"Two Ton" Tony Galento

[Robinson]

I think Buddy Baer did well because of his size and
his awkardness. He is a big, naturally athletic guy
who beat up alot of generally smaller guys.

I dont think Buddy is that special a guy, but he holds
his own against some challengers. I think Joe Frazier
out hooks him all night long...

[raylawpc]

I truly love Louis' hardcore fans.

Buddy Baer had a more dangerous left hook than Frazier... because he was bigger? Ok. I don't think you need to be an Ali or Frazier fan to say that that's obvious nonsense. Louis in his championship fights was never as wobbly as Ali was in the 11th against Frazier... maybe that's because Louis never fought someone of Frazier's quality? That obviously couldn't be. And I'm certain that Louis would have taken those punches, and the punches that Ali took in Manila, and survived the way Ali did. No question he would have. And of course, the fact that he was wobbled at all by -174 lbs Conn is less embarassing than being wobbled by Frazier, because Conn is a top six-seven all time Heavyweight with huge power in his left hook.

Citing the Wepner knockdown is cute, but holds little water. It's a questionable knockdown, and Louis could never dream of absorbing body punches like Ali did.

Louis was not hurt when he got up from the Galento knockdown. He was hurt by Galento in the first round. And if it was Dempsey or Tyson catching him the way Galento did, he might not have gotten up on steady legs, assuming he got up at all.

Ray... Louis at 22 survives Sonny Liston? I'm glad you think so. How about 220 lbs Foreman at age 32? Shavers at 35? Shavers wasn't a "Super Heavyweight", but I think he could hit ok.

We are not talking about who was the best heavyweight. We are discussing the quality of Louis' chin. You and Alp suggest Louis had an "ordinary" chin, at best. You haven't convinced me.

I think the better question is whether those guys could have survived Louis' power, not vice versa.

[Ambling Alp]

Ok, to fairly judge Louis' chin against other heavyweight champions, lets do them all:

Sullivan- Better chin than Louis
Corbett-Even
Fitz-Louis had better chin
Jeffries-Better chin than Louis
Hart-Even
Burns-Even
Johnson-Better chin than Louis
Willard-Even
Dempsey-Even
Tunney-Better chin than Louis
Schmeling-Even (Though Louis wasn't as bad when hurt.)
Sharkey-Even
Carnera-Louis had better chin
Baer-Better chin than Louis
Braddock-Better chin than Louis
Charles-Even
Walcott-Even
Marciano-Better chin than Louis
Patterson-Louis had better chin
Johansson-Louis had better chin
Liston-Better chin than Louis
Ali-Better chin than Louis
Frazier-Better chin than Louis
Foreman-Better chin than Louis
Leon Spinks -Louis had better chin
Norton-Even
Holmes-Better chin than Louis
Michael Spinks-Louis had better chin
Tyson-Better chin than Louis
Douglas-Even
Holyfield-Better chin than Louis
Bowe-Better chin than Louis
Lewis-Better chin than Louis
Moorer-Louis had better chin

That 17 champions with better chin, 7 worse, 10 about even.
Even if you give Louis the benefit of the doubt over all of the
"evens", it's 17-17. I'm sure you can bendover backwards and give him the edge over a couple more guys, but certainly there are several champions who had better chins.

Compare Louis to the average "Joe" who steps in the ring, than Louis has a great chin.
However, to say that Louis had an average chin for a heavyweight champion is pretty accurrate.

Wow, that was incredibly objective and scientifically backed, thank you.

Now I know that Marvin Hart had an equal chin to Joe Louis and that Lennox Lewis took a better punch

What are you laughing about? For you to think Louis had a better chin you would have to think that Louis would have been been hurt less and knocked out less than Lewis was against Lewis' opponents. We talking about 2 times in 44 fights, one of them being premature.

You don't go through all of those fights against Tua, Briggs,Tyson, Holyfield, Morrison,Mercer, Bruno etc. without being decked and seldom hurt without having a very good chin.

Lennox Lewis didn't have a good chin" may be one of the biggest myths in boxing.

Ok, I will give you Marvin Hart, as I said you could with anyone listed as even. That's still 17 of 34 guys that had better chin than Louis. That's average for a heavyweight champion.

More importantly, how many of the other 34 heavyweight champions do you think Louis had a better chin than?

[Ambling Alp]

To quote our old friend TheOneIsHere2008:

ipse dixit. You make assertions you cannot prove.

It's called an opinion. Most of what is talked about here is opinion. You can't prove that Louis was a hard puncher, but most people look at his fights and use commonsense and realize that he was a very hard puncher.

I'm basing it on knockouts, knockdowns, times hurt, amount of fights, film, stages of fighter's career and quality of oppositon. Of course it's not an exact science but you can make reasonable conclusions.

Feel free to give us your own opinions on which champions Louis had a better than.

I also wanted to respond to a comment that you made on another post.
We are not talking about who was the best heavyweight. We are discussing the quality of Louis' chin. You and Alp suggest Louis had an "ordinary" chin, at best. You haven't convinced me.

I think the better question is whether those guys could have survived Louis' power, not vice versa.

I truly love Louis' hardcore fans.

Buddy Baer had a more dangerous left hook than Frazier... because he was bigger? Ok. I don't think you need to be an Ali or Frazier fan to say that that's obvious nonsense. Louis in his championship fights was never as wobbly as Ali was in the 11th against Frazier... maybe that's because Louis never fought someone of Frazier's quality? That obviously couldn't be. And I'm certain that Louis would have taken those punches, and the punches that Ali took in Manila, and survived the way Ali did. No question he would have. And of course, the fact that he was wobbled at all by -174 lbs Conn is less embarassing than being wobbled by Frazier, because Conn is a top six-seven all time Heavyweight with huge power in his left hook.

Citing the Wepner knockdown is cute, but holds little water. It's a questionable knockdown, and Louis could never dream of absorbing body punches like Ali did.

Louis was not hurt when he got up from the Galento knockdown. He was hurt by Galento in the first round. And if it was Dempsey or Tyson catching him the way Galento did, he might not have gotten up on steady legs, assuming he got up at all.

Ray... Louis at 22 survives Sonny Liston? I'm glad you think so. How about 220 lbs Foreman at age 32? Shavers at 35? Shavers wasn't a "Super Heavyweight", but I think he could hit ok.

"We are not talking about who was the best heavyweight. We are discussing the quality of Louis' chin. You and Alp suggest Louis had an "ordinary" chin, at best. You haven't convinced me.

I think the better question is whether those guys could have survived Louis' power, not vice versa."

You are right, we aren't talking about who was the best heavyweight right now. We are discussing the quality of Louis' chin.

However the better question is not as you say whether these guys could have survived Louis power, not vice versa.
We aren't talking about Louis' power, we are talking about his chin.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

The documentary evidence suggests Ali is being down against Wepner was the result of a slip as he was standing on his foot...

[raylawpc]

To quote our old friend TheOneIsHere2008:

ipse dixit. You make assertions you cannot prove.

It's called an opinion. Most of what is talked about here is opinion. You can't prove that Louis was a hard puncher, but most people look at his fights and use commonsense and realize that he was a very hard puncher.

I'm basing it on knockouts, knockdowns, times hurt, amount of fights, film, stages of fighter's career and quality of oppositon. Of course it's not an exact science but you can make reasonable conclusions.

Feel free to give us your own opinions on which champions Louis had a better than.

I don't know or particularly care who Louis had a better chin than. But I think its a reasonable conclusion that a fellow who (1) is listed on every all-time top-ten list I've ever seen (many times in the top 5), (2) who was only stopped twice in his career - and both times to men who had been or would become heavyweight champion, (3) engaged in 25 title defenses and held the title for a decade, and (4) fought all the best guys around (he ducked nobody) had better than average whiskers.

[Ambling Alp]

Again, we are saying that for a heavyweight champion Louis had an average chin.

1. Yes, almost everyone has him in their top 10. (I have him #2)
2. Yes, he was stopped only twice in career.
3. Yes, he had 25 defenses and held the title for more than a decade.
4. No, he didn't fight all of the best guys around. (He never fought Elmer Ray or Turkey Thompson, and didn't fight Jimmy Bivins until they were both past it.)

If you are going to legitimately say that he had a really good chin for a heavyweight champion, then you have to actually look at the other heavyweight champions as well.

You have to look at how many times they were stopped, knocked down, hurt, who they fought.

Louis was not a great fighter because of his chin. Most of his other areas were superior. He was great because of his power, his accurracy, his jab, his combinations, his ability to finish off opponents who were hurt etc.

[dempseyfire]

I think Buddy Baer did well because of his size and
his awkardness. He is a big, naturally athletic guy
who beat up alot of generally smaller guys.

I dont think Buddy is that special a guy, but he holds
his own against some challengers. I think Joe Frazier
out hooks him all night long...

I never said Baer was nearly as good A FIGHTER as Frazier, of course in a fight Frazier would defeat Baer. But for pure POWER, I give the edge to Baer. Frazier had a powerful left hook but he didn't flatten guys with one punch consistently like Buddy did.


As for a comparison to Lennox's chin . . .Louis fought much better guys than overweight Tua, Mercer, Shannon Briggs etc. In a 68 fight career, and like Lewis lost by knockout twice. The difference being, he lost by KO to two great champions at the beginning and tail end of his careers AFTER taking considerable punishment prior, whereas Lewis was flattened by one shot by fringe contenders. The gulf is vast.

Louis would've ended matters extremely early vs the likes of Morrison, Bruno, Briggs and also would've stopped Tua late after beating him up badly. In fact, I'd say the flat-footed plodding Tua that fought Lennox was not much better than Galento and was certainly inferior to Arturo Godoy . . at least Galento kept throwing punches/being aggressive and didn't stand there and eat jabs like Tua did vs Lewis and Rahman.

[raylawpc]

Again, we are saying that for a heavyweight champion Louis had an average chin.

1. Yes, almost everyone has him in their top 10. (I have him #2)
2. Yes, he was stopped only twice in career.
3. Yes, he had 25 defenses and held the title for more than a decade.
4. No, he didn't fight all of the best guys around. (He never fought Elmer Ray or Turkey Thompson, and didn't fight Jimmy Bivins until they were both past it.)

If you are going to legitimately say that he had a really good chin for a heavyweight champion, then you have to actually look at the other heavyweight champions as well.

You have to look at how many times they were stopped, knocked down, hurt, who they fought.

Louis was not a great fighter because of his chin. Most of his other areas were superior. He was great because of his power, his accurracy, his jab, his combinations, his ability to finish off opponents who were hurt etc.

Are you suggesting Louis ducked Elmer Ray, Turkey Thompson and Jimmy Bivins?

[Ambling Alp]

No. I'm sure that Louis wasn't afraid of any of them.
Sometimes fights don't happen because of promoters (and in more recent times governing bodies) or for other reasons. Louis may have fought Bivins around 1942 or 1943 if it wasn't for World War II. I'm just saying that he didn't beat all of the best fighters around. All 3 were much better than most of the fighters that Louis did defend the title against.

They were good enough that it was too much of a risk to fight them; however not quite good enough where Louis would be constantly accused of ducking them.

Louis probably would have beaten all three, but the bottom line is that he didn't.

[I Feel Fine]

We are not talking about who was the best heavyweight. We are discussing the quality of Louis' chin. You and Alp suggest Louis had an "ordinary" chin, at best. You haven't convinced me.

I think the better question is whether those guys could have survived Louis' power, not vice versa.

I'm aware of what the discussion is. I've been paying attention. Not sure that you have, as no where have I said that Louis had an ordinary chin. I said he had an average chin for a Heavyweight champion. If you want to suggest that Louis' chin is up there with Dempsey's, Marciano's, Ali's, Frazier's, Holmes', Holyfield's and some others like Tyson or Liston who had less heart than Louis but probably better chins, you have some work to do.

Do I think Liston against a 22 year old Louis and Foreman against a 32 year old Louis could have survived? Probably. Shavers, maybe, if Louis is 35. Even so, the question isn't about who had the best chin among these men, though I think Liston and Foreman probably did have better chins than Louis, and the question isn't who among these men who have won. The question is did Joe Louis have the chin to survive if one of these men hit him the way Galento did. I think that's a bit doubtfull.

As for dempseyfire's post... I think it kind of speaks for itself. A Heavyweight walking into the ring with Buddy Baer is in greater danger of being knocked out than a Heavyweight walking into the ring with Joe Frazier. I don't think that really requires a response. Certainly dempsey didn't bother to respond when I questioned whether being hurt badly hurt by Frazier in the 11th round of their fight is as embarassing as being hurt by -174 lbs Conn.

This conversation, as far as I can tell, is going all over the place. I'm not even sure what some of you are trying to say. Clearly you disagree that Louis' chin was "average" for a Heavyweight champion, but are you saying that it was above average or are you saying that it was great for a Heavyweight champion? And when you mention Ali, are you saying that Louis' chin was as good as Ali's chin, or are you perhaps saying that he had a better chin? Perhaps some of you could clear this up for me.

[The Great John L]

Wow, it's hard to even comment on some of these posts. For those questioning Louis's chin, please consider his fighting style and defensive capabilities. While Joe was nearly a flawless offensive fighter, his defense was pretty ordinary, and he was almost constantly moving forward. Think about the physics of a fighter moving into another fighter and what that means, and you might have a slightly different opinion.

Louis didn't have Chuvalo's chin, but it was certainly better than some are saying in this thread. And the post comparing him to all of the other HW champs was pretty sad.

[I Feel Fine]

Well a majority of Heavyweight champions would come forward in their fights, Louis was not the only one. But, besides Patterson, Louis got knocked down more than any prominent linear Heavyweight champion that I can think of. I think Frazier was knocked down as many times, almost all of those coming against Foreman who was a bigger puncher than anyone Louis met. And Louis was hurt by more fighters who weighed less than 200 pounds than any Heavyweight champion that I can think of, at least post-1920s. Dempsey was hurt by Carpentier and Marciano was dropped by Moore, but, even then, those two hit harder than Conn and Braddock. I don't see the case for saying that Louis' chin was "great" compared to other Heavyweight champions. Not bad, but not great.

[kikibalt]

Again, we are saying that for a heavyweight champion Louis had an average chin.

1. Yes, almost everyone has him in their top 10. (I have him #2)
2. Yes, he was stopped only twice in career.
3. Yes, he had 25 defenses and held the title for more than a decade.
4. No, he didn't fight all of the best guys around. (He never fought Elmer Ray or Turkey Thompson, and didn't fight Jimmy Bivins until they were both past it.)

If you are going to legitimately say that he had a really good chin for a heavyweight champion, then you have to actually look at the other heavyweight champions as well.

You have to look at how many times they were stopped, knocked down, hurt, who they fought.

Louis was not a great fighter because of his chin. Most of his other areas were superior. He was great because of his power, his accurracy, his jab, his combinations, his ability to finish off opponents who were hurt etc.

Are you suggesting Louis ducked Elmer Ray, Turkey Thompson and Jimmy Bivins?

I seen both Thompson and Bivins fight live, and imo these guys were not in Louis's class.

[raylawpc]

We are not talking about who was the best heavyweight. We are discussing the quality of Louis' chin. You and Alp suggest Louis had an "ordinary" chin, at best. You haven't convinced me.

I think the better question is whether those guys could have survived Louis' power, not vice versa.

I'm aware of what the discussion is. I've been paying attention. Not sure that you have, as no where have I said that Louis had an ordinary chin. I said he had an average chin for a Heavyweight champion. If you want to suggest that Louis' chin is up there with Dempsey's, Marciano's, Ali's, Frazier's, Holmes', Holyfield's and some others like Tyson or Liston who had less heart than Louis but probably better chins, you have some work to do.

Do I think Liston against a 22 year old Louis and Foreman against a 32 year old Louis could have survived? Probably. Shavers, maybe, if Louis is 35. Even so, the question isn't about who had the best chin among these men, though I think Liston and Foreman probably did have better chins than Louis, and the question isn't who among these men who have won. The question is did Joe Louis have the chin to survive if one of these men hit him the way Galento did. I think that's a bit doubtfull.

As for dempseyfire's post... I think it kind of speaks for itself. A Heavyweight walking into the ring with Buddy Baer is in greater danger of being knocked out than a Heavyweight walking into the ring with Joe Frazier. I don't think that really requires a response. Certainly dempsey didn't bother to respond when I questioned whether being hurt badly hurt by Frazier in the 11th round of their fight is as embarassing as being hurt by -174 lbs Conn.

This conversation, as far as I can tell, is going all over the place. I'm not even sure what some of you are trying to say. Clearly you disagree that Louis' chin was "average" for a Heavyweight champion, but are you saying that it was above average or are you saying that it was great for a Heavyweight champion? And when you mention Ali, are you saying that Louis' chin was as good as Ali's chin, or are you perhaps saying that he had a better chin? Perhaps some of you could clear this up for me.

How's this: I don't know and I don't care if Louis' chin was better than Ali's. Probably not. Ali was double-tough by any definition. But by the same token, I don't think Louis' chin was average compared to any group of fighters, and I don't think it was a disgrace for Louis to be knocked down by a hitter like Tony Galento.

Did that clear things up for ya?

[I Feel Fine]

How's this: I don't know and I don't care if Louis' chin was better than Ali's. Probably not. Ali was double-tough by any definition. But by the same token, I don't think Louis' chin was average compared to any group of fighters, and I don't think it was a disgrace for Louis to be knocked down by a hitter like Tony Galento.

Did that clear things up for ya?

Yes, thank you.

But as for the comment that its "no disgrace" to be knocked down by Galento; well what does that really mean? Maybe its no disgrace to be knocked down by any professional fighter, but that's irrelevant. There's Tony Galento and then there's George Foreman and Mike Tyson. I know that some here are trying to depict Galento as some sort of top ten all time Heavyweight puncher, but he wasn't exactly that. I go back to my original point; what if it was Dempsey or Liston? Not only can they likely hurt you or knock you down, they can also finish you when you're hurt. Does Galento have their finishing ability? People here are talking about Louis' less than perfect defensive ability, or the fact that he comes forward and so he might take more punches; so what? Doesn't that merely go to the point I was making? If you get knocked down does the referee give you an extra five seconds to get up because you were coming towards your opponent at the time? No.

In my original post I simply said that Louis being hurt and later dropped by Galento raises questions in my mind about whether or not Louis could survive if he was caught with a big shot by a true Heavyweight great with real power and with real ability. I don't see anything here that weakens that doubt. All I see is a lot of tangents about this or that which address little other than the fact that some folks can't seem to find it in themselves to be objective about the Brown Bomber, who is rarely put to any kind of scrutiny. Which is of course obvious in this thread, that when I posed a question about Louis some people's first reaction was to instead turn around and start criticizing Ali, which was a total non sequitur. Quite ironic, and also quite typical.


I should just add that besides the beginning of this post, most of the rest of it is not directed specifically to ray, it isn't directed to any one person. I don't want there to be any confusion there.

[Expug]

As far as Galento goes,the film I have seen of him he looked extremely awkward and wild but strong.
Understand, sometimes guys like that throw a fighters timing off .You can be a real polished fighter but a dude that is wild can really upset your rythym .
You might get hit by shots from him that you might not expect.
Its hard to train for a guy like Galento.
A guy like Louis is thinking about dealing with jabs crosses and hooks.Not haymakers from everywhere.

[dempseyfire]

As far as Galento goes,the film I have seen of him he looked extremely awkward and wild but strong.
Understand, sometimes guys like that throw a fighters timing off .You can be a real polished fighter but a dude that is wild can really upset your rythym .
You might get hit by shots from him that you might not expect.
Its hard to train for a guy like Galento.
A guy like Louis is thinking about dealing with jabs crosses and hooks.Not haymakers from everywhere.

Exactly.

IFF seems to want to make believe that all Heavyweights circa post 1965 punched harder than HWs in the 1930s and 40s.

In terms of punching power, I'll line up Max Baer, Buddy Baer, Tony Galento, Max Schmeling next to Ken Norton, Sonny Liston, Ron Lyle etc. Galento had more career knockouts than Liston, Lyle, and Norton did total career fights (and Tyson minus 2) Alan Sugar who posts at the CBZ regularly says he saw both Galento and Liston hit the heavy bag and that he's never seen any fighter hit the heavy bag harder than an old fat Galento did circa 1960. The guy had a very big left hook knockout shot that stopped some very good and durable HWs such as Nathan Mann, Otis Thomas, Al Ettore, and Leroy Haynes, but since you don't know anything about these fighters you just dismiss them and write off Galento as a subpar fighter. And that's your fatal flaw . . dismissal due to ignorance.

Now Ali fought a better list of opponents overall, I won't argue that point. But Louis fought a very dangerous field filled with some VERY hard punchers. And he only lost by KO twice in 68 fights. It takes an EXCELLENT set of whiskers to last vs the best for over a decade fighting almost every month.

[I Feel Fine]

Yes, I'm ignorant and know nothing of boxing prior to '65. Dempseyfire has the inside knowledge on what I know and don't know, of course.

Some guys hit hard. Some guys hit hard and have boxing skill. Max Baer, Buddy Baer, Tony Galento hit hard, whether they hit as hard as Liston or Lyle is another thing, we can never really know that but I think we can have our own assumptions. But what we do know, I think, is that Frazier and Liston were a bit more skilled or at least a bit more talented over all than the Baer brothers and Galento. Pick some random fighter, any fighter, I'll bet that there's a better chance that Liston or Frazier KO that fighter than there is of the Baer brothers or Galento KOing him. I think you have to be quite ignorant of boxing history not to.

And its not just about "post-65." I'll add Dempsey to that, I'll add Jeffries to that. Tony Galento is not the most dangerous Heavyweight puncher in boxing history, only an idiot would say that, frankly. There's more to it than just raw power, Shavers hit harder than a prime Tyson, as Holmes would attest to, but you're more likely to get KO'd by prime Tyson. Even if Galento did hypothetically hit harder than some of these fighters, that doesn't make him a more dangerous puncher.

And I think expug's post is absolutely right. But it doesn't contradict my point, as dempseyfire is somehow implying. If anything it goes to my point; what if the wild puncher is Jack Dempsey and Louis gets caught in the wild fury of Dempsey's haymakers?

We know one thing for certain, though, that Liston and Frazier and Lyle didn't hit harder than Braddock and Conn. Dempseyfire can guarantee that to us too, I'm certain.

Either way, I would like to hear dempseyfire's answer to my question above, just for clarities sake; are you saying that Louis' chin is up there with the best Heavyweight chins, or just above average for a Heavyweight champion? Just so I can have that clear, nothing too devious about these questions. What exactly is your position? And do you believe that Louis' chin is as good as Ali's or perhaps better, or almost as good?

[raylawpc]

what if the wild puncher is Jack Dempsey and Louis gets caught in the wild fury of Dempsey's haymakers?

I don't know; but I suspect you are certain what would happen.

[I Feel Fine]

what if the wild puncher is Jack Dempsey and Louis gets caught in the wild fury of Dempsey's haymakers?

I don't know; but I suspect you are certain what would happen.

I'm not certain of anything. As I said, I have "doubts" that Louis would survive, I haven't said he is guaranteed to be KO'd. But of course its sacrilegious for a boxing fan to even speculate about Louis possibly being KO'd by a better fighter than Galento or Buddy Baer because, as dempseyfire would say, these are the great Heavyweight punchers. Not Shavers and Foreman. Pretty soon he'll start telling us that they were even more dangerous as punchers than Louis himself...

[raylawpc]

what if the wild puncher is Jack Dempsey and Louis gets caught in the wild fury of Dempsey's haymakers?

I don't know; but I suspect you are certain what would happen.

I'm not certain of anything. As I said, I have "doubts" that Louis would survive, I haven't said he is guaranteed to be KO'd. But of course its sacrilegious for a boxing fan to even speculate about Louis possibly being KO'd by a better fighter than Galento or Buddy Baer because, as dempseyfire would say, these are the great Heavyweight punchers. Not Shavers and Foreman. Pretty soon he'll start telling us that they were even more dangerous as punchers than Louis himself...

I was beginning to wonder. You sounded so certain.

[dempseyfire]

Yes, I'm ignorant and know nothing of boxing prior to '65. Dempseyfire has the inside knowledge on what I know and don't know, of course.

Some guys hit hard. Some guys hit hard and have boxing skill. Max Baer, Buddy Baer, Tony Galento hit hard, whether they hit as hard as Liston or Lyle is another thing, we can never really know that but I think we can have our own assumptions. But what we do know, I think, is that Frazier and Liston were a bit more skilled or at least a bit more talented over all than the Baer brothers and Galento. Pick some random fighter, any fighter, I'll bet that there's a better chance that Liston or Frazier KO that fighter than there is of the Baer brothers or Galento KOing him. I think you have to be quite ignorant of boxing history not to.

And its not just about "post-65." I'll add Dempsey to that, I'll add Jeffries to that. Tony Galento is not the most dangerous Heavyweight puncher in boxing history, only an idiot would say that, frankly. There's more to it than just raw power, Shavers hit harder than a prime Tyson, as Holmes would attest to, but you're more likely to get KO'd by prime Tyson. Even if Galento did hypothetically hit harder than some of these fighters, that doesn't make him a more dangerous puncher.

And I think expug's post is absolutely right. But it doesn't contradict my point, as dempseyfire is somehow implying. If anything it goes to my point; what if the wild puncher is Jack Dempsey and Louis gets caught in the wild fury of Dempsey's haymakers?

We know one thing for certain, though, that Liston and Frazier and Lyle didn't hit harder than Braddock and Conn. Dempseyfire can guarantee that to us too, I'm certain.

Either way, I would like to hear dempseyfire's answer to my question above, just for clarities sake; are you saying that Louis' chin is up there with the best Heavyweight chins, or just above average for a Heavyweight champion? Just so I can have that clear, nothing too devious about these questions. What exactly is your position? And do you believe that Louis' chin is as good as Ali's or perhaps better, or almost as good?

It's impossible to say whose was better. Ali faced the overall tougher comp and I'd say the evidence available points to him having the better chin overall.

But never have I seen someone's career get nitpicked like Louis is in this thread. I suppose Tyson had a crap chin as het got KTFO by light-hitting Buster Douglas in his prime and later got swiped off by puffed-up Holyfield, Danny Williams and Kevin frikkin' McBride . . .Max Schmeling and Marciano were just power-puff middleweights in comparison . . ..

Foreman was put down by Jimmy Young (and lost!) and put on queer street several times by Lyle . . .and by Ali . . .his chin must have sucked.

Louis taking power shots from Max Baer, Buddy Baer, Lou Nova, Tony Galento, Jersey Joe Walcott and coming back clear headed and winning . . .that doesn't matter, they wern't fighting in the disco era, when everything was superior.
I concede, I concede!

[I Feel Fine]

You still haven't answered my main question. Did Louis, in your view, have an "above average" chin for a Heavyweight champion, or a "great" chin for a Heavyweight champion? If you're saying that he had a great chin for a Heavyweight champion then I think you're dreaming, frankly. If you're saying his chin was above average, well, that's not very different from what I'm saying, in which case you're the one nitpicking. So which is it?

You've never seen a fighter "nitpicked" like Louis has been here? That's a laugh. The idea that I'm nitpicking about Louis is ridiculous. As I said, next to Patterson and along with Frazier he was knocked down more than any other great/Hall of Fame linear Heavyweight champion, and it wasn't George Foreman knocking him down. And he was hurt by more fighters who weighed less than 200 lbs than any other "modern" Heavyweight champion. That's not nothing. Again, that doesn't mean he had a "bad" chin, just not a "great" chin and it raises questions about how he would take a big punch from a fellow great punching Heavyweight champion. You've cited Ali being hurt in the 11th by Frazier as some sort of evidence of Ali's chin being less than what has been said, yet you won't even address Conn hurting Louis. I think one would have to think long and hard to come up with a fighter as small and with such little reputation for punching power as Conn, even in his own weight classes, who was able to hurt such a prominent linear Heavyweight champion who was in his prime. I don't think its off base to say that.

As for your last paragraph; please. Max Baer hit Louis with a couple of power shots, probably half blocked, he spent most of the fight taking punches, not giving. Buddy Baer and Galento were plodding sluggers with average skill. Walcott dropped him three times. Again, being dropped by Walcott three times does not mean you have a bad chin. But a great chin? For a Heavyweight champion?

As for the "disco era", again, I haven't said that fighters from that era or later were bigger punchers. Those are your words. I've cited fighters from before and after Louis' era who might have stopped him if they hit him the way Galento did. But, of course, Dempsey and Liston weren't as dangerous as Two Ton Tony.

[Ambling Alp]

It is humourous to to hear that Louis is nitpicked on this forum. We hear anti-Ali crap here virtually everyday. However, when someone makes a fairly obvious observation about Louis; chin people freak out.

For the umpteenth time, we are comparing Louis to other heavyweight champions; therefore you have to actually look at the other heavyweight champions. Sounds crazy, doesn't it?

Wow, it's hard to even comment on some of these posts. For those questioning Louis's chin, please consider his fighting style and defensive capabilities. While Joe was nearly a flawless offensive fighter, his defense was pretty ordinary, and he was almost constantly moving forward. Think about the physics of a fighter moving into another fighter and what that means, and you might have a slightly different opinion.

Louis didn't have Chuvalo's chin, but it was certainly better than some are saying in this thread. And the post comparing him to all of the other HW champs was pretty sad.

Specifically, which heavyweight champions that I listed as having a better chin than Louis would you disagree with?

Would be nice for dempseyfire and raylaw to specifically name them as well.