Jack Dempsey vs Harry Greb

[Seamus]

It was supposed to happen somewhere between 1920 and 1924 but obviously never did. Had Dempsey defended his title against Greb, how do you think the fight would have gone ?

I see Greb outboxing and at times embarassing Dempsey with his handspeed, but eventually Dempsey catches up with him and scores a KO around the 8th round.

[raylawpc]

Jack Dempsey would have had the advantage in size, strength and power. Greb would have had the advantage in speed. However, Dempsey was quick for a heavyweight, which should have negated Greb's speed advantage somewhat. Tunney's best strategy against Greb was when he went to the body. I recall reading that Walker, too, looked most effective in his losing effort to Greb when Mickey went to the body. Dempsey, by all accounts, was a strong and effective body puncher. I'd pick Dempsey.

(Its not surprising that opponents could reach Greb to the body. In the few short clips were have of him shadow boxing and sparring against old-timer Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Greb moved his elbows up and down like an ostrich trying to take flight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO2dTnFl2Z0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFItTXTE ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMA6Pd6t ... re=related )

[ben geoghegan]

Dempsey by KO

[Cojimar 1945]

Greb holds wins over guys Dempsey defended the title against such as Tommy Gibbons, Bill Brennan and Billy Miske. Dempsey certainly should have fought Greb.

[raylawpc]

Was anyone clamoring for this fight in the 1920s? I don't ever recall reading anything about it. Did a promoter state his intention of making this match?

[klompton]

The Birmingham club in Pittsburgh, Queensberry AC in Buffalo, two clubs in Milwaukee, Floyd Fitzsimmons and several others all made bonified offers for a fight between Greb and Dempsey. Some were to a decision, others were not. Dempsey and his manager talked several times of being willing but never came through. There is a reason why he wouldnt face Greb even though he was willing to face guys Greb defeated easily (the most blatant of these was in 1923 when he faced Tommy Gibbons despite Gibbons losing a match to Greb which was set up as an elimination bout for the Heavyweight Championship) or guys like Carpentier who steadfastly refused to face Greb. The answer is simple: A lot of risk against very little reward. Greb could have beaten Dempsey, he wouldnt have been the favorite but its entirely possible he could have beaten him. Then Dempsey has just lost to a middleweight. Not good. Dempsey could have outpointed Greb but lets face it thats not going to be easy and even if he wins a decision press reports arent going to be kind that you went the distance with a middleweight. So then what happens if Dempsey knocks Greb out? The press just says he just KOd a middleweight, which is what he should have done anyway and the mismatch shouldnt have been madeto begin with. So in my opinion Greb deserved a title shot more than anyone with the exception of Wills but I can understand why he didnt.

[raylawpc]

Thanks Klompton - what year were those offers made?

[klompton]

Philadelphia, Buffalo, and Pittsburgh had offers on the table as early as 1919. Pittsburgh was continually in negotiations with Dempsey and Kearns pretty much throughout Dempseys reign. the two Milwaukee promoters made offers for a Greb-Dempsey bout in 1920 (also a Greb-Carpentier fight), as did Floyd Fitzsimmons. Fitzsimmons made several offers to before giving up in about 1925. Rickard was willing to make the match from about late 1921 on but stopped seriously working on it after Greb won the middleweight title. Several others worked off an on to make the match but Kearns always acted as a major roadblock to it. Dempsey put out a lot of double talk as well but like I said lots or risk versus very little reward.

[raylawpc]

Thanks

[Seamus]

Here's some accounts of there sparring sessions http://www.harrygreb.com/dempsey_greb.html

[Robinson]

Would have been good if Dempsey had of fought anyone oh say from...
late 1923 to 1926.....Greb would have been a good challenge...even if
he was a tad light, atleast his skin colour would have allowed him a
shot at Dempsey's title.

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

In a very difficult match, Dempsey by K.O.

[tonyevs]

Tunney out grew Greb by the time they last fought .. isn`t there an interview where Greb says Tunney is getting too big for him?? as their fights went on Tunney is said to have won them easier, maybe it was because he was still growing or maybe it was because he just worked Grebs style out, but Dempsey looked the stronger against Tunney in both their fights ... so with that in mind I see Dempsey out working Greb.

[raylawpc]

Tunney out grew Greb by the time they last fought .. isn`t there an interview where Greb says Tunney is getting too big for him?? as their fights went on Tunney is said to have won them easier, maybe it was because he was still growing or maybe it was because he just worked Grebs style out, but Dempsey looked the stronger against Tunney in both their fights ... so with that in mind I see Dempsey out working Greb.

The only "blow-outs" were the first fight (won by Greb) and fifth fight (a no decision won by Tunney according to all the press accounts). The second and third fights were close decisions taken by Tunney. The fourth fight was a no decision in Cleveland that many called a draw.

Tunney hurt Greb with a punch to the sternum (I think) early in the fifth fight. Tunney said that he carried Greb the rest of the way, at Greb's request.

[Adamj1987]

Greb by a mile for 2 main reasons
1) he beat some heavyweights more convincingly than dempsey did while giving away lots of weight and
2) he mauled dempsey 3 times in exhibitions

Greb by KO after dempsey resembles sothing like jess wilard did after there fight

[Seamus]

Dempseyfire you wanna handle this ?

[Goodnight, Irene]

No Middleweight who ever drew breath beats a prime Jack Dempsey (& Greb is at the top of my list among the great Middles).

[dempseyfire]

I greatly admire both fighters. Greb is definitely in my top list of top 3 to lace them up EVER and in my opinion has the most impressive record in the history of boxing.

That being said, Dempsey has to be favored here prime vs prime. Sparring sessions mean diddly. How many times in history have we heard stories of certain fighters apparently having an edge on an opponent in the gym and then when the real fight occurs they get demolished? I do think Dempsey has a hard time while it lasts, and if scheduled for 4-6 rounds, Greb could win a 'Meehan' like decision based on workrate. The reports show, however, that Greb's style made him vulnerable to a body attack. Jack Dempsey was perhaps the greatest body puncher of all the Heavyweight champions. 15 rounds with Jack working his body in the clinches? Greb is not going to last the distance.

[pete]

I agree.Greb a greater fighter,Dempsey a better heavyweight.

[slakka]

I have prime Harry Greb dominating Dempsey in 3 Benton Harbor encounters
9/1920 as well as a prior encounter 7/1920 in the Van Kelton stadium in nyc.
The 3 Benton Harbor encounters were witnessed by the senior boxing writer on the scene in that day Ed W. Smith of the Chi American, the 1 NYC encounter by another notable, Francis Albertani who actually worked for Dempsey. Together they synthesize into a very remarkable picture of a super fighting machine, in my own personal opinion, the greatest the world has ever known.

Too be sure, those on the scene, including Dempsey, Doc Kearns and Teddy Hayes, related this scenario in interviews for the rest of there lives.

It was in the following year that Harry lost an eye and began fighting with his head "tilted sideways" to accommodate his limited vision, as Jimmy McLarnin related to me. His greatest battles and the bulk of his fame, neg labels' ect, lay ahead, and his accomplishments of them with limited sight, is a story that has never been properly told.

[Ezzard]

I have prime Harry Greb dominating Dempsey in 3 Benton Harbor encounters
9/1920 as well as a prior encounter 7/1920 in the Van Kelton stadium in nyc.
The 3 Benton Harbor encounters were witnessed by the senior boxing writer on the scene in that day Ed W. Smith of the Chi American, the 1 NYC encounter by another notable, Francis Albertani who actually worked for Dempsey. Together they synthesize into a very remarkable picture of a super fighting machine, in my own personal opinion, the greatest the world has ever known.

Too be sure, those on the scene, including Dempsey, Doc Kearns and Teddy Hayes, related this scenario in interviews for the rest of there lives.

It was in the following year that Harry lost an eye and began fighting with his head "tilted sideways" to accommodate his limited vision, as Jimmy McLarnin related to me. His greatest battles and the bulk of his fame, neg labels' ect, lay ahead, and his accomplishments of them with limited sight, is a story that has never been properly told.

Sounds like you've got some great resources there, Slakka. Thanks for sharing.

[raylawpc]

I have prime Harry Greb dominating Dempsey in 3 Benton Harbor encounters
9/1920 as well as a prior encounter 7/1920 in the Van Kelton stadium in nyc.
The 3 Benton Harbor encounters were witnessed by the senior boxing writer on the scene in that day Ed W. Smith of the Chi American, the 1 NYC encounter by another notable, Francis Albertani who actually worked for Dempsey. Together they synthesize into a very remarkable picture of a super fighting machine, in my own personal opinion, the greatest the world has ever known.

Too be sure, those on the scene, including Dempsey, Doc Kearns and Teddy Hayes, related this scenario in interviews for the rest of there lives.

It was in the following year that Harry lost an eye and began fighting with his head "tilted sideways" to accommodate his limited vision, as Jimmy McLarnin related to me. His greatest battles and the bulk of his fame, neg labels' ect, lay ahead, and his accomplishments of them with limited sight, is a story that has never been properly told.

Accounts of those sparring sessions are available at

http://www.harrygreb.com/dempsey_greb.html

Three rounds of sparring in training gloves and (perhaps) headgear is not the same as a 15-round championship fight.

[slakka]

I haven’t got time to explain why Ed W. Smith and Francis Albertani take precedence over the boiler plate wire service report on the website you recommend. The fighters sparred with 8oz gloves with no headgear as there’s film of Demps in this training camp as proof. Fighters went at it 12 rnds in total that year. Most importantly Demps-Teddy Hayes-Doc Kearns recollected these encounters for the rest of there lives the way they did for a very good reason.

[HomicideHenry]

Greb certainly would have been a harder opponent than the French crepe Georges Carpentier, thats for sure.

[raylawpc]

I haven’t got time to explain why Ed W. Smith and Francis Albertani take precedence over the boiler plate wire service report on the website you recommend. The fighters sparred with 8oz gloves with no headgear as there’s film of Demps in this training camp as proof. Fighters went at it 12 rnds in total that year. Most importantly Demps-Teddy Hayes-Doc Kearns recollected these encounters for the rest of there lives the way they did for a very good reason.

I recommended nothing. I pointed out that reports are available on the site.

Can you give us information regarding when and where these reports you site were published so that we can read them for ourselves? Thanks.