Michigan Silver Gloves

[Dennis]

To all coaches and boxers in Michigan. There is a proposal to change the experience classes. Currently we have:
A class: 11 or more bouts
B class: 5-10 bouts. B-class boxers can move to A class if their coach so desires.
C class: 0-4 bouts.

Proposed change:
A class: 11 or more bouts and boxers with less than 11 bouts who have 5 or more wins.
B class: 0-10 bouts but those with 5 or more wins must box in the A class.

I am concerned with having boxers with no experience or just 1 or 2 bouts of experience going up against a boxer with 6-10 bouts of experience. If the concern is the cost of having to give medals to numerous uncontested champions, then have the entry fee raised by $1-2 which will more than cover that expense. If a change has to be made, then I think it should be as follows:

A class: 5 or more contested bouts of experience.
B class: 0-4 bouts of actual contested bouts.
Walkovers and Medial DQ's would not count towards the total.

Please let's not take away the chance to compete for many inexperienced boxers just for the sake of saving a few dollars and let's not forget about the safety issue. Either keep it the way it currently is or change to my suggestion to better protect the safety of the boxers.

If anyone has strong feelings about this, please contact the Michigan Silver Gloves chairman, Gary Richards, at [email protected] to voice your concerns. Gary is a good guy and a big supporter of amateur boxing, but he is hearing from one side who are complaining about the costs of hosting the tournament. I want him to hear from the other side who want more kids to get into the sport and this proposal does not further that desire. You can also send a copy of your e-mail to the President of the Michigan LBC, Dave Packer, at [email protected].

[boxmel]

Dennis - just being curious - since there is no open or novice in the JO division, who have you previously entered into the Silver Gloves tournaments? Just the "A" class?

[DCAmateurBoxing]

Dennis - just being curious - since there is no open or novice in the JO division, who have you previously entered into the Silver Gloves tournaments? Just the "A" class?

I was going to ask about that too. How does this system affect your Silver Gloves Team from Michigan at the Regionals or Nationals? I undestand you are sending your best boxer(s), but are C Class boxers allowed to box A Class in MI? There are a lot of boxers that may not be able to get a lot of bouts because of size or maybe for other reasons, but I would think if you have a boxer with a few bouts who wants to enter the Silvers - that he or she would benefit from getting some A Class bouts before going to the next level of the tournament.

[boxmel]

I was really surprised to see that Michigan was on that kind of a rating system. Most LBCs put their kids in if they think they're ready - or don't. The only bout rule is that 15-16 year olds must have at least 5 scored bouts to enter the local tournament. I know Canada uses this type of system.

[Dennis]

Only the A class boxers (or B class if they move up to A class) advance to the Regional tournament. It is done so that more boxers enter the tournament and gain experience. We have hundreds of boxers enter our state tournament. If the rule change takes place, the number of boxers entering the tournament will go down.

[boxmel]

Your "A, B and C" stuff doesn't make sense to me. The only thing it seems to do is keep coaches from putting in kids with little experience in the advancing part of your tournament. In California, all 4 LBCs have local tournaments that advance two teams (Northern and Southern California) to the state tournament. There are no restrictions on how many bouts a boxer has before he or she enters the local tournaments. I have yet to see any boxer hurt. Overmatched? Sometimes - but coaches can retire and referees can stop. In many cases, the state and regional tournaments are the only events where a boxer can get any experience. And Silver Gloves also has open-ended bracketing, which gives every entry a chance to participate in the national championships.

[Dennis]

I think we get more entries because of the 3 classes. With only one class, there is no way most boxers with 0-4 bouts would enter the tournament. The A class boxers would like it as they would get easy bouts and easy wins. So now I know how some LBC's boxers have all those wins. They get green opponents. Mel - you always have a problem with the pros where the carefully managed boxers get set-up "tomato cans" for the first 10-20 wins. However, you don't think it is a problem in the J.O. ranks.

I would hate to see a kid with 0 bouts go into the ring against some of the Michigan J.O. open class boxers we have had.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

I think we get more entries because of the 3 classes. With only one class, there is no way most boxers with 0-4 bouts would enter the tournament. The A class boxers would like it as they would get easy bouts and easy wins. So now I know how some LBC's boxers have all those wins. They get green opponents. Mel - you always have a problem with the pros where the carefully managed boxers get set-up "tomato cans" for the first 10-20 wins. However, you don't think it is a problem in the J.O. ranks.

I would hate to see a kid with 0 bouts go into the ring against some of the Michigan J.O. open class boxers we have had.

I agree Dennis, it's more of a confidence builder for those kids who are just starting out. There are a lot of young boxers who have a lot of potential and winning a sub-novice (less than 5 bouts) tournament can be a big deal to them. There's no sense in throwing them to the wolves and having them get stopped by someone who has 50+ fights just because 'that's how it's supposed to be'. Amateur boxing should be about fostering young athletes not telling them to suck it or not compete. Which, frankly, is how it ends up coming across.

I really think it should be up to the coaches to match his or her boxer up with opponents he or she can compete with. That's what coaches are supposed to do. However, tournaments like the Ringside, Title, Comcast and many other invitationals still have the same issue of boxers facing opponents with a lot more experience. I don't know why 10 bouts is a magic number that deems a JO boxer is ready to be Open Class. I guess they had to pick some number. I guess it does lower that chances of this happening, but to me there is no difference between a boxer with either 5 bouts or 11 bouts facing an opponent with 50 or 60 plus. This does occur at many invitational tournaments.

I agree with Mel that a coach and referee can ultimately look out for the welfare of the boxer. I think the number of bouts a boxer has can also be misleading. Some of our boxers will box the same opponent over and over because there isn't anyone else available at that age/weight/experience. One of our boxers had the same opponent in 6 of his first 8 bouts. We've even had boxers from the same gym box in a show. We also have boxers that don't get a lot of bouts because of age/weight, so on paper they may look inexperienced - but they get so much good sparring that they may as well have 30-40 bouts of experience.

Again, I understand the logic behind it, but I think that the way most of the other LBCs handle JOs seems to be working and I prefer that versus the A, B or C. Usually for club shows, the coaches will do there own research into the experience of potential opponents by reviewing the book and talking with other coaches. Just my opinion.

[Dennis]

The novice tournaments usually have more entries than the open ones. Ringside has so many entries because they have novice classes. The Michigan GG has more entries in the novice classes than in the open classes. It is the same thing for the Silver Gloves and Junior Olympics. If our goal is to have a successful tournament, to get more kids involved in the sport and to get experience for boxers, the novice classes are vital.

[boxmel]

Mel - you always have a problem with the pros where the carefully managed boxers get set-up "tomato cans" for the first 10-20 wins. However, you don't think it is a problem in the J.O. ranks.

I think a coach should always be careful about overmatching his boxers - but I don't think he should record pad, either. And we all know coaches who try to keep their boxers from losing - to the detriment of both the boxer and the opponent.

I would hate to see a kid with 0 bouts go into the ring against some of the Michigan J.O. open class boxers we have had.

I would hope that a coach would not put a kid with no bouts in an advancing tournament unless it's the ONLY place he can get a bout. We had a JO HW many years ago who couldn't get a bout locally or regionally. He went to Marquette and won the championship in his fourth ever bout (Juan Cruz).

Ringside is using the arbitrary number of 10 to determine novice and open in the Junior Division - since there is NO novice or open designation in the Junior Division (except 5 recorded bouts in order to advance to the JO nationals).

I definitely agree with DCAB's opinion.

[Dennis]

We will disagree once again Mel. I like having non-advancing novice tournaments for J.O. boxers so that they can gain experience without worry about being overmatched. I am all for getting more kids into the sport and this works. Michigan has one of the highest numbers of registered athletes and I think this may be a big contributor to that success. Typically, the more athletes you have, the more fans you have. A lot of the boxers continue to be involved in the sport later as coaches, officials and fans. I think everyone should be trying to increase the number of people involved in our sport. Just think how great it would be if every LBC doubled the number of athletes they have from 2008 to 2009 and then again for 2010. Do you think it would help our sport to grow? Without a doubt.

[boxmel]

I like having non-advancing novice tournaments for J.O. boxers so that they can gain experience without worry about being overmatched.

I'm not against it - don't agree or disagree.

Michigan has one of the highest numbers of registered athletes and I think this may be a big contributor to that success.

Southern California has the highest number of registered boxers - without novice tournaments for JO boxers.

Typically, the more athletes you have, the more fans you have.

Our over 1,400 boxers don't seem to generate a fan base except for friends and family. And we do have quite a bit of them at shows.

Just think how great it would be if every LBC doubled the number of athletes they have from 2008 to 2009 and then again for 2010. Do you think it would help our sport to grow? Without a doubt.

If we doubled, that would give our one Association over 2,800 registered boxers.
the mere thought gives me a headache! I doubt that we could have enough shows to even give them all opportunities for competing! It would certainly bring in more $$$ to the LBC and USA Boxing coffers, if that's what you mean by growing our sport - but that's about it.

[Dennis]

Of course S.Cal should have more boxers than Michigan, your population is a lot more. Michigan has more #'s than many LBC's that have larger populations. I know that our LBC is usually in the top 5 for number of registered athletes with well over 1,000. Yes, Southern California is usually #1. I think Illinois and Metro NY are well over 1,000 too (big metro areas with Chicago and NYC respectively).

[boxmel]

Hmmm - did you miss my point that doubling the number of registered boxers in the So. Cal. Assn. would probably cause us to drown?

[Dennis]

No Mel - you would adjust. With more boxers, would come more gyms, more volunteers, more fans, more interest, more shows and maybe the sport would continue to grow.

[boxmel]

No Mel - you would adjust. With more boxers, would come more gyms, more volunteers, more fans, more interest, more shows and maybe the sport would continue to grow.

I'm not so sure of that, Dennis. We have over 100 gyms now - more than we can adequately accommodate in our local shows - and we have two, if not three, shows every weekend. And no matter what we do, volunteers are not dropping out of trees. When people interested in becoming officials find out that they have to be trained, and that means attending shows on a consistent basis, they tend to fade away.

[Dennis]

Try getting coaches. Coming to the gym every day and then going to shows/tournaments on a consistent basis.

[boxmel]

I have an enormous amount of respect for the coaches - most of whom volunteer their services spending countless hours working with kids, spending their own money, often at the expense of their own families.

[Dennis]

Coaches, officials and the extreme coach/official combos are all nuts. We all give so much.

[boxmel]

My husband's opinion is that to be involved in amateur boxing makes you a certified nut. DD

[Dennis]

Well of course, nobody listened to me. It is a done deal with the Silver Gloves. 2 classes - A and B. A is for boxers with more than 10 bouts or anyone with 5 or more wins. B class is for everyone else. Our gym has about 8 kids that now won't be going to the tournament as they have 0 - 2 bouts of experience and aren't ready for more experienced boxers.

[boxmel]

A and B. A is for boxers with more than 10 bouts or anyone with 5 or more wins.

5 or more wins? Not just 5 scored bouts? That sucks for the inexperienced kids. Who's idea was it - Gary Richards???? Hope not.

[Dennis]

5 or more wins and they have to move into the A class. I'm sure a boxer with 5 bouts, but not 5 wins can move to A class if their coach so chooses.

[boxmel]

How about the boxer/coach/official combo?

Definitely schizo. D

[Dennis]

I'm not sure how much work an Official would get who is also a current boxer. Amy, do you get assigned to shows? If so, in what capacity?