Liston vs Frazier

[PPLLUVTHIS]

This topic probably have been posted before, but I'm interested to hear how you all feel would win a fight between Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier back in the late 60's?

[dr_devious]

In the late 60s Liston was past his best and Frazier would win by KO, 6-8 rounds. The peak Liston would be a different story, and the result would be reversed

[raylawpc]

I disagree. If Frazier had fought Liston instead, say, of Buster Mathis in March 1968, I think Liston would have stood an excellent chance to pull off the upset.

In 1968, Liston ended up pealing off seven straight wins against some pretty good guys - all by KO or stoppage - and he looked good doing it. 1968 was Liston's best post-prime/post-championship year and, although past his prime, he still had a lot of fuel left in the tank. Also, as I recall, Liston defended well against the left hook - Frazier's payday punch. He also threw short punches and could have gotten inside Frazier's looping punches. Liston also had one of the longest reaches of any heavyweight champion.

On the otherhand, Frazier had not yet come into his own. He looked unimpressive in the early rounds against Mathis and, later in 1968, he won but did not look overly impressive against Bonavena.

I personally think a "not quite in his prime" Frazier against Liston could have gone similarly to Frazier's "slightly past his prime" loss to Foreman - that is, an early stoppage. Joe was certainly a slow starter, and a less than experienced Frazier would have had to survive an early whipping at the hands of a quick starting Liston; I don't know if the young Frazier could have done that. If, however, Frazier made it past the early rounds, I can see the fight becoming a grueling affair with Frazier maybe stopping Liston late or winning a decision.

[Robinson]

Lets say the two met in 1968. I see Frazier winning by TKO.
Liston was injury prone and in-consistent in his later years.
Many can argue that he was 'avoided' by the upper tier guys,
but at the same time he did struggle with the opponents he
did face around this time.

Frazier was coming into his own around this time, was a hard
hitting machine, Liston was slower, had less mobility and most
likely lacked the stamina to keep up the pace that Frazier would
throw at him.

I see Liston retiring after 8-9 rounds in 1968.

[raylawpc]

Lets say the two met in 1968. I see Frazier winning by TKO.
Liston was injury prone and in-consistent in his later years.
Many can argue that he was 'avoided' by the upper tier guys,
but at the same time he did struggle with the opponents he
did face around this time.

Frazier was coming into his own around this time, was a hard
hitting machine, Liston was slower, had less mobility and most
likely lacked the stamina to keep up the pace that Frazier would
throw at him.

I see Liston retiring after 8-9 rounds in 1968.

At what point was Liston injury prone and inconsistent in 1968? He went seven of seven in 1968 with 7 kayoes.

[ringsider]

Frazier was made to order for Liston. The out come would resemble the Frazier/ Foreman fight.

Frazier gets brutally KO'd.

Down goes Frazier, down goes Frazier, down goes Frazier!!!..... ;;-)

[dr_devious]

Liston was going well in the late 60s until Leotis Martin. The guys he was beating, such as Amos Lincoln and Scrap Iron Johnson were hardly in Fraziers league. I fancy Frazier to beat Liston in that era. Peak for peak, different story.

[Ambling Alp]

It's a little difficult guessing how much Liston had left by 1968. He hadn't been fighting high level in his last several fights. However, we do know how he fought against Leotis Martin in 1969; decent until he was ko'd. He probably wouldn't have been much better in 1968. Remember Liston turned 35 in 1968 and hadn't been fighting world class competition (with the possible exception of Henry Clark) for a few years.
Frazier was very close to his best by then. Certainly much closer to his prime than Liston was to his. Might be competitive for awhile, but Frazier is going to stop him eventually.

[ringsider]

Frazier didn't have the chin......to take Liston's shots.

[raylawpc]

It's a little difficult guessing how much Liston had left by 1968. He hadn't been fighting high level in his last several fights. However, we do know how he fought against Leotis Martin in 1969; decent until he was ko'd. He probably wouldn't have been much better in 1968. Remember Liston turned 35 in 1968 and hadn't been fighting world class competition (with the possible exception of Henry Clark) for a few years.
Frazier was very close to his best by then. Certainly much closer to his prime than Liston was to his. Might be competitive for awhile, but Frazier is going to stop him eventually.

How is it difficult to know what Liston had left in 1968? He had seven fights against seven pretty good fighters.

[Robinson]

Lets say the two met in 1968. I see Frazier winning by TKO.
Liston was injury prone and in-consistent in his later years.
Many can argue that he was 'avoided' by the upper tier guys,
but at the same time he did struggle with the opponents he
did face around this time.

Frazier was coming into his own around this time, was a hard
hitting machine, Liston was slower, had less mobility and most
likely lacked the stamina to keep up the pace that Frazier would
throw at him.

I see Liston retiring after 8-9 rounds in 1968.

At what point was Liston injury prone and inconsistent in 1968? He went seven of seven in 1968 with 7 kayoes.

I think Liston, while still active at this time, seemed to be
plagued with injuries post him losing the title. Its not as though
he faced a upper tier guy around this time.

[Robinson]

Here are the facts. Frazier in 1968-69 was at his best.
He was a more versatile fighter than what he would go on
to become post Ali 1.

Liston did not look good against Ali in 1964. He did not
fight any one of exceptional note thereafter. The rematch
was just...whatever...and the guys Liston consumed
up until his death were solid and sound fighters, but
far from being tests to prove he could beat Frazier
at this time.

[Carbo]

I disagree. If Frazier had fought Liston instead, say, of Buster Mathis in March 1968, I think Liston would have stood an excellent chance to pull off the upset.

In 1968, Liston ended up pealing off seven straight wins against some pretty good guys - all by KO or stoppage - and he looked good doing it. 1968 was Liston's best post-prime/post-championship year and, although past his prime, he still had a lot of fuel left in the tank. Also, as I recall, Liston defended well against the left hook - Frazier's payday punch. He also threw short punches and could have gotten inside Frazier's looping punches. Liston also had one of the longest reaches of any heavyweight champion.

On the otherhand, Frazier had not yet come into his own. He looked unimpressive in the early rounds against Mathis and, later in 1968, he won but did not look overly impressive against Bonavena.

I personally think a "not quite in his prime" Frazier against Liston could have gone similarly to Frazier's "slightly past his prime" loss to Foreman - that is, an early stoppage. Joe was certainly a slow starter, and a less than experienced Frazier would have had to survive an early whipping at the hands of a quick starting Liston; I don't know if the young Frazier could have done that. If, however, Frazier made it past the early rounds, I can see the fight becoming a grueling affair with Frazier maybe stopping Liston late or winning a decision.

An outstanding, and in my view correct, analysis.

It has always struck me as bizarre and unfair that Liston was thought of as the baddest, scariest man on the planet, and during and even before his title reign was as widely feared as a young Tyson, yet is almost forgotten of written off today. Perhaps the ease with which Ali dealt with him that is at the root of this phenomenon, but, I suppose, we will never know.

Liston had a hard head and was anvil-handed. His jab was an outstanding weapon, and he might have even been as devastating a puncher as young Foreman.

Frazier will always struggle against taller men with brute force. All the bobbing and weaving in the world is not going to stop Frazier taking blows on the way in, and against taller men able to deliver wreckingball blows, it is a sign of trouble. This issue is amplified by Smokin' Joe's notoriously cold starts -- he seemed to need time to build to his percussive best -- because he can only fight going forward and must take the bombs while still vulnerable.

Of course, Liston was past his best toward the back end of the sixties, which is why I would give Frazier a chance to win a punishing encounter late as the old man ran out of gas, but Liston still had the power to end it early.

Of course, a prime Sonny would be a different matter.

[Ambling Alp]

It's a little difficult guessing how much Liston had left by 1968. He hadn't been fighting high level in his last several fights. However, we do know how he fought against Leotis Martin in 1969; decent until he was ko'd. He probably wouldn't have been much better in 1968. Remember Liston turned 35 in 1968 and hadn't been fighting world class competition (with the possible exception of Henry Clark) for a few years.
Frazier was very close to his best by then. Certainly much closer to his prime than Liston was to his. Might be competitive for awhile, but Frazier is going to stop him eventually.

How is it difficult to know what Liston had left in 1968? He had seven fights against seven pretty good fighters.

Pretty good fighters? Huh?
Amos Lincoln, Roger Rischer,Bill McMurray were journeyman.
Willis Earls,Sonny Moore,Billy Joiner were tomato cans.
Henry Clark was the best of the group and he was never more than a fringe contender.

The fighters that Liston fought in 1966-1967 were Elmer Rush,Dave Bailey,Amos Johnson,and Gerhard Zech. None of them were contenders either.

There is a gigantic gulf between these guys and Joe Frazier.

[Seamus]

I think Frazier's a bit overrated, but he's still head and shoulders over anyone Liston ever beat. In any scenario, I always see Frazier having too much resolve and punch output for Liston. Smokin Joe outlasts him every time.

[PPLLUVTHIS]

I guess I should have stated "prime for prime" with this thread. I feel that Liston style would give Frazier trouble if they both fought at their peak.

[raylawpc]

It's a little difficult guessing how much Liston had left by 1968. He hadn't been fighting high level in his last several fights. However, we do know how he fought against Leotis Martin in 1969; decent until he was ko'd. He probably wouldn't have been much better in 1968. Remember Liston turned 35 in 1968 and hadn't been fighting world class competition (with the possible exception of Henry Clark) for a few years.
Frazier was very close to his best by then. Certainly much closer to his prime than Liston was to his. Might be competitive for awhile, but Frazier is going to stop him eventually.

How is it difficult to know what Liston had left in 1968? He had seven fights against seven pretty good fighters.

Pretty good fighters? Huh?
Amos Lincoln, Roger Rischer,Bill McMurray were journeyman.
Willis Earls,Sonny Moore,Billy Joiner were tomato cans.
Henry Clark was the best of the group and he was never more than a fringe contender.

The fighters that Liston fought in 1966-1967 were Elmer Rush,Dave Bailey,Amos Johnson,and Gerhard Zech. None of them were contenders either.

There is a gigantic gulf between these guys and Joe Frazier.

Yes, pretty good fighters. Did you ever see Sonny Moore live? I did. Sonny Moore was double tough and capable of giving anybody all that they wanted. Sonny Moore was no "tomato can." I can testify to that from personal observation.

Amos "Big Train" Lincoln was another tough fellow. In his fight immediately preceding the bout with Liston, he took Buster Mathis to a split decision. Lincoln defeated Joey Orbillo and Thad Spencer in his career.

Roger Rischer? A tough veteran who defeated Henry Cooper in London . In the fight immediately preceding his bout with Liston, he defeated Eduardo Corletti, who was highly regarding in the 1960s and had, himself, defeated George Chuvalo.

I'm glad you didn't call Henry Clark a tomato can. All Clark did in the seven fights preceding his bout with Liston was beat both Eddie Machen and Leotis Martin. Liston was one of only three guys to stop Clark - the other two being Ken Norton and Ernie Shavers. Pretty good company to be in, I'd say.

Admittedly, none of these guys were world beaters. But they were solid fighters. The way Liston took each of them apart demonstrates that he was still a formidable fighter in 1968. I was alive in 1968. I was reading Ring Magazine and BI from 1968. As I recall, the accounts in Ring and BI lauded Liston's skills in handily defeating these guys - they did not denegrate the caliber of his opponents. I don't recall the word "tomato can" being used to describe any of them.

Sonny didn't fight any contenders in 1968 because none wanted to fight him.

An additional note: You also referred to Willis Earls as a "tomato can." The fact of the matter is that Earls, at the time he fought Liston, was campaigning as a small heavyweight. After losing to Ziggy in 1969, my recollection is that Earls changed managers (I can't remember who), and that managber convicned him he should campaign as a light-heavyweight. As a light-heavyweight Willis peeled off nine or 10 wins, and beat a couple of pretty good light heavyweights - Ray "Windmill" White and Paul Patin - a double-tough Texas southpaw - and drew with Eddie Bossman Jones, another tough character from the 1960 and 70s. The streak ended with a knockout to Jimmy Dupree. I don't think it is correct to characterize Willis Earls as a tomato can.

[Syntax Error]

Oscar Bonavena dumped Frazier on his backside twice around about this time.

What price Sonny Liston doing the same, but this time, the ref having to stop the fight because Joe is too hurt to continue?

[raylawpc]

Here are the facts. Frazier in 1968-69 was at his best.
He was a more versatile fighter than what he would go on
to become post Ali 1.

Liston did not look good against Ali in 1964. He did not
fight any one of exceptional note thereafter. The rematch
was just...whatever...and the guys Liston consumed
up until his death were solid and sound fighters, but
far from being tests to prove he could beat Frazier
at this time.

Kym, in my judgment Frazier came into his own mid-1969 in the Quarry fight and his prime continued through the first Ali fight. I think those were his prime years. In those years, I think Frazier was capable of beating any heavyweight who ever lived. I think in 1968 Frazier was still growing and maturing as a fighter. He struggled early against Mathis, and did not look sharp against Bonavena.

I'm still waiting to learn what injuries plagued Liston in 1968.

[Ambling Alp]

How is it difficult to know what Liston had left in 1968? He had seven fights against seven pretty good fighters.[/quote]

Pretty good fighters? Huh?
Amos Lincoln, Roger Rischer,Bill McMurray were journeyman.
Willis Earls,Sonny Moore,Billy Joiner were tomato cans.
Henry Clark was the best of the group and he was never more than a fringe contender.

The fighters that Liston fought in 1966-1967 were Elmer Rush,Dave Bailey,Amos Johnson,and Gerhard Zech. None of them were contenders either.

There is a gigantic gulf between these guys and Joe Frazier.[/quote]

Yes, pretty good fighters. Did you ever see Sonny Moore live? I did. Sonny Moore was double tough and capable of giving anybody all that they wanted. Sonny Moore was no "tomato can." I can testify to that from personal observation.

Amos "Big Train" Lincoln was another tough fellow. In his fight immediately preceding the bout with Liston, he took Buster Mathis to a split decision. Lincoln defeated Joey Orbillo and Thad Spencer in his career.

Roger Rischer? A tough veteran who defeated Henry Cooper in London . In the fight immediately preceding his bout with Liston, he defeated Eduardo Corletti, who was highly regarding in the 1960s and had, himself, defeated George Chuvalo.

I'm glad you didn't call Henry Clark a tomato can. All Clark did in the seven fights preceding his bout with Liston was beat both Eddie Machen and Leotis Martin. Liston was one of only three guys to stop Clark - the other two being Ken Norton and Ernie Shavers. Pretty good company to be in, I'd say.

Admittedly, none of these guys were world beaters. But they were solid fighters. The way Liston took each of them apart demonstrates that he was still a formidable fighter in 1968. I was alive in 1968. I was reading Ring Magazine and BI from 1968. As I recall, the accounts in Ring and BI lauded Liston's skills in handily defeating these guys - they did not denegrate the caliber of his opponents. I don't recall the word "tomato can" being used to describe any of them.

Sonny didn't fight any contenders in 1968 because none wanted to fight him.

An additional note: You also referred to Willis Earls as a "tomato can." The fact of the matter is that Earls, at the time he fought Liston, was campaigning as a small heavyweight. After losing to Ziggy in 1969, my recollection is that Earls changed managers (I can't remember who), and that managber convicned him he should campaign as a light-heavyweight. As a light-heavyweight Willis peeled off nine or 10 wins, and beat a couple of pretty good light heavyweights - Ray "Windmill" White and Paul Patin - a double-tough Texas southpaw - and drew with Eddie Bossman Jones, another tough character from the 1960 and 70s. The streak ended with a knockout to Jimmy Dupree. I don't think it is correct to characterize Willis Earls as a tomato can.[/quote]

Well, I suppose if you want to cherry pick, you can make almost anyone look decent.
However, you are leaving out a lot of important information:

Amos Lincoln-did get a split decision with Mathis. You left out that one judge gave Mathis every round and another only gave Lincoln one. Lincoln was 1-4 in last 5 fights before fighting Liston. This includes a 2nd round Ko loss to the legendary Jimmy Fletcher.

Roger Rischer-Beat the inconsisent Henry Cooper. Did little else. Was 2-3 in his last 5 fights beofre fighting Liston. This includes a first round Ko loss to Brian London.

Yes Willie Earls was a tomato can. He was 4-7-1 before fighting Liston. He had been knocked out 5 of out last 6 fights. Thats a tomato can.

How about the other solid fighters that Liston fought during this period?
Sonny Moore -Yes I am actually calling him a tomato can. He was 1-9 in the last 10 fights before fighting Liston. His one win? Willie Earls!

Billy Joiner-9-3-3 before taking on Liston. Winless in his previous 5 fights before fighting Liston.
Bill McMurray- 23-18-2 before taking on Liston. 1-3-1 in his last 5 fights.

When Henry Clark is the best fighter you have beaten in your last 11 fights, you haven't exactly been fighting brutal competition. Foreget the name Sonny Liston. Just look at the opponents that Liston fought between Ali and Leotis Martin. If it was some young prospect who had only fought those same opponents; it would be obvious that the "prospect" hadn't been tested yet.

Interesting theory that the Top contenders were avoiding the aging Liston. Seems like it would have been a nice notch on their belt (and a good payday) to beat a fading ex champ.

The Liston that fought Martin in 1969 was obviously slower, had a decreased work rate than the Liston that was fighting Machen, Folley,Williams, Patterson, Ali etc. He was 36 by the time he fought Martin. The 1968 version of Liston is probably much closer to the 1969 version than the prime version.

Frazier fought Bonavena in his 12 pro fight in 1966. He had only been a pro for a year. He of course was in trouble early, but came back to win. He had improved by 1968. Between this fight and Mathis, he had 7 fights in the meantime, inlcuding wins over veterans like Jones and Machen and Chuvalo.
Against Mathis, as usual Frazier started off slow, but he eventually took control of the fight and knocked Mathis out. He looked an awful lot better than Liston did against Martin.

[raylawpc]

How is it difficult to know what Liston had left in 1968? He had seven fights against seven pretty good fighters.

Pretty good fighters? Huh?
Amos Lincoln, Roger Rischer,Bill McMurray were journeyman.
Willis Earls,Sonny Moore,Billy Joiner were tomato cans.
Henry Clark was the best of the group and he was never more than a fringe contender.

The fighters that Liston fought in 1966-1967 were Elmer Rush,Dave Bailey,Amos Johnson,and Gerhard Zech. None of them were contenders either.

There is a gigantic gulf between these guys and Joe Frazier.[/quote]

Yes, pretty good fighters. Did you ever see Sonny Moore live? I did. Sonny Moore was double tough and capable of giving anybody all that they wanted. Sonny Moore was no "tomato can." I can testify to that from personal observation.

Amos "Big Train" Lincoln was another tough fellow. In his fight immediately preceding the bout with Liston, he took Buster Mathis to a split decision. Lincoln defeated Joey Orbillo and Thad Spencer in his career.

Roger Rischer? A tough veteran who defeated Henry Cooper in London . In the fight immediately preceding his bout with Liston, he defeated Eduardo Corletti, who was highly regarding in the 1960s and had, himself, defeated George Chuvalo.

I'm glad you didn't call Henry Clark a tomato can. All Clark did in the seven fights preceding his bout with Liston was beat both Eddie Machen and Leotis Martin. Liston was one of only three guys to stop Clark - the other two being Ken Norton and Ernie Shavers. Pretty good company to be in, I'd say.

Admittedly, none of these guys were world beaters. But they were solid fighters. The way Liston took each of them apart demonstrates that he was still a formidable fighter in 1968. I was alive in 1968. I was reading Ring Magazine and BI from 1968. As I recall, the accounts in Ring and BI lauded Liston's skills in handily defeating these guys - they did not denegrate the caliber of his opponents. I don't recall the word "tomato can" being used to describe any of them.

Sonny didn't fight any contenders in 1968 because none wanted to fight him.

An additional note: You also referred to Willis Earls as a "tomato can." The fact of the matter is that Earls, at the time he fought Liston, was campaigning as a small heavyweight. After losing to Ziggy in 1969, my recollection is that Earls changed managers (I can't remember who), and that managber convicned him he should campaign as a light-heavyweight. As a light-heavyweight Willis peeled off nine or 10 wins, and beat a couple of pretty good light heavyweights - Ray "Windmill" White and Paul Patin - a double-tough Texas southpaw - and drew with Eddie Bossman Jones, another tough character from the 1960 and 70s. The streak ended with a knockout to Jimmy Dupree. I don't think it is correct to characterize Willis Earls as a tomato can.[/quote]

Well, I suppose if you want to cherry pick, you can make almost anyone look decent.
However, you are leaving out a lot of important information:

Amos Lincoln-did get a split decision with Mathis. You left out that one judge gave Mathis every round and another only gave Lincoln one. Lincoln was 1-4 in last 5 fights before fighting Liston. This includes a 2nd round Ko loss to the legendary Jimmy Fletcher.

Roger Rischer-Beat the inconsisent Henry Cooper. Did little else. Was 2-3 in his last 5 fights beofre fighting Liston. This includes a first round Ko loss to Brian London.

Yes Willie Earls was a tomato can. He was 4-7-1 before fighting Liston. He had been knocked out 5 of out last 6 fights. Thats a tomato can.

How about the other solid fighters that Liston fought during this period?
Sonny Moore -Yes I am actually calling him a tomato can. He was 1-9 in the last 10 fights before fighting Liston. His one win? Willie Earls!

Billy Joiner-9-3-3 before taking on Liston. Winless in his previous 5 fights before fighting Liston.
Bill McMurray- 23-18-2 before taking on Liston. 1-3-1 in his last 5 fights.

When Henry Clark is the best fighter you have beaten in your last 11 fights, you haven't exactly been fighting brutal competition. Foreget the name Sonny Liston. Just look at the opponents that Liston fought between Ali and Leotis Martin. If it was some young prospect who had only fought those same opponents; it would be obvious that the "prospect" hadn't been tested yet.

Interesting theory that the Top contenders were avoiding the aging Liston. Seems like it would have been a nice notch on their belt (and a good payday) to beat a fading ex champ.

The Liston that fought Martin in 1969 was obviously slower, had a decreased work rate than the Liston that was fighting Machen, Folley,Williams, Patterson, Ali etc. He was 36 by the time he fought Martin. The 1968 version of Liston is probably much closer to the 1969 version than the prime version.

Frazier fought Bonavena in his 12 pro fight in 1966. He had only been a pro for a year. He of course was in trouble early, but came back to win. He had improved by 1968. Between this fight and Mathis, he had 7 fights in the meantime, inlcuding wins over veterans like Jones and Machen and Chuvalo.
Against Mathis, as usual Frazier started off slow, but he eventually took control of the fight and knocked Mathis out. He looked an awful lot better than Liston did against Martin.[/quote]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree as to the quality of these opponents. I have actually seen a couple of them live and in action. And all of them were known fighters in the late 60s. Not world beaters; not contenders; but fighters who were known by those involved in the game in the late 60s and early 70s, and boxers known as a good quality opponents for anyone. Not a fighter to be taken lightly - particularly at the time Liston met them.

Why didn't up-and-comers want Liston? In 1968, Liston did not have the reputation of being, as you put it, a "fading ex-champ." He was regarding as an experienced and dangerous a**-kicking machine.

You put in a young up-and-comer with Liston and, yes, he might win. But, on the otherhand, something very nasty could happen too. There were easier ways to get a reputation than to fight Sonny Liston.

Added 9/25: I see on the Hall of Fame thread where you wrote, "but we all know how in boxing that win/loss records can be deceiving." Yet, you relied mostly on the win-loss record of Liston's 1968 opponents to rate them. Hmmmm . . .

[Robinson]

Here are the facts. Frazier in 1968-69 was at his best.
He was a more versatile fighter than what he would go on
to become post Ali 1.

Liston did not look good against Ali in 1964. He did not
fight any one of exceptional note thereafter. The rematch
was just...whatever...and the guys Liston consumed
up until his death were solid and sound fighters, but
far from being tests to prove he could beat Frazier
at this time.

Kym, in my judgment Frazier came into his own mid-1969 in the Quarry fight and his prime continued through the first Ali fight. I think those were his prime years. In those years, I think Frazier was capable of beating any heavyweight who ever lived. I think in 1968 Frazier was still growing and maturing as a fighter. He struggled early against Mathis, and did not look sharp against Bonavena.

I'm still waiting to learn what injuries plagued Liston in 1968.

Ray

my comments regarding his injuries was in regards to his shoulder during his
loss to Ali, and as he was getting older he was naturally more ring worn. I can
not cite an actual incident during this period.

Mathis had the style and size to make a fight awkward for most fighters, he had
good speed for a big guy and could absorb some hefty shots. Bonavena gave
Frazier his hardest fight in this period easily as we all know. That will happen,
Frazier could meet a guy like Bonavena and struggle with him, yet steam roll
through guys like Ellis or Quarry.

[raylawpc]

Here are the facts. Frazier in 1968-69 was at his best.
He was a more versatile fighter than what he would go on
to become post Ali 1.

Liston did not look good against Ali in 1964. He did not
fight any one of exceptional note thereafter. The rematch
was just...whatever...and the guys Liston consumed
up until his death were solid and sound fighters, but
far from being tests to prove he could beat Frazier
at this time.

Kym, in my judgment Frazier came into his own mid-1969 in the Quarry fight and his prime continued through the first Ali fight. I think those were his prime years. In those years, I think Frazier was capable of beating any heavyweight who ever lived. I think in 1968 Frazier was still growing and maturing as a fighter. He struggled early against Mathis, and did not look sharp against Bonavena.

I'm still waiting to learn what injuries plagued Liston in 1968.

Ray

my comments regarding his injuries was in regards to his shoulder during his
loss to Ali, and as he was getting older he was naturally more ring worn. I can
not cite an actual incident during this period.

Mathis had the style and size to make a fight awkward for most fighters, he had
good speed for a big guy and could absorb some hefty shots. Bonavena gave
Frazier his hardest fight in this period easily as we all know. That will happen,
Frazier could meet a guy like Bonavena and struggle with him, yet steam roll
through guys like Ellis or Quarry.

Thanks for clarifying, Kym

[Cojimar 1945]

The guys Liston was fighting in the late 1960s were in general not terribly good so I don't see how we can know how effective Liston's power would be against a top-level opponnent. Liston was generally not dispatching his foes in the early rounds.

[Robinson]

Even prime for prime I am not convinced entirely that Liston
beats Frazier. What about Liston makes him the new great
thing ? I rate him highly but I think he gets somewhat over
rated by many here.