PPV

glittermonkey · Post by **glittermonkey** » 28 Apr 2004, 16:18

Okay, it's not exactly a new subject, but since i've been posting here i haven't seen anyones opinion on whether ppv is a good thing for boxing or not.

I've been thinking about it for a while now (god knows i've little else to do at the moment), and the more i think about it the more convinced i become that ppv is in fact keeping boxing a minority sport.
It's the Vitali/Sanders fight that has pushed me over the edge. How many people in this country were able to see this fight? It must be a number in the thousands as oppose to millions. For us it was a fight to decide the number one fighter in what's supposed to be the flagship division, but for everyone else it barely registered. I didn't even see it on the news the day after.
My point is other minority sports such as snooker, darts (it's a pub game, for gods sake not a real sport), swimming, triathlon, rugby league, cycling, second rate motorsports and even the boat race, have enjoyed reasonable coverage on or around prime time weekend slots during the past year. I know we're never going to have live boxing on a sunday afternoon, but saturday nights action would be more than welcome.
It's my opinion that by restricting the big fights to ppv, sky are in fact killing off our game. Obviously the fighters do get financial benefits in the short term, but taking a long term view if boxing was to be moved into the mainstream there would be an increase in the amount of viewers. Increased interest would eventually lead to even bigger financial rewards as well as getting more kids to take up the sport.

There you go, i obviously think scrapping ppv is the way to go (and not just because i'm sick of shelling out for substandard cards, although i am!!). I'd love to hear some opinions from you guys.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Apr 2004, 17:52

The sad fact of the matter is, boxing IS a minority sport nowadays. There's a whole number of reasons (of which Sky-TV is just one). Every town has a kickboxing club nowadays, for example, but not always a boxing club. Boxing is too tough for the ponces who like to think they can use their hands and their feet (when in fact they can't use either). But kickboxing has really drained the sport of youngsters.

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 28 Apr 2004, 19:44

exactly we r a minority sport these days :x allegedly sold the sport down the river when he took it to sky and cos he had all the big names it hit the hardest.

greed thats what it is and its corrupted the sport just like money corrupted rock n roll before the punks saved it.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 29 Apr 2004, 04:05

PPV is marginalising things even more though. I'd be very interested in the Sanders - Klitschko PPV numbers. You say thousands, but I'd be very interested to see how many people did actually buy this. Certainly I'd dare to suggest that demographiclly these would be Ukranian imigrants and maybe a couple of token South Africans, rather than the kind of boxing fan who would, say, buy a Lewis match or even the kind that would buy a Tyson match.

Boxing is getting marginalised for a stack of issues, from multiple titles to mismatches to lack of TV audience to the polarisation of interest groups due to the plethora of information available over the web. There's also the argument that boxing's just dropped away as it left schools and kids start dreaming about being either Wayne Rooney or one of the Super Mario Brothers.

Fundamentally, I resent PPV with a passion, and haven't paid for one since I bought a Naseem card in 2000 (Augie Sanchez - does that make sense). But the fact I have trouble remembering is more down to the fact that I had to stay up boozing for hours past my bed time anyway. But I just resent shelling out for a service then being asked to pay extra for the things I want to watch, so I don't. I might be biting my nose to spite my face, but being a stubborn northerner I'm more than happy to make a stand. It's just wrong.

In addition, no matter how much they plug Sanders - Klitschko on every boxing programme going, and refuse to show any repeats of a British and Commonwealth heavyweight title fight (despite it being littered with plugs for the world title fight), Sanders- Klitschko is never going to sell. I understand they're trying to build Klitschko into a PPV star, but that's not done by sticking him on PPV straight away, it's done by building a large fan base then squeezing their balls. WHich is wrong, again, but it's what they've done in the past - evidence Naseem.

If Hatton had been in against Tszyu, Gatti, Judah or the like on June 5th, I think we'd have seen that Hatton - Calzaghe card as PPV as well.

Anyway, get boxing back on terrestrial telly and can PPVs

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 29 Apr 2004, 07:53

Agree wholeheartedly with gm and coconut. However, many of us, myself included, perpetuate this marginalisation by subscribing to Sky. I hadn't had Sky in years but thought I'd better resubscribe to give myself access.

I have said it before and will say it again...the most important thing for boxing is to get it decent exposure on terrestrial telly at a decent time. How often is tennis on telly, really...? Apart from the slams, it gets two weeks exposure in June. And how many kids pick up a racquet?

The same for darts and, especially, snooker.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Apr 2004, 09:45

Face it, there are tonnes of sports to choose from these days, the globalisation of sport and the pretty much blanket coverage compared to say the 1970's means boxing is NEVER going to be a mainstay on terrestrieal Tv again.

However, what can be done is at least to pick up on the major global stars, and the best British prospects and things like British and European title fights, to give the more casual fan an idea of what's going on in the world of boxing.

However, with so many other sports to cover from a limited budget, they are always going to fighting a losing battle.

J · Post by J » 29 Apr 2004, 09:52

Well all the various sanctioning bodies dont help and the poor press presently being regurgitated rightly (or wrongly) about team hattons choice of opponnents, add to this the debacle of some of the scoring Reid Ottke for example/ That was on terrestrial and I know several casual fans who havent bothered with boxing since.

For it become more popular it needs to have more accessible coverage agreed but also the allegations surrounding such bouts as the first Chi Brodie match up, needs to be addressed.

So better opponents, better quality of officials, less allegations of corruption and bias and we might have a starting point until that happens its just us die hards who are keeping the torch burning. 8)

glittermonkey · Post by **glittermonkey** » 29 Apr 2004, 10:10

Thanks for the intelligent replys guys. I can see why some of you don't post on the current scene forum. It's good to see the the sites average IQ being kept up by the select few. I was starting to get concerned when my "Ruiz for undisputed champion" post was taken seriously by some.

That thousand's looking close J.

J · Post by J » 29 Apr 2004, 10:14

better start thinking bout what to write in three posts time doh two posts time hehehe

Freiheit · Post by **Freiheit** » 29 Apr 2004, 10:17

Regarding tv coverage you should learn something from the germans when even a fight like Urkal vs Harris can get a 44% share of the viewers they must be doing something right.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Apr 2004, 10:21

Either German TV is very very shite, or perhaps it's the fact that they know their champion is guaranteed to win.

I mean, I find it amazing that anyone would tune in to watch Ottke, he's boring as hell, or was rather.

To put it into perspective, Pernell Whittaker was 10 times the fighter Ottke ever was, and he NEVER had a following of any size in the US.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 29 Apr 2004, 10:26

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Face it, there are tonnes of sports to choose from these days, the globalisation of sport and the pretty much blanket coverage compared to say the 1970's means boxing is NEVER going to be a mainstay on terrestrieal Tv again.

However, what can be done is at least to pick up on the major global stars, and the best British prospects and things like British and European title fights, to give the more casual fan an idea of what's going on in the world of boxing.

However, with so many other sports to cover from a limited budget, they are always going to fighting a losing battle.

James, I understand that it's a more advanced battleground than in previous eras, but one of the main reasons boxing got popular was that it was such a simple sport, everyone understood it, everyone could do it. Look at how in this country rugby's gone haywire not just with the world cup but since it went pro - it's been marketed to buggery and people who previously would have ignored the game and even those who still don't understand it are shelling out a hundred notes to go to Twickers.

Rugby did it when it went pro, soccer did it over here with the Premiership, it just seems that for a sport run by the marketers (promoters and TV) that we're being royally out-marketed.

Basically, in boxing there are all the essential tools for a universally popular sport. I don't or won't believe that the nation / world's got that prissy in the last couple of decades. However, by having umpteen different champions at a zillion different weights, and by taking the sport away from the viewing public, we as boxing fans are being hugely marginalised.

With regard to the PPV thing. Again I'm going to go back to last weekend's card. Seems to me that boxing's in a bit of a state right now and the last thing it needs is PPV. The only other sports that command PPV audiences in this country are soccer and WWE ('sports' being used as a loose term). But both have gone through a major marketing blitz and a long time waiting before Premiership watchers had to pay for individual games or wrestling fans had to pay for whichever comical show Sky is roaring at me to buy this week (who is that bloke who does the voice-overs? - I'd love to see him one day just stopping by his local for a pint and a chat).

Basically, in these situations PPV was used as a way of scalping a large fan base. Sky on Saturday used it to try to raise interest in the sport. Wrong way round.

Shirow · Post by **Shirow** » 29 Apr 2004, 10:26

Plenty of intelligent replies here but no-one has mentioned the sheer number of available channels these days as a factor.

The fact is that boxing is a minority sport today and with so many different channels trying to catch viewers they have to decide on their approach according to their size.
Either lowest common for denominator big channels - Celebrity/chef/reality/gardening/home-makeover shows. Or small channels (satellite or cable) for niche markets. We're getting closer and closer to personlised tv channels so i think its only going to get worse - PPV (albeit cheaper than now) for individual matches eventually.

The big channels simply won't risk having their minority appeal programmes slaughtered by the latest Alan Titchmarsh vehicle.

God i'm depressed...

glittermonkey · Post by **glittermonkey** » 29 Apr 2004, 10:33

Freiheit wrote:Regarding tv coverage you should learn something from the germans when even a fight like Urkal vs Harris can get a 44% share of the viewers they must be doing something right.

The sad thing is that British fighters (in general) tend to be more exciting than their German counterparts. If guys like Urkal and Ottke can get massive ratings what could Hatton and Calzaghe do.
Boxing in Germany has slightly less competition in the way of other sports but 44% is still massive. Is it roughly comparable to the share for our soaps?

When and how is boxing screened and presented in Germany? Is it shown primetime on mainstream tv channels? How does it differ from our own coverage?

Sorry about all the questions, i'm just interested to see how it does so well out there.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 29 Apr 2004, 10:39

I lived in Munich for a year until last summer. Most of the boxing I watched was average Euro / German small-hall shows on Eurosport. That said, I wasn't watching much telly.

One thing I will say is that the Germans have unquestioning devotion to Sven Ottke. The guys I was working with found out my boxing roots and straight away launched into praising Sven. They hardly knew the names of any of his opponents, and barely any of them had heard of Joe Calzaghe. DM didn't fire the same enthusiasm.

Sorry to generalise, just the outsider looking in.

Freiheit · Post by **Freiheit** » 29 Apr 2004, 10:42

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Either German TV is very very shite, or perhaps it's the fact that they know their champion is guaranteed to win.

I mean, I find it amazing that anyone would tune in to watch Ottke, he's boring as hell, or was rather.

To put it into perspective, Pernell Whittaker was 10 times the fighter Ottke ever was, and he NEVER had a following of any size in the US.

And this was for a fight where the home fighter lost.

As I recall it boxing wasnt this popular when it was on the small german channels/pay channels but since both Sauerland & Universum got a contract with the two major terrestrial TV stations. Their fighters are also regulars on other major TV/talkshows that probably also helps. During the week up to the fight they are hyping it on the sportnews and if you look at the stations frontpage on the net its often on the frontpage.

As for the general tv program its probably not better or worse than in other countries.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Apr 2004, 10:45

It sounds like a vast marketing machine must have gotten behind Ottke from the day he won the gold medal, and yes, it's amazing how many people support him without knowing anything about boxing. He seems to have vast support with very little charisma, nor the style to make for exciting fights, it beggars belief.

When you think how much stick Lewis took for being a boring fart, and compare his fights to Ottke's it's really quite incredulous.

Freiheit · Post by **Freiheit** » 29 Apr 2004, 10:49

glittermonkey wrote:
Freiheit wrote:Regarding tv coverage you should learn something from the germans when even a fight like Urkal vs Harris can get a 44% share of the viewers they must be doing something right.
The sad thing is that British fighters (in general) tend to be more exciting than their German counterparts. If guys like Urkal and Ottke can get massive ratings what could Hatton and Calzaghe do.
Boxing in Germany has slightly less competition in the way of other sports but 44% is still massive. Is it roughly comparable to the share for our soaps?

When and how is boxing screened and presented in Germany? Is it shown primetime on mainstream tv channels? How does it differ from our own coverage?

Sorry about all the questions, i'm just interested to see how it does so well out there.

I think the Urkal vs Harris card started 22.55. They show one fight live and then one fight delayed, sometimes they cut a round or two. And then there is highlights from the other fights on the undercard. During the show there are plenty of interviews with other fighters, actors ect. I dont know how the shows are run in the UK since we cant see any of your channels here. Sauerland is on ARD and Universum is on ZDF (The stations are equal in size). They would probably equal BBC in the UK.

glittermonkey · Post by **glittermonkey** » 30 Apr 2004, 13:53

Cheers Freiheit.
From what you've said it seems to me that the German coverage is better than ours. There's no way the BBC would put boxing on at that sort of time on a weekend, it's usually shown sometime after 11pm over here. It seems you're right, there is something to be learnt from the Germans.

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 30 Apr 2004, 13:57

glittermonkey wrote:Cheers Freiheit.
From what you've said it seems to me that the German coverage is better than ours. There's no way the BBC would put boxing on at that sort of time on a weekend, it's usually shown sometime after 11pm over here. It seems you're right, there is something to be learnt from the Germans.

our promoters could learn a thing or 2 from there's as well there not scared to put there fighters in for proper world titles and european title fights.

glittermonkey · Post by **glittermonkey** » 30 Apr 2004, 14:05

I think that some of our promoters don't know that there's a European title.