.

When I say that Holmes and Berbick failed to knockout Ali I say that knowing that they may not have gone all out, although at times they did go after him pretty hard. What I'm saying is that the punches they hit him with were enough to knockout most fighters who were in Ali's condition. I think that's clear to see.

Louis was hurt against Galento in the first. Say what you like, its there to see. And he was knocked down. If it was a bigger puncher and a better fighter, like Liston, then he may have some more serious problems surviving than he did against Galento. Galento is not a Hall of Fame Heavyweight champion; he's a good puncher but, you know, he's not exactly someone who should be knocking down a top two Heavyweight champion who is in his prime. As I said, the Ali critic will talk about Cooper until they're blue in the face, but Clay was 21, and as robinson said I think its probably true that Ali's chin improved with age and maybe as he got a little bigger and put more weight on. Cooper was not able to land anything on a more mature Ali, and I think questioning Ali's ability to take a left hook can be answered just by watching Manila alone, let alone a lot of his other fights. And, again, there is a major difference between being momentarily stunned by big punching natural Heavyweights like Bonavena and Norton and being hurt rather badly by Billy Conn or being dropped by Jim Braddock. There was more than one occasion in his career where Ali was hit by a tremendous shot, from a big puncher, without even really seeming to have noticed the punch. For example, I re-watched Ali's rematch with Quarry about a week ago, and there's one point in the sixth where Ali is going after Quarry and they're going toe to toe, and throughout the exhange Quarry nailed Ali with a couple of pretty good flush left hooks right on the chin. Ali took them as if they were nothing more than a couple of jabs and kept punching. Now, I have no doubt that Louis would knock Quarry out. But, at the least, if Quarry caught him right on the chin with a flush left hook I would think that Louis might, at the very least, be a little hurt by it. Not just any fighter can take punches that way. Again, I don't think Louis had a bad chin, and I think its perfectly fair to defend Louis' chin, but I don't think that you do that by trying to compare his chin to Ali's.

[dempseyfire]

Galento is not a Hall of Fame Heavyweight champion; he's a good puncher but, you know, he's not exactly someone who should be knocking down a top two Heavyweight champion who is in his prime. As I said, the Ali critic will talk about Cooper until they're blue in the face, but Clay was 21, and as robinson said I think its probably true that Ali's chin improved with age and maybe as he got a little bigger and put more weight on. Cooper was not able to land anything on a more mature Ali, and I think questioning Ali's ability to take a left hook can be answered just by watching Manila alone, let alone a lot of his other fights. And, again, there is a major difference between being momentarily stunned by big punching natural Heavyweights like Bonavena and Norton and being hurt rather badly by Billy Conn or being dropped by Jim Braddock. .

This is where your argument is full of crap.

Louis FOUGHT bigger HWs and took their punches and won. You are talking like Louis never fought punchers as good as Lyle, Liston, Frazier etc. He did, and was victorious. You talk down Buddy Baer but Ali actually never faced a Super HW (6'4 or taller, over 220 lbs) in his entire career who was as good as Baer (or Abe Simon).

If you are going to go ga-ga over flash KDs, Louis was never put on the canvas by anyone as mediorce as Chuck Wepner.

[John Galt]

Just watched some of Louis - Galento on Youtube. Louis was not in any trouble from the knockdown, it was a flash knockdown at the most. With the camera angle, I couldn't see Louis' feet, he might have been off balance. Louis got up, without an 8 count and dominated the fight and punished Galento.
Joe Louis, as always fought like he was demonstrating perfect techniques to a beginner. The punches were perfect, the hand position, the stance, Joe Louis is amazing to watch.

[raylawpc]

Galento is not a Hall of Fame Heavyweight champion; he's a good puncher but, you know, he's not exactly someone who should be knocking down a top two Heavyweight champion who is in his prime. As I said, the Ali critic will talk about Cooper until they're blue in the face, but Clay was 21, and as robinson said I think its probably true that Ali's chin improved with age and maybe as he got a little bigger and put more weight on. Cooper was not able to land anything on a more mature Ali, and I think questioning Ali's ability to take a left hook can be answered just by watching Manila alone, let alone a lot of his other fights. And, again, there is a major difference between being momentarily stunned by big punching natural Heavyweights like Bonavena and Norton and being hurt rather badly by Billy Conn or being dropped by Jim Braddock. .

This is where your argument is full of crap.

Louis FOUGHT bigger HWs and took their punches and won. You are talking like Louis never fought punchers as good as Lyle, Liston, Frazier etc. He did, and was victorious. You talk down Buddy Baer but Ali actually never faced a Super HW (6'4 or taller, over 220 lbs) in his entire career who was as good as Baer (or Abe Simon).

If you are going to go ga-ga over flash KDs, Louis was never put on the canvas by anyone as mediorce as Chuck Wepner.

Dempsey, although I agree with your sentiment, its only fair to point out that Ernie Terrell was 6'6", and Joe Bugner stood 6'4" and weighed around 225.

[John Galt]

Terrell was still below 200 pounds when he fought Eddie Machen in 1965. Not exactly a big heavyweight.

[raylawpc]

At the time Terrell fought Ali he weighed 215 or so, and when he retired I think he weighed about 220 to 225.

Didn't Wepner also stand about 6'5" and weigh in the 220s?

A couple of others that spring to mind: Blue Lewis and Mac Foster both weighed in the 220s when they fought Ali, if I recall correctly. I think Lewis stood about 6'4". I remember him being about my height when I met him.

Oh, and how could we forget Buster Mathis, who weighed about 250-260 when he fought Ali in 1972?

[Ambling Alp]

Obviously size alone doesn't mean you can punch (or are any good for that matter.) If it did, Valuev would have phenomenal power and he can't punch at all. Jameel McCline and Lance Whitaker are 260 plus and can't either.

I wanted to make a point about "flash" knockdowns.
If the knockdowns of Louis against Baer,Braddock, Galento were all "flash" knockdowns, Frazier's knockdown of Ali must have been a "flash" knockdown as well.

[dempseyfire]

Obviously size alone doesn't mean you can punch (or are any good for that matter.) If it did, Valuev would have phenomenal power and he can't punch at all. Jameel McCline and Lance Whitaker are 260 plus and can't either.

I wanted to make a point about "flash" knockdowns.
If the knockdowns of Louis against Baer,Braddock, Galento were all "flash" knockdowns, Frazier's knockdown of Ali must have been a "flash" knockdown as well.

Foster was actually very light vs Ali (around 210) I'd rank Baer well ahead of Wepner and Blue Lewis in overall ability/danger.

Alp, regarding the KD vs Frazier, I would agree it wasn't a bad knockdown. The difference is that Ali spent much of the rest of the round holding and grabbing on to Frazier to regain his feet/prevent further punishment. Louis got up vs Galento, Braddock, Baer, Walcott etc. . .and went right back to fighting . . there was no minute or so of grabbing on to regain his senses.

And Louis in all of his championshop fights never was as wobbly as Ali was vs Frazier in round 11.

Again, I'm not Ali-bashing, but bringing up legitimate points to counter the assertion that Louis had an 'average' chin for a HW champion.

[raylawpc]

Dempsey, I agree with your overall point, but I think Blue Lewis and Ernie Terrell were better fighters than Buddy Baer.

But I reiterate that I AGREE with the point you are making about Louis' ability to take a punch.

[raylawpc]

Hard to see Louis getting through Liston and Frazier (3 times), not to mention guys like Patterson,Quarry,Bonavena,Lyle etc. without getting stopped atleast a couple of times a long the way.

Alp, why is that "hard to see?"

The guy was stopped twice in his career. The first time, he went in overconfident against Schmeling, got hammered early and dropped hard in the 4th, and never really recovered until he was finally stopped in the 12th. The fact he lasted until the 12th is fairly remarkable to me and shows he had a pretty good chin. Schmeling had a good right hand, and he tagged Louis plenty of times with it between the 4th and the 12th, yet Louis stayed on his feet.

Against Marciano, he was obviously past his prime, and lost to a fellow whose star was on the rise and who became an all-time great champion.

Louis got knocked down - sure - but I think Dempsey made a great point about his recuperative powers. Each time he got up, he was clear eyed and on steady legs, ready to fight.

I can not only see Louis "getting through" the guys you list, but winning each time, probably by knockout or stoppage.

[Ambling Alp]

I would make Louis the favorite in each of these fights; however, if you fight that many tough fighters against that many hard punchers he would have been stopped a couple of times along the way.

If you gave Joe Frazier 3 chances to fight Joe Louis, the odds are he going to stop him once. Then add Liston,Foreman, Shavers. No way he get through all those fights without hitting the canvas a few times and being stopped caouple times. Just a matter of when.

A 32 year old Louis would have not have lasted long against a prime Foreman. A 35 year old Louis wouldn't have lasted long against Shavers.
He was knocked out by Schmeling, who wasn't near the puncher that Liston, Frazier, Shavers, or Foreman was. Nor was anyone else that Louis fought until Marciano.
Baer was a hard puncher but allegedly fought Louis with an injured hand, and certainly didn't hit Louis with anything.
If you think Ali would been knocked out by Max Schmeling you are living in dreamland.

We have gone round and round on this.
The important things to consider are:
Who got knocked out more? Louis
Who got decked more? Louis
Who fought weaker opponents? Louis

This isn't brain surgery. Ali had a much better chin than Joe Louis.

[Ambling Alp]

Ok, to fairly judge Louis' chin against other heavyweight champions, lets do them all:

Sullivan- Better chin than Louis
Corbett-Even
Fitz-Louis had better chin
Jeffries-Better chin than Louis
Hart-Even
Burns-Even
Johnson-Better chin than Louis
Willard-Even
Dempsey-Even
Tunney-Better chin than Louis
Schmeling-Even (Though Louis wasn't as bad when hurt.)
Sharkey-Even
Carnera-Louis had better chin
Baer-Better chin than Louis
Braddock-Better chin than Louis
Charles-Even
Walcott-Even
Marciano-Better chin than Louis
Patterson-Louis had better chin
Johansson-Louis had better chin
Liston-Better chin than Louis
Ali-Better chin than Louis
Frazier-Better chin than Louis
Foreman-Better chin than Louis
Leon Spinks -Louis had better chin
Norton-Even
Holmes-Better chin than Louis
Michael Spinks-Louis had better chin
Tyson-Better chin than Louis
Douglas-Even
Holyfield-Better chin than Louis
Bowe-Better chin than Louis
Lewis-Better chin than Louis
Moorer-Louis had better chin

That 17 champions with better chin, 7 worse, 10 about even.
Even if you give Louis the benefit of the doubt over all of the
"evens", it's 17-17. I'm sure you can bendover backwards and give him the edge over a couple more guys, but certainly there are several champions who had better chins.

Compare Louis to the average "Joe" who steps in the ring, than Louis has a great chin.
However, to say that Louis had an average chin for a heavyweight champion is pretty accurrate.

[raylawpc]

To quote our old friend TheOneIsHere2008:

ipse dixit. You make assertions you cannot prove.

[Robinson]

Alp

I dont think that some of those champs you listed had
a better chin than Louis or better recovery. Louis seemed
to be more susceptible to flash KD's, but often recovered
well...not always but often.

[dempseyfire]

Ok, to fairly judge Louis' chin against other heavyweight champions, lets do them all:

Sullivan- Better chin than Louis
Corbett-Even
Fitz-Louis had better chin
Jeffries-Better chin than Louis
Hart-Even
Burns-Even
Johnson-Better chin than Louis
Willard-Even
Dempsey-Even
Tunney-Better chin than Louis
Schmeling-Even (Though Louis wasn't as bad when hurt.)
Sharkey-Even
Carnera-Louis had better chin
Baer-Better chin than Louis
Braddock-Better chin than Louis
Charles-Even
Walcott-Even
Marciano-Better chin than Louis
Patterson-Louis had better chin
Johansson-Louis had better chin
Liston-Better chin than Louis
Ali-Better chin than Louis
Frazier-Better chin than Louis
Foreman-Better chin than Louis
Leon Spinks -Louis had better chin
Norton-Even
Holmes-Better chin than Louis
Michael Spinks-Louis had better chin
Tyson-Better chin than Louis
Douglas-Even
Holyfield-Better chin than Louis
Bowe-Better chin than Louis
Lewis-Better chin than Louis
Moorer-Louis had better chin

That 17 champions with better chin, 7 worse, 10 about even.
Even if you give Louis the benefit of the doubt over all of the
"evens", it's 17-17. I'm sure you can bendover backwards and give him the edge over a couple more guys, but certainly there are several champions who had better chins.

Compare Louis to the average "Joe" who steps in the ring, than Louis has a great chin.
However, to say that Louis had an average chin for a heavyweight champion is pretty accurrate.

Wow, that was incredibly objective and scientifically backed, thank you.

Now I know that Marvin Hart had an equal chin to Joe Louis and that Lennox Lewis took a better punch

[I Feel Fine]

I truly love Louis' hardcore fans.

Buddy Baer had a more dangerous left hook than Frazier... because he was bigger? Ok. I don't think you need to be an Ali or Frazier fan to say that that's obvious nonsense. Louis in his championship fights was never as wobbly as Ali was in the 11th against Frazier... maybe that's because Louis never fought someone of Frazier's quality? That obviously couldn't be. And I'm certain that Louis would have taken those punches, and the punches that Ali took in Manila, and survived the way Ali did. No question he would have. And of course, the fact that he was wobbled at all by -174 lbs Conn is less embarassing than being wobbled by Frazier, because Conn is a top six-seven all time Heavyweight with huge power in his left hook.

Citing the Wepner knockdown is cute, but holds little water. It's a questionable knockdown, and Louis could never dream of absorbing body punches like Ali did.

Louis was not hurt when he got up from the Galento knockdown. He was hurt by Galento in the first round. And if it was Dempsey or Tyson catching him the way Galento did, he might not have gotten up on steady legs, assuming he got up at all.

Ray... Louis at 22 survives Sonny Liston? I'm glad you think so. How about 220 lbs Foreman at age 32? Shavers at 35? Shavers wasn't a "Super Heavyweight", but I think he could hit ok.