Tommy Burns v Stanley Ketchel

[raylawpc]

Cap, do you really mean to say that Stanley Ketchel and Bill Squires were comparable as fighters?

[ben geoghegan]

Noah Brusso/Tommy Burns was a journeyman level talent. Ketchell was a vicious two handed hall of famer who hadn't even reached his prime. Look at their common opponents, Ketchell obviously better. Johnson dropped Brusso with the first punch of their fight. He could have ended it at any time. Brusso may have been fighting but he wasn't in that fight for even a minute. The Ketchell Johnson fight, well that was a sham fight. I don't rate Ketchell with one of the all time heavyweights in Jack Johnson, he was a middleweight

Ketchell by KO

[ebeneezer]

Burns was still fighting in the 14th round against Johnson. Ketchell was flat out cold in the 12th. Burns was easily the better boxer and the harder puncher.

Saying Tommy Burns was a harder puncher than Stanley Ketchel doesn't do much for you credibility.

Also Ketchl hurt Johnson bad around the 7th round of their fight and hurt and dropped him in the 12th.

[Ezzard]

Noah Brusso/Tommy Burns was a journeyman level talent. Ketchell was a vicious two handed hall of famer who hadn't even reached his prime. Look at their common opponents, Ketchell obviously better. Johnson dropped Brusso with the first punch of their fight. He could have ended it at any time. Brusso may have been fighting but he wasn't in that fight for even a minute. The Ketchell Johnson fight, well that was a sham fight. I don't rate Ketchell with one of the all time heavyweights in Jack Johnson, he was a middleweight

Ketchell by KO

Bob, I've heard it said on many occasions that Burns would have been a formidable fighter had he fought in the Light-Heavyweight division... Some even suggest he could have got down to MW and that he would have been some fighter there...

You seem to be suggesting otherwise.

[raylawpc]

Ezzard, Burns couldn't make the weight at middleweight after 1905. He did not have a good year in 1905, partially attributed to his trouble making the weight. Fighting at middleweight was not a viable option for Burns after 1905.

Stanley Weston wrote that both Burns and O'Brien weighed under the light-heavyweight limit for their second fight (Burns - 177; O'Brien - 167). The story goes that Burns could have claimed both the heavyweight and light-heavyweight titles after that win, but said, "Forget it. I don't want it. Let O'Brien keep it." Stanley Weston, The Heavyweight Champions p. 65 (1970).

Note: I mistyped earlier. Weston said Burns weighed 173 not 177.

[HomicideHenry]

As a middleweight, Burns defeated such men as Jack "Twin" Sullivan (the first time they fought it was for the claimed "middleweight championship of the world", where the two men fought to a twenty round draw; the second bout they had, Burns lost a 20 round decision) and mind you, most of Burns heavyweight title defenses, the "Little Giant of Hanover" weighed between 168-184 pounds, making him a super middleweight/light heavyweight/cruiserweight. But we're here to talk of Burns success at various weights specifically and what he done at those weights.

The Middleweight Burns:

Jack "Twin" Sullivan 0-1-1 (0)

Mike Schreck 0-1-1 (0)

Burns, though a middleweight, was taking on one of the more under-rated and crafty men of his time in Schreck, who was a heavyweight. The first time they fought, Burns lost a ten round decision to the southpaw, which was a first for Burns as he never seen a left handed fighter in his life; the rematch would take place the following year and Burns pulled off a six round draw. Schreck previously before facing Burns had defeated the likes of Jim Driscoll and drew Sullivan.

Throw in the fact that Burns was also the Michigan State middleweight champion as well, and you get a pretty decent middleweight, not a world class barnstormer, but nonetheless a formidable figure in his era to hang in with the best contenders in the world; Ketchell's record against Jack Sullivan? 1-0-0 (1) a kayo in the 20th round of a scheduled 35 round contest.

So somewhere inbetween Ketchell's win by kayo, and Burns draw and decision loss to Sullivan, you have to imagine that Burns was at least somewhere in the top five middleweights in the world.

The Light Heavyweight Burns:

At no less than 170 pounds, he done won the Heavyweight title from Marvin Hart via decision over 20 rounds, and as stated earlier from 168-174 were the majority of his title defenses. But we'll just focus in on his fights at Light Heavyweight (back then there was no super middleweight division, so from 161-175 was light heavyweight), defenses or not. He went 1-0-1 (0) against Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, knocked out Fireman Jim Flynn, knocked out Jem Roche the champion of Ireland at 1:28 of the 1st round, knocked out Jewey Smith the champion of South Africa in five, knocked out Jack Palmer in four, and of course, he also lost the title to Johnson at no more than 168 pounds.

Compare that to, let's say, Roy Jones or James Toney's venture into heavyweight when they originally started out as middleweights, and Burns is SUPERIOR to them as the quality of oppositon he overall faced and being no more than what he weighed, was better than say John Ruiz was for Jones and Booker was for Toney.

The Heavyweight Burns

Since no Cruiserweight division existed, from 176 and up was heavyweight back then. Burns defeated such men as Bill Lang (kayo in sixth), Bill Rickard (kayo in sixth), Bill Squires (kayos in the 1st, 8th, and 13th rounds), Gunner Moir (kayo in the tenth), drew Arthur Pelkey (the man who killed Luther McCarty), and lost by kayo in the 7th to Joe Beckett for the Commonwealth title when he was in the twilight of his career and been inactive for two years.

Overall one must say the Light Heavyweight Burns was the best Burns, and would have been a formidable contender even today at the weight; as a side note, in the last bout he and O'Brien had together (Burns was 1-1-1 against O'Brien), since it was done at 175, Burns could have claimed the Light Heavyweight crown as well, but insisted he didn't want the title. The Heavyweight Burns was, at best, a fringe contender like Danny Williams, Matt Skelton is today, but not quite good enough to be listed as one of the best "Empire" fighters of all time. The middleweight Burns, as said previously, could hang in there with the best of his time, and fit inside the top five.

Stanley Ketchell's record against Jack O'Brien? 2-0-0 (1), a decision over 10 and a kayo in 3 rounds.

How would Burns have faired against Ketchell? Hard to say, Burns went 14 hard fought rounds against Jack Johnson, while Ketchell only went 12 because for the first 11 Johnson had taken it easy on Ketchell (as per prior agreement). I still think Burns has the edge over Ketchell, but it's razor thin. Whether its 10 or 20 rounds, I think Burns could have decisioned him, or least lost while standing on his feet.

[Ezzard]

Ezzard, Burns couldn't make the weight at middleweight after 1905. He did not have a good year in 1905, partially attributed to his trouble making the weight. Fighting at middleweight was not a viable option for Burns after 1905.

Stanley Weston wrote that both Burns and O'Brien weighed under the light-heavyweight limit for their second fight (Burns - 177; O'Brien - 167). The story goes that Burns could have claimed both the heavyweight and light-heavyweight titles after that win, but said, "Forget it. I don't want it. Let O'Brien keep it." Stanley Weston, The Heavyweight Champions p. 65 (1970).

Thanks again, ray, always appreciate your opinions and knowledge.

Thanks too to Henry. I think Ketchel would win at around 170 but I always considered it to be a fairly close call.

[Cap]

Aw gowan wit ya! Tammy Burns woulda moidad dat bum Ketchel! Steve Ketchel was just a wild-swinging hick thumper of a middleweight who would have counted himself lucky to see the sixth round if he had had the guts to step with the hard little Canuck. Watch the films of Tommy that are still around. That boyo could swat, me son! And for a light heavyweight he was as quick as a cat. He let the opponent lead, then dart in and land a bomb with either hand. Watch that first round against Johnson again. No blow put Tommy down, he was wrassled down by the bigger man. Burns battled Johnson tooth and nail, busting Johnson's ribs in the process. In fact, many days later, Rudy Unholz, a trainer in Johnson's camp, admitted that, because he disliked Burns, he and an accomplice had crawled under the ring and hidden there, shouted to the police constable seated nearby to stop the fight. After the fight, Tommy rode a streetcar to the races while Johnson had his ribs taped up in hospital.

Burns lost to Sullivan in their second fight because he could no longer make 158 and stay strong. As for his two fights with leading contender Hugo Kelly, he had been forced to agree that a draw would be declared if he couldn't knock Kelly out. His fight with Sullivan for the title went the distance, and might easily have gone his way had it been held elsewhere. The West Coast press did not like Burns because he wasn't the dumb-as-a-post pug they were used to dealing with. He spoke for himself and wasn't afraid to demand the last cent he could get from a promoter. Late in 1908 overtures were made by Burns to several leading contenders including Kaufman, Schreck and Ketchel, but none of their agents could guarantee the $30,000 Burns demanded and later received from the Johnson fight.

Compare Tommy and Ketchel's fights with Jack O'Brien. O'Brien was still considered one of the best light heavyweights in the world in 1907, a master boxer with an iron chin. Yet, with the first exchange in the ring against Tommy Burns, O'Brien knew the jig was up. Watch the films. He quite literally ran from Burns for 40 rounds in their two fights. Two years later, O'Brien's hundreds of ring battles were beginning to catch up with him. He was 31, old for a top-line fighter in those days, and starting to slow down. Still, he managed to outbox Ketchel for most of their 10 rounds. Had he avoided that last punch from Ketchel, the decision would likely have gone to him and old Steve would be a footnote.

Tommy would have manhandled the smaller built Ketchel inside. He would have easily outboxed Ketchel on the outside. There is almost no conceivable way, short of a lucky punch or foul blow, that Ketchel could get a win over Burns in 1907-1908.

Cap