Beijing Reflections from Jim Millman, ED USA Boxing

[lukerunion]

Mel,

I'm talking about coaches using the books with their boxers - but i think i did say clinicians. i don't think the passbook replaces the rule book, but come on, how many athletes sit down and ever get to see a rule book or go out of their way to see it. put some info within their reach, in a passbook. thats the idea. better than nothing and not really up for debate because the officials committee got it done.

I won't comment on what Jim could have or is said he should have done because it doesn't changs what happened. Bottom line, Dan resigned today and I think everyone saw that coming. If he didn't, I think Jim would have removed him after the Olympics. I believe Jim has learned a lot from the Olympic experience and don't question his intelligence as a leader capable to run the organization. I like Dan as a person. If everything I've heard is true, the negatives outweigh the positives in this case and he shouldn't have been the Olympic Coach. Bottom line, he tried to present a program that could have been ahead of its time in the residency program - and our lone medalist was the least experienced who "soaked it up like a sponge". Any discussion of his faults are irrelevant now, because we should be looking for a way to put an individual in his position where they will succeed and have the tools to succeed. We can reflect and learn from his mistakes, certainly, but I honestly think he wanted to win. I want to believe he did his best and it just wasn't good enough.

I understand the scope of USA Boxing and it entails a lot of areas of growth and development. I used to think like you but I got to learn more when I saw this slide at a BOD meeting in LA as an alternate to the AAC. http://collegeboxing.googlepages.com/IMG.pdf
Jim said to show people if they don't understand the scope so otherwise I wouldn't post materials from the meeting.

I think the 2008 plan was scrapped when A2P, 2 ED's, the BOG, etc fell apart. What we got was a spackle job. Now I feel confident we have solidarity going into 2012, or will have some soon as the smoke clears.

Holding my breath means I won't stoop to the level to make negative comments about someone or get into business that is not privy to the entire membership including myself. He said she said this that and the other is what some people live for and all of it is detrimental to improving amateur boxing. I'm not afraid to speak about what I think is right. I don't believe any individuals are at fault. As a team, the unit failed because it never was cohesive - and I agree lacked leadership where necessary. I think Rau'shee was a great leader and the entire team was not void of all leadership.

I didn't ask how it "used" to happen about coaches selection - I want to know if there is a potential better way than that. I have heard but am not familiar with the details of that clause so I can't really comment on its adherence/nonadherence.

I agree that the residency program should have been announced with its mandates prior. I said every personal coach cannot attend an olympics so your question contradicts my statement. If we are a host country, IF, why couldnt we arrange them to be in the vicinity of the city to help? either way i agree they should be a part of the program.

Not reasing details neither adds nor detracts fodder - posters do such things. Why doesn't it make perfect sense that NOW that ODLH is available to help and financially more than secure - he wants to do so to the best of his ability? why would we expect him to do it before he was ready or able? I can tell you first right of refusal has nothing to do with the arrangements and A2P wanted to play ALL the strings!!!!

I hadn't heard that from the events department about an ODLH tournament - I spoke Mr. King on the phone, and he told me himself, being a tv person, it wasn't something he wanted to give up. Maybe you just don't like the events people?

You are sKeptical about everything so it seems...

Yes, LBC volunteers handle everything now - but why? - If money was not an object - wouldn't we want to alleviate the burden and allow them to do what they really want to do in amateur boxing? Most volunteers wear many hats. Why can't our officials be paid such as in youth soccer/football/basketball leagues? Then we hold them more accountable to the standards of the organization - and expect them to maintain these standards if they want to continue to be paid... Typically they get some gas money from an event but it isn't any contract with usa boxing other than the code of conduct which I believe gets violated.

I am not sure why a study is needed to figure out where they need help the most. When travel money was taken away from the nationals - i think it was obvious that money could lend a helping hand more than gloves, uniforms, or a buffet. if its not money, what is it?

The 1700 grant from Mesquite is something different from the 10,000. You are confused because you don't have your information straight and are talking about something else. Which is why its probably so interesting to you...


why is there no communication in your lbc???? you are all over the internet!! teach them to use email and then start communicating with them. email USAB in colorado if you have an operational question and share it with them. I don't get it Mel, for someone your age, no offense, you are ahead of the curve in terms of the internet. now i don't expect every lbc to be as active online as you or I right now, but come on... get the ball rolling and do something about it yourself!

i dont think we go back to the board of governors because i like the idea that was presented in pittsburg where the organization is run like a business to be profitable - and under profitable circumstances - we can have more success. I wasn't involved or around in that time so I don't care to further comment other than what I've heard is that many people never could get on the same page - and would blackball/lobby/influence the vote with petty power trip issues - and the good ole boy system was too much in effect. i think this new structure is more in alignment with what i've seen and learned about from other successful organizations like ours. what other ngbs have boards of governors that are successful and we could model from if we went back to that way?

we didn't medal, but we did get robbed in some bouts and we could have. I too, anxiously await JMAC's synopsis on monday. we didn't meet our medal markers and yes i understand how that works, but i don't think it will be an issue because thankfully!!! we have jim millman who has already done an excellent job getting us set up to the point that I don't think the lack of USOC funds is going to hurt our operating expenses. so without jim - i think we still do poorly, but then have no money!

[lukerunion]

bigpicture, i'll respond to you next, but i don't have time right now. i got exhausting tunnel carpel typing that for mel

[boxmel]

put some info within their reach, in a passbook. thats the idea. better than nothing and not really up for debate because the officials committee got it done.

How many athletes even have their passbooks? I think Kidscoach already raised that question. And everything is up for debate, done deal or not.

Bottom line, he (Dan) tried to present a program that could have been ahead of its time in the residency program

I understand the scope of USA Boxing and it entails a lot of areas of growth and development. I used to think like you but I got to learn more when I saw this slide at a BOD meeting in LA as an alternate to the AAC. http://collegeboxing.googlepages.com/IMG.pdf

I don't think we're speaking the same language. I looked at the slide. It's nicely done - just like the slide presentation in Mesquite. I'm waiting to see what happens and it really doesn't change my thinking. When I start to see results rather than slides, I might change my opinion.

said to show people if they don't understand the scope so otherwise I wouldn't post materials from the meeting.

The scope shown on the slide is the same kind of scope shown in Mesquite. I understand Millman's scope as I have understood the scope of every ED and USAB president for the past 21 years. Doesn't mean it's ever become a reality.

If we are a host country, IF, why couldnt we arrange them to be in the vicinity of the city to help?

Help how? They wouldn't be allowed in the venue or designated training areas and who would pay for travel, lodging and food? Oscar?

I

can tell you first right of refusal has nothing to do with the arrangements and A2P wanted to play ALL the strings!!!!

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Maybe you just don't like the events people?

Tsk, tsk, Luke - now you're bringing in personalities. There is a world of difference in what the Events Dept. has produced in the last three years compared to the Events produced prior to that and over the 21 years I've been involved. My thoughts have nothing to do whether I've liked the people in that department or not.

You are sKeptical about everything so it seems...

And why can't I be? I'm just commenting from what I've seen for a very long time. I'm sure my skepticism will go away if I see positives actually begin to happen.

Yes, LBC volunteers handle everything now - but why? - If money was not an object - wouldn't we want to alleviate the burden and allow them to do what they really want to do in amateur boxing?

And what is it they really want to do, Luke? I enjoyed doing registrations; I enjoy doing tournament admin - those joys are not a burden.

Why can't our officials be paid such as in youth soccer/football/basketball leagues?

Why don't you research that one and let me know? I believe it has a lot to do with our non-profit status and charter.

Then we hold them more accountable to the standards of the organization - and expect them to maintain these standards if they want to continue to be paid...

Yes - and it would make it much easier to fire anyone you didn't like or didn't agree with. We could hold people accountable to the standards now if those in charge had any huevos.

Typically they get some gas money from an event but it isn't any contract with usa boxing other than the code of conduct which I believe gets violated.

Gas money is not guaranteed by any means. Not every club can afford that cost. The only "contract" we have is the waiver we sign on the yearly membership registration form. The Officials Code of Conduct is only signed at certain national tournaments and if you believe it gets violated, you know more than I do. The athletes are more inclined to violate their Code of Conduct (I've seen many instances of this over the years).
I

am not sure why a study is needed to figure out where they need help the most. When travel money was taken away from the nationals - i think it was obvious that money could lend a helping hand more than gloves, uniforms, or a buffet. if its not money, what is it?

Because you said that some of the LBCs turned down the money because they didn't know what to do with it. I would be interested to know why - wouldn't you?

The 1700 grant from Mesquite is something different from the 10,000. You are confused because you don't have your information straight and are talking about something else. Which is why its probably so interesting to you...

It's not that I don't have my information straight - I don't have any at all.

why is there no communication in your lbc????

You'd be better off addressing that question to the LBC president and BOD.

you are all over the internet!! teach them to use email and then start communicating with them.

Luke, you don't seem to understand that there is a pecking order and protocol in some LBCs and you just don't step on toes. And there are some USAB members who will never, ever have a computer. It's not my job to disseminate info in my LBC. I guess that's why I'm so opinionated elsewhere. That's life.

what I've heard is that many people never could get on the same page - and would blackball/lobby/influence the vote with petty power trip issues - and the good ole boy system was too much in effect.

And it still is, even without a Board of Governors.

we didn't medal, but we did get robbed in some bouts and we could have.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here.

we have jim millman who has already done an excellent job getting us set up to the point that I don't think the lack of USOC funds is going to hurt our operating expenses.

Can you please state in detail exactly WHAT monies, how much, and from who, Millman has put in the organization's coffers this past year? Maybe if I had definitive information I would be less skeptical.

[lukerunion]

Mel,

This back and forth debate is not what interests me or why i returned to the forum. i agree with you on some issues, and disagree on others, but most importantly i disagree with your skeptical attitude. i think most people in amateur boxing look forward to the boxing - not the administration - and you are an exception. i am not sure why if amateur athletes can receive substantial stipends, why volunteers could not receive the same, or become extensions of a paid staff to make their commitment worth their while - and then it would no longer be a completely "thankless" job. when people have more joy in what they do and can justify the costs of their most valuable resource - their time, i think we have a group of happy people who are more willing to join for a common cause. how do other sports group pay officials and remain non profit?

Bigpicture - i reread some of your other posts and your response and I think after sinking it in we are on the same page with a lot of what you said. I am not so blind to what happened or what went on, just not sure what good it does to speak on it. Dan retired. i think that speaks for itself. Jim Millman isn't going to be demoted to focus on fundraising. He is a proven CEO and we wanted someone to run the organization like a business and he has done a good job. I don't think in the heat of the Olympic selection procedure or during the preparation blunders, a switch would have been a good idea. We might have cut off our nose to spite our face in the eyes of the world and the USOC. despite the big problems, we still had a chance. now in terms of 2012, we should have funding to bring back some good programs that will help develop 2012 gold medalists. I really can't think of anything that i disagree with other than, i don't think that the assistant coach's are personal coaches. I think that scenario failed this year. A friend told me once, we fill roles to build a successful team, where individuals will come together and work hard for each other and take the focus off themselves. To do that he believed a coaching staff needed a figure of AUTHORITY. Also a MOTIVATOR. and also a TECHNICIAN, someone familiar with the rules of international so we are on top of things and breaking down styles. I think those roles are explained to the membership, presented with choices and why, and voted upon or decided up on for that reason if that was the selection for 3 coaches. I think that is a better transparent method for selection - a starting point. I most definitely think I understand better now what you mean about upholding the integrity of the organization. I think USA Boxing is unique from other Olympic sport ngbs where we make a bigger impact in our local communities than we do with olympians, and the goals for each priority of the organization can differ but should never conflict - which is what happened this past year, which i heard about how athletes were treated unfairly. the values we want to instill in all young boxers should never falter when we deal with the Olympians. I will agree to disagree with you on some fronts but I think more good than bad is going to come from this Olympics and the new leadership.

[boxmel]

This back and forth debate is not what interests me or why i returned to the forum.

Takes two to debate.

but most importantly i disagree with your skeptical attitude.

But it's my attitude and I'm entitled to it. I've been skeptical, off and on, before you ever discovered amateur boxing. This just happens to be one of my bigger skeptical phases.

i think most people in amateur boxing look forward to the boxing

I must really be dense. What in the world do you mean? Are you saying that most people in amateur boxing just watch amateur boxing as their only involvement? They sign up and pay a yearly fee to do...what? And, no, I am not an exception when it comes to administration. Without admin people in local shows and tournaments there wouldn't be any amateur boxing to be watched by the other people in amateur boxing.

i am not sure why if amateur athletes can receive substantial stipends,

Such stipends are put into a trust fund that is administered by USA Boxing. The boxers have to request monies from their trust funds - with, possibly, the exception of the monies the top three/four in each weight class receive from the USOC.

why volunteers could not receive the same, or become extensions of a paid staff to make their commitment worth their while - and then it would no longer be a completely "thankless" job.

Maybe you need to look up the definition of "volunteer." It is only a thankless job when an irate coach threatens you or an upset parent screams at you. My getting paid wouldn't make me happy when those situations happen.

when people have more joy in what they do and can justify the costs of their most valuable resource - their time, i think we have a group of happy people who are more willing to join for a common cause.

Then you no longer have volunteers. I volunteer because I like what I'm doing. Being paid wouldn't make one bit of difference except enough people would probably get fired due to ego battles and you wouldn't have anyone doing anything.

Code: Select all

how do other sports group pay officials and remain non profit? 

I have no idea. I'll see what I can find out.

Now I'm carpal tunneled out and will let you and Big carry on.

[lukerunion]

i don't want to debate, i want to discuss solutions as i've stated. i think there is a difference. you want to always be right. i want to figure out what is right for USAB. i want to bring real recommendations for the future to a real meeting, not recommendations of what was said before the olympics or what could have should have been done. things change on a daily basis. and there are constantly opportunities to present new ideas. you are missing the intention of what i am saying and potential consequences of such change. i am saying officials don't have to be volunteers, necessarily. and i am saying that volunteers such as yourself enjoy doing the volunteering at actual boxing events. the behind the scenes work that takes up nights, weekends, when one could be spending time at a gym or family could be somebody's 9 to 5! maybe that is why its so hard to get officials for some shows! they are overworked and NOT paid! the "way its always been" is not necessarily the way it should always be!

[Kolya]

Hey Luke-

Fellow College Parker here (35th Ave!). I was just wondering if the idea of a foreign coach, a European or a Cuban or Russian, had been broached at all. For what we want to do (winning medals) I think it would be a good idea to introduce some of that discipline and also the idea of how you can work with the computer scoring to our guys at training camps. Particularly a Russian coach; as if you watch the Russian national team, a lot of them don't box in a typical computer-based amateur style and yet they qualified a full team for the Olympics and did win 2 Golds I think it was (and could have won more if they hadn't had some iffy decisions against them).

[lukerunion]

koyla, do you go to umd? what gym do you train at?

i think we have talented people in the usa and would have problems having an "outsider" fill the position in terms of communication. i do believe we need more international experience/exposure. i know that when the aiba academy is built in canada, our team is going to benefit and get a lot of exposure there due to our proximity. i wouldn't rule what your saying out, but i havent heard it discussed and don't think its the best option , imo

[DCAmateurBoxing]

koyla, do you go to umd? what gym do you train at?

i think we have talented people in the usa and would have problems having an "outsider" fill the position in terms of communication. i do believe we need more international experience/exposure. i know that when the aiba academy is built in canada, our team is going to benefit and get a lot of exposure there due to our proximity. i wouldn't rule what your saying out, but i havent heard it discussed and don't think its the best option , imo

But isn't it true that other boxers that had success in Beijing trained with coaches from outside their country? I heard a lot of instances during the broadcast where boxers visited Cuba (Russians, Bahamian) spent time with Cuban officials.

[boxmel]

I would also be interested in knowing what kind of "exposure" the AIBA academy will offer our boxers. Maybe we should send them there for residency and to train under Canadian coaches. 8)

[Kolya]

koyla, do you go to umd? what gym do you train at?

i think we have talented people in the usa and would have problems having an "outsider" fill the position in terms of communication. i do believe we need more international experience/exposure. i know that when the aiba academy is built in canada, our team is going to benefit and get a lot of exposure there due to our proximity. i wouldn't rule what your saying out, but i havent heard it discussed and don't think its the best option , imo

No, I grew up in College Park. I live in Montana now; but I used to train at the Laurel Boys and Girls Club and then CM Mooney's. I think the problem, like I said, is that our talented people in the US seem to teach a professional style to the kids from the time they're 8 or so. But I know we have good coaches; unfortunately I also think a lot of it is based on who you know rather than what you know.

[bigpicture]

"Jim Millman isn't going to be demoted to focus on fundraising. He is a proven CEO and we wanted someone to run the organization like a business and he has done a good job. I don't think in the heat of the Olympic selection procedure or during the preparation blunders, a switch would have been a good idea. We might have cut off our nose to spite our face in the eyes of the world and the USOC. despite the big problems, we still had a chance. "

As to Mr Millman, I disagree. To run the business, you HAVE to pay attention to basics. And he did NOT. Whatever status he had coming into USAB was effectively useless in the face of the reality he faced. He had choices. Firing DC would only have been one of them. There were all kinds of disciplinary actions that he could have taken internally and quietly to mitigated the damage. Or, DC could have 'retired' a year ago, 6 months ago or 3 months ago and we would have had a better chance. As to avoiding embarrassment, I'd rather be embarrassed in the short run and win in the short run than present what we did in China. This embarrassment will last for years, not months. Mr Millman must have known that he faced that choice, had those options available to him and chose to do nothing. That is a management failure of significant magnitude, in very specific business terms.

He failed to REQUIRE that the staff acted in accordance with prescribed procedures. That is a management failure.

He failed to maintain good HR procedures, (i.e. that boxers have rights too and they are assured they will have a hearing before they are disciplined; and that those charged with that responsibility live up to it or get replaced, etc.)

He failed to insure the integrity of the competitions.

I am sure that he did some good things in other areas. I make no dispute that he is a nice guy. But, in the past year, he has failed to lead this organization in the competent business like manner that you refer to. Having sat on the Boards of several companies and two not for profit organizations, one of which was international, I can say with some experience that In ANY other business, he would be replaced buy the Board or his role would be modified. That is their job in any business or organization: to insure the quality of management and the enforcement of the goals and procedures of they themselves put into place as governance for the organization.

As to the personal coaches being the assistants on the Olympic Team, I did not suggest that they ARE, but rather, that the assistants SHOULD be chosen from the most successful personal coaches. I suspect that each would like to opportunity if offered to them and that it would go a long way to reducing the friction between the personal coaches and USAB.

Big

[Dennis]

NOT ONLY fouls are in the passbook now - it also includes contestant guidelines, info on scoring and nonscoring blows, cautions, 8 counts, attire, etc. YOU SHOULD TAKE A LOOK AT IT BEFORE YOU CRITICIZE IT. Even if nobody ever reads it, I think its a good idea because the information is there - directly from the rulebook.

The problem is the info is taken from the 2006 rulebook, which contained numerous errors. It hasn't been updated to keelp up with changes in rules. A new rulebook is supposed to be coming out soon.

[Dennis]

Most coaches teach boxing - not fouls. The fouls themselves typically result in clinches or wrestling that could be considered a sloppy bout or when one athlete is more tired than another.

Luke, are you aware that most fouls are learned in the gym? Slapping is #1, holding and low head are the next two. If the coaches don't correct these fouls during sparring, the boxers will slap, hold and duck their heads in competition - and wonder why they get cautioned/warned. I have seen plenty of gyms in my area with posters of the fouls on the wall. We give mini clinics to gyms where the basic rules are spelled out, fouls are demonstrated, and scoring blows are explained. Doesn't do a bit of good if the COACHES don't follow through and teach their athletes correctly. I think it's a great idea what you did with the new passbooks. Do I think it will make a difference? Nope. I agree with kidscoach on this one. 8)

I wish more officials would get involved with trying to help out coaches. It should be a partnership so to speak.

[Dennis]

I agree that if we had more money available, things MIGHT improve.

[Dennis]

If funding was available, sanction fees could be reduced. Local boxing shows are vital. Profitable (don't go off on a tangent about being a non-profit organization) shows are better. If a club can put on a show and put some cash into their coffers, then they have money available to pay for food, gas and hotel rooms to travel to shows and tournaments.

[Dennis]

I am a volunteer coach. I do not get paid. I PAY to travel to shows. I PAY to be registered each year. I PAY to give clinics. I PAY to help kids. Now if there was money available to help with more expenses would that make me happier? You bet.

[Dennis]

It is easier to justify traveling to shows/tournaments several times a month if it doesn't cost the coach a lot of money to do it. If there is money available to pay for travel expenses, then more coaches will travel more often. I think that probably means more shows in more cities, more competitions for the boxers, better boxers and more fan support. Now the question is how do we get the money to pay for it? I don't have that answer.

[Dennis]

I think the same thing applies to officials. If judges, referees, timekeepers, clerks, doctors, etc. all are paying expenses out of their own pocket to go to shows/tournaments, they are less likely to go to as many each year. If they were given a small stipend for attending plus gas/expense money, I believe they would be able to justify their commitment/involvement more. Sometimes they have to SELL it to a significant other who is not involved in the sport. It wouldn't be as tough of a sell, if the cost to do it was zero or they actually made a little money by doing it.

[boxmel]

I wish more officials would get involved with trying to help out coaches. It should be a partnership so to speak.

Yes, it should. Part of that also has to be the willingness of coaches to work with the officials. It's very difficult to impart information to a coach who has been robbed and personally believes that the officials are out to get his kid. On the other hand, my husband and I have given several mini clinics to clubs in our LBC where the coaches have invited us to come. Most, frankly, will say they want a mini clinic, and then never follow through. We get tired of offering.

I think the same thing applies to officials. If judges, referees, timekeepers, clerks, doctors, etc. all are paying expenses out of their own pocket to go to shows/tournaments, they are less likely to go to as many each year.

You might have to take a poll on this one. We write off around $12,000+ a year on boxing expenses - definitely helps with our taxes. Not getting paid does not keep us from going to shows - the number of shows in our LBC is overwhelming and after years of doing two shows every weekend, we cut down on our involvement. After years of paying our way to tournaments, and taking off the time to do so, we no longer do that. It has more to do with time, or lack of, than with money. As you know, Dennis, it can cost in the thousands for one person to go to a tournament - air fare, lodging, food. It would be an expensive outlay for any LBC or entity providing funding for eligible officials to attend these events.

If they were given a small stipend for attending plus gas/expense money, I believe they would be able to justify their commitment/involvement more.

Most clubs can't afford to give gas money and we don't expect them to. Some do and it is very helpful but they are few and far between. What do you think a reasonable amount should be for stipend and gas money per show? You'll need to take into account distances travelled, for sure.

If funding was available, sanction fees could be reduced.

If USAB receives enough funding to be able to pay the yearly insurance premiums, sanction fees will be reduced. And, on the other hand, did you know that the cost to belong to USAB and host a show is much less than most of the other amateur sports? The membership fees are lower; clothing costs are lower; sanction fees are lower. Our kids, and their parents, are lucky they don't have to pay an arm and a leg for this sport. 8)

Local boxing shows are vital. Profitable (don't go off on a tangent about being a non-profit organization) shows are better.

All shows, as far as I know, try to make money for their clubs by charging an admission fee. They also charge for food. I think the biggest problem is lack of paying spectators other than friends, family, coaches and other boxers.