Ali-Liston 2 again (I know, snore right?)

[mrbassie]

Saw this again the other day on a prog called the fifteen greatest rounds ever (or somesuch). They showed a much better preserved copy than I've seen before, it showed the punch from a different angle and it caused me to re-examine my opinion of it being a fix.
The side on view that everone's seen doesn't show how much the punch twanged Liston's head but it did and I now believe it was a legit knockdown. Also, it showed a canvas high view of Liston on the floor in which you can clearly see that he's able to get up and just as he gets to one knee Ali's legs skip into view, he sees this out of the corner of his eye and rolls onto his back, presumably thinking Ali is about to hit him while he's down. Liston's explanation was always simply that he couldn't get up because Clay was standing over him and I now find it much more believable. I no longer think it was a fix, rather a shambolically reffed bout. Walcott should have stopped the count until Ali was under control and then resumed.

Thank you all for your time, I would also like to thank my Mama and Elvis.

[Eric the Viking]

The thing I've heard from enough people who were supposedly at ringside to make me remain open-minded on the issue of whether it was a fix is that Liston supposedly didn't see the punch coming, and was thus caught completely unawares. That, together with the known fact that Clay/Ali could be surprisingly heavy-handed at times (it all depended on whether he set himself or not), allows in my mind at least for the possibility that it could have been a legit KO, albeit an unusual one.

If you're caught caught completely off-guard by a punch, it can do much more damage than if you have even a fraction of a second's warning.

[Marciano Frazier]

Saw this again the other day on a prog called the fifteen greatest rounds ever (or somesuch). They showed a much better preserved copy than I've seen before, it showed the punch from a different angle and it caused me to re-examine my opinion of it being a fix.
The side on view that everone's seen doesn't show how much the punch twanged Liston's head but it did and I now believe it was a legit knockdown. Also, it showed a canvas high view of Liston on the floor in which you can clearly see that he's able to get up and just as he gets to one knee Ali's legs skip into view, he sees this out of the corner of his eye and rolls onto his back, presumably thinking Ali is about to hit him while he's down. Liston's explanation was always simply that he couldn't get up because Clay was standing over him and I now find it much more believable. I no longer think it was a fix, rather a shambolically reffed bout. Walcott should have stopped the count until Ali was under control and then resumed.

Thank you all for your time, I would also like to thank my Mama and Elvis.

I agree. It was just a screw-up in refereeing by Walcott. Considering that Liston actually DID beat the count and continued fighting until the out-of-whack Walcott stopped the fight because Liston had been down longer than 10 seconds, I find it hard to swallow that Liston took a dive. I think it was a legit knockdown, because Liston was simply caught off guard by surprise and put down, but he got up and was ready to continue when Walcott made an odd call in stopping the fight.

[MightyWarrior]

Yeah I saw a breakdown of it a few years back, I really don't think it was a fix.
You can see Liston's leg come up as the punch lands, like an involuntary twitch, just before he goes down.
I just think the shock of a decent punch landing that he didn't see ( and most boxers say they're the ones that put you in trouble ) caused a pretty old Sonny to short circuit for a few moments.

I think he probably could have got up quicker, but the ref obviously had a terrible night too.

[TheRiverCityHippy]

i dont think listons heart was in the job, he got caught, went down, seemed to recover and then he had some sort of relapse and rolled over!
okay, he then got up and was fighting when it was stopped but something just doesn`t add up.
i`m not crying fix but i dont think liston was up for it either, in fact rumour has it he was terrible in training leading up to the second fight.
poor old jersey joe was as shocked as everyone else when liston stayed down for so long from such a punch, not the fact he went down, but he stayed down.

[mrbassie]

I don't think his heart is in question, like I said, Ali came skipping over and Liston saw it, rules are rules; the other guy is supposed to go to the neutral corner and if he's standing right over you what are you supposed to do but assume he's gonna whack you? Liston stayed down until Ali was out of the way. That's how I see it at least.

[THE DANCING MASTER]

If you remember the orginal Ali-Liston rematch was to be held in Boston in November of 1964, and by all accounts Liston trained like never before and was in tip-top shape for that fight. He was even the odds on favorite at 4-3. There are still folks who think that Liston may well have won that fight had it taken place as scheduled, but Ali had a hernia and the fight was postponed until May of 1965 and moved to Lewiston. By that time Liston lost his edge and just couldn't get back into that kind of shape at his age - whatever that may have been. Like so many other things with Liston, his age remains a mystery.

Was it a fix? We will never know. I have always leaned towards the fact that it was a tanker based on the fact the Liston took Cleveland Williams' best shots and didn't go down, but Ali flicks an overhand right and he drops. If it wasn't an outright fix, perhaps Liston just gave up. I believe his only comment on the fight was "I forgot to get up."

[Marciano Frazier]

If you remember the orginal Ali-Liston rematch was to be held in Boston in November of 1964, and by all accounts Liston trained like never before and was in tip-top shape for that fight. He was even the odds on favorite at 4-3. There are still folks who think that Liston may well have won that fight had it taken place as scheduled, but Ali had a hernia and the fight was postponed until May of 1965 and moved to Lewiston. By that time Liston lost his edge and just couldn't get back into that kind of shape at his age - whatever that may have been. Like so many other things with Liston, his age remains a mystery.

Was it a fix? We will never know. I have always leaned towards the fact that it was a tanker based on the fact the Liston took Cleveland Williams' best shots and didn't go down, but Ali flicks an overhand right and he drops. If it wasn't an outright fix, perhaps Liston just gave up. I believe his only comment on the fight was "I forgot to get up."

But Liston DID get up, and he kept fighting as well until the ref stopped it, so how could it have been a fix? How could Liston have been taking a dive and giving up if he got up and kept fighting, and didn't voluntarily let the fight come to an end?

[THE DANCING MASTER]

Yes, Liston DID get up, but not in time to beat the count!! And the fact that he did get up and continue to fight when Ali came back after him shows, IMHO, that he really wasn't all that hurt or stunned in the first place. Like I stated, though, we will never really know. The only one who really did was Liston, and he took that to the grave with him. Another thought I always had about that fight was what right did Nat Fletcher have to interfere? Sure, he was the publisher of The Ring and perhaps regarded as the dean of boxing and all of that, but did that give him any authority to jump up and yell for Walcott to stop the fight? His job was to report the action, not get involved in it.

[silkov]

I'd like to thank my mum, my dad, my little sister, my cats and fish and especially a special lady named melinda!.. 8) 8) 8) ...thankyou!.. ..