Joe: "Screw Hopkins"

[Khaosai-Galaxy]

More boxrec tripe



Ah yes, i must now invoke boxrec rule number 3 and make an amendment, if i may


3) "Joe Calzaghe will never get my respect until he fights... Lacy, Kessler, Hopkins, Pavlik or Hopkins for a 2nd time"

And if he does fight Bernard again (and for gods sake what kind of masochist wants to sit through that again?) what will you wretched people hold against him then?

[WildWaylon]

I love it.... poor svenny his natural rival wasn't worth beating.The man who had 20 defences and held a more pretigious title for 8 of Joe's 10 years.

Most of the greats give rematches to fighters they might have had a lucky escape with. Its a mark of a great fighter. I mean, had their hands raised controvesially (for whatever reason) but still given the a 2nd bite at the cherry. Only 2 I can think of, off the top of my head, in the modern era that failed to was Lewis and Joe - maybe says something about the mindset of British fighters?

Roy, Holyfield, Tyson, Toney, Barrera, Morales, Pacquiao, Ricardo Lopez, Whittikar, Mosley, Winky, Mayweather - all said "okay he deserves a 2nd crack".... Not Joe or Lewis - although to be fair to Lewis there was only really Mercer and then Klitchsko who fell into that category.

And I don't mean giving someone a crack who you have KO'd in one round. Joe should have given Reid a rematch, and he should give Hopkins one.

I expect if Sven was willing to come here they would have fought. Maybe Joe has the same Philosophy as me. I have never gone back to a woman, never gone back to a job, never given anyone a second chance who has let me down. I always move on and never look back. F*ck what has been, look for pastures new is my motto. Joes opponents had their chance, didnt do enough so they didnt get the nod. Had Joe been beaten and was given a rematch I would have to agree with you.

[WildWaylon]

I love it.... poor svenny his natural rival wasn't worth beating.The man who had 20 defences and held a more pretigious title for 8 of Joe's 10 years. .

Stu, I know you bring up Sven's name a lot in Calzaghe debates but you leave out one vital fact - Ottke's trainer is on the record as saying that the match could never have been made as Sven made it clear to him that he didn't want to take the fight - doesn't matter how willing Joe/Warren might have been, despite Ottke's trainer being up for it the man himself didn't want it. He's the one to blame in this particular circumstance, not Calzaghe.

Ottke's trainer and team were on record once I believe (circumstance/feelings can change; David Haye said the Mormeck fight would be his last at Cruiserweight and told Enzo Mac he'd fight him at Heavyweight) in saying that they didn't want the fight outside of Germany.... Warren/Joe were on record saying they didn't want the fight in Germany. Both are equally to blame, but Ottke gets all of the blame.

Ottke won fights he lost. Joe would have been crazy to go to Germany.

[stujones]

Wax on,

Okay fair comment - the ref was way out of order in the Reid fight... but when was that 2005? What happend in the previous 7 years.

Wild - well he did once, vs Viet.... he was rematch worthy apparently.

Deserter - I don't know about that interview... but Joe/Warren have been record likewise saying they would never have fought Sven in Germany, and am going on what the team said at the time. Money talks and all.

[stujones]

Ottke won fights he lost. Joe would have been crazy to go to Germany.

Common myth about Ottke cause he based his career in germany. Name the fights he "lost".

Lost of people think Joe lost to Reid and Hopkins, lots of people think Sven lost to Reid and Larsen. But really thats the only controvesial ones.

[REAL_DEAL]

You forgot Ottke first win against Charles Brewer.

[stujones]

You forgot Ottke first win against Charles Brewer.

Some people thought that was controvesial I guess, but then Ottke gave Brewer a rematch and beat him fair and square, beyond doubt.

[caffrey]

No one really knows the ins and outs for sure, But the facts are he is an unbeaten 2 weight world champ and along the way has beaten the following names:

Eubank
Reid
Sheik
Woodhall
Brewer
Mitchell
Lacy
Kessler
Hopkins

How when or where he's beaten them is irrelevent - he did it. Seems to me he could go on forever beating people and still some would say he aint fought Dawson or he didint fight so and so in his prime...

Eubank - Old and weight drained
Reid - ex-champ coming off a loss, SD that many had reid winning, Calazage wouldnt rematch
Sheika - average
Woodhall - decent ex belt holder coming off a loss, good win
Brewer - Ex belt holder coming off a 2 round KO loss to Echols - why no echols fight?
Mitchell - Good win, Mitchell coming off a loss to Otke, but that could have gone either way, but a very premature stoppage as Mitchell landed the last punch of the night
Lacy - very good emphatic win, Lacy wasn't that good, with poor defense and wide shots but he was tearign through opponents
Kessler - Excellent, excellent win, Kessler isnt P4P quality but he is quality
Hopkins - He lost against a 43yo ATG

People he avoided: Glen Johnson, Vanderpool, Echols, Mundine. He didn't go after other champions like Prime Roy Jones, Prime Hopkins (he did try but Hopkins went for the mega money against Delahoya), Otke and Beyer (who may not have faced him but he didnt try).

come on vanderpool,johnson,echols and mundine are not even on the same planet as calzaghe.I hardly think he would seriously have avoided either of these

[Asterix]

More boxrec tripe



Ah yes, i must now invoke boxrec rule number 3 and make an amendment, if i may


3) "Joe Calzaghe will never get my respect until he fights... Lacy, Kessler, Hopkins, Pavlik or Hopkins for a 2nd time"

And if he does fight Bernard again (and for gods sake what kind of masochist wants to sit through that again?) what will you wretched people hold against him then?

You can add Chad Dawson to the list. There are plenty of people calling for that.

Personally, I'd like to see Joe beat Jones Jr and then retire.

[Asterix]

More boxrec tripe



Ah yes, i must now invoke boxrec rule number 3 and make an amendment, if i may


3) "Joe Calzaghe will never get my respect until he fights... Lacy, Kessler, Hopkins, Pavlik or Hopkins for a 2nd time"

And if he does fight Bernard again (and for gods sake what kind of masochist wants to sit through that again?) what will you wretched people hold against him then?

You can add Chad Dawson to the list. There are plenty of people calling for that.

Personally, I'd like to see Joe beat Jones Jr and then retire.

[stujones]

Johnson was certainly a credible opponent for Joe - I mean at one stage he held unavenged wins over Woods, Tarver, and Jones and was in a lot of P4P bracket. He would still be a tough fight for Joe. Joe didn't impress in his Light Heavyweight debut.

Echols was another who was considered THE main challenger to Joe at Super Middleweight, well the best non title holder. He had a punchers chance and was more of a threat than most of Joe's more credible opponents (e.g. he'd just beaten Brewer).

You can add many more to that list - not saying there was ever negotiations that Joe backed out of but these were credible opponents.

Catley - WBC Champion - "beat" Woodhall, beat Beyer... might not have been the greatest, but a credible champion.

Sugar Boy Malinga - Always tricky and again was a champion, could have made a unification fight.

Dave Hilton - Again a WBC champion.

Frankie Liles - many saw as the #1 in the devision at the time of Eubank vs Calzaghe and was desperately on the slide and easy win and a fantastic scalp.

Aside the likes of Ottke, Beyer, Jones, Toney, Prime Hopkins, Harry Simon, Winky etc.

[Grilling Machine]

I don't think Calzaghe was scared of Ottke in any way, but the option of a US meeting didn't look to be on. And while Catley, Echols and Malinga were worthy, again - I don't think they worried Joe. Francis probably did, yet he never became a mandatory (from memory).

And while Johnson was the man to beat a few years ago, he was up at LH and busy there. Then again, I'm not sure Glen couldn't have made 170 for a catch weight. Close-to-prime Toney, Jones and Hopkins are the glaring omissions. Toney's forgivable due to his weight beyond '97.

Calzaghe's most impressive win, for me, remains Eubank. Followed by his destruction of Mark Delaney.

[Gray-Fox]

Joe doesn't want to put his body through all that training again for a fight that he might well lose. I can understand that.

[Deserter]

I don't think Calzaghe was scared of Ottke in any way, but the option of a US meeting didn't look to be on. And while Catley, Echols and Malinga were worthy, again - I don't think they worried Joe. Francis probably did, yet he never became a mandatory (from memory).
Calzaghe's most impressive win, for me, remains Eubank. Followed by his destruction of Mark Delaney.

A lot of people forget that Joe destroyed both Catley and Francis in the Amateurs, and while fighters obviously develop differently, the idea that he would have ducked either in the pro ranks is ridiculous.
Must admit that I'm mystified as to how the Delaney result could be regarded as more impressive than the triumphs over Kessler and Lacy

[Daveyswan]

Wax on,

Okay fair comment - the ref was way out of order in the Reid fight... but when was that 2005? What happend in the previous 7 years.

Wild - well he did once, vs Viet.... he was rematch worthy apparently.

Deserter - I don't know about that interview... but Joe/Warren have been record likewise saying they would never have fought Sven in Germany, and am going on what the team said at the time. Money talks and all.


Stue your missing the point. He didint give Viet a rematch it was that he had to fight him as he was the mandatory for the second time. He was going to fight Mcgee but Veit team appealled and he went to Germany to defend rather than be stripped....

[Autobarn]

Johnson was certainly a credible opponent for Joe - I mean at one stage he held unavenged wins over Woods, Tarver, and Jones and was in a lot of P4P bracket. He would still be a tough fight for Joe. Joe didn't impress in his Light Heavyweight debut.

Echols was another who was considered THE main challenger to Joe at Super Middleweight, well the best non title holder. He had a punchers chance and was more of a threat than most of Joe's more credible opponents (e.g. he'd just beaten Brewer).

You can add many more to that list - not saying there was ever negotiations that Joe backed out of but these were credible opponents.

Catley - WBC Champion - "beat" Woodhall, beat Beyer... might not have been the greatest, but a credible champion.

Sugar Boy Malinga - Always tricky and again was a champion, could have made a unification fight.

Dave Hilton - Again a WBC champion.

Frankie Liles - many saw as the #1 in the devision at the time of Eubank vs Calzaghe and was desperately on the slide and easy win and a fantastic scalp.

Aside the likes of Ottke, Beyer, Jones, Toney, Prime Hopkins, Harry Simon, Winky etc.

No one's going to fight everyone though are they?

Even when Hopkins and Jones held p4p #1 spots, many were not happy wth whom they were fighting. I know, they had reasons - Jones getting 5mil per alphabet title defence on HBO (rules out unifications with Showtime fighters, etc), Hopkins stuck with King, only fights mandatories and alphabet contenders until he gets out of contract so he can make more...

Admittedly, Joe had few qualms about having a relatively weak resume. But you have to factor in things like rival TV stations, rival sanctioning bodies, champions being in different countries, injuries, etc etc. Its chaos out there. Definitely, Joe should have more good stuff on his ledger.

Joe's list of challengers aren't so hot, but scalps like Lacy, Kessler, Hopkins are certainly very good. It's just a shame he didn't beat Hopkins more clearly.

I'll be happy if Joe beats Jones, retires, leaving the light heavyweight division to be settled by guys like Dawson, Hopkins, Johnson, and exciting contenders on the way up like Shumenov & Cloud.

For all his flaws (stylistic, level of comp, reluctance), Joe has paved the way for British fighters to get respect & paydays in America.

[Autobarn]

He doesent have to do anything fxxx hopkins - He went to Vegas went through all the crap that comes with working alongside Hopkins selling the fight - which I should imagine is knackering. got the nod from the jusdges in the other mans Country. Why should he do it all again?? if he did people would be back on his back here saying its all about the money.

I can think of two big reasons. Unfinished business from close first fight. And Hopkins saying he'd come to the UK.

[stujones]

No true, no one is going to fight everyone, but lets be honest most of those names I mentioned (barring Toney, Hopkins, Jones, Ottke and possibly a prime Beyer) were not going to cause Joe major problems and yet Joe was fighting inferior names.

Frank Liles - contracted to SN, Catley - contracted to SN, Malinga - dealt with SN on many occasions... not hard fights to make. Even the timing of his other fights - I mean Joe could have beaten Brewer when he was IBF champion (I mean Herol Graham was 3 rounds away from doing it) - so why wait till he lost to Echols. Why wait till Mitchell lost to Ottke, why have the supposed clash with Magee and not the guy who had just beaten him (Reid), why not fight Reid, Woodhall when they were champions. Glen Johnson was made at a time when Johnson stock was so high.

I personally don't think Frank is offering b/s when he says Joe has an underlying low confidence about his ability and thats why he seems to wait for the threat to be exposed before taking them on. Joe came very close to pulling out of the Lacy fight (for the umpteenth time) and that was admitted before relations were strained between Joe and Warren. Joe's been man enough to admit that he can see why so many thought Hopkins beat him, and I credit him for that, so why not give him a 2nd chance.

Re: The Veit rematch - I know the scenerio about it, but the bottom line is that was a 2nd easy title defence from mr "I don't do rematches". But regardless, had the fight not happend look at what was the scenerio going to be... Brian Magee. Indirectly, we are complaining that Joe didn't fight Brian Magee - which speaks volumes.

[jamesmcdonnell]

No true, no one is going to fight everyone, but lets be honest most of those names I mentioned (barring Toney, Hopkins, Jones, Ottke and possibly a prime Beyer) were not going to cause Joe major problems and yet Joe was fighting inferior names.

Frank Liles - contracted to SN, Catley - contracted to SN, Malinga - dealt with SN on many occasions... not hard fights to make. Even the timing of his other fights - I mean Joe could have beaten Brewer when he was IBF champion (I mean Herol Graham was 3 rounds away from doing it) - so why wait till he lost to Echols. Why wait till Mitchell lost to Ottke, why have the supposed clash with Magee and not the guy who had just beaten him (Reid), why not fight Reid, Woodhall when they were champions. Glen Johnson was made at a time when Johnson stock was so high.

I personally don't think Frank is offering b/s when he says Joe has an underlying low confidence about his ability and thats why he seems to wait for the threat to be exposed before taking them on. Joe came very close to pulling out of the Lacy fight (for the umpteenth time) and that was admitted before relations were strained between Joe and Warren. Joe's been man enough to admit that he can see why so many thought Hopkins beat him, and I credit him for that, so why not give him a 2nd chance.

Re: The Veit rematch - I know the scenerio about it, but the bottom line is that was a 2nd easy title defence from mr "I don't do rematches". But regardless, had the fight not happend look at what was the scenerio going to be... Brian Magee. Indirectly, we are complaining that Joe didn't fight Brian Magee - which speaks volumes.

Can only concur.

Those who blame Warren for Calzaghe's career are missing the point. Joe has been content throughout his career to fight from home against hand-picked opponents who offered a better risk reward ratio. He avoided going stateside for years, because of an apparent phobia of flying, yet was able to fly in to watch boxing matches - clearly utter cobblers.

As good as Joe's career has been, I still consider it a missed opportunity. Had he fought a consistently better level of competition, then maybe he would have had one or two losses on his career - but he would be able to wave off any accusations of having avoided anyone. Kessler and Lacy were excellent wins, Hopkins, a disputed split decision against an old stager - not so great, when you consider that Jermaine Taylor did just as well, and Taylor has been subsequently shown to be less than great.

I will always hesitate about bestowing the word 'great' on Calzaghe for just this reason, there were simply not enough fights against his peers at the weight to utterly confirm it. There were plenty of fighters available who have been listed ad nauseum on here, and none of them materialised.

[Brian Moore]

Given that Hopkins beat Calzaghe it's little wonder the greedy Welshman doesn't fancy a rematch.

[Datsue]

Amongst all the themes running through this thread, I have only two things to say:

1) Retire after beating RJJr, Joe. Walk away & count your money, dude. For me, once a bloke gets old enough, it's not really fair to expect him to be taking the megarisks. Criticise him all you want for not taking them when he was younger, but feck me at pushing 37 I think it's fair enough to say "Well done lad. Even if you could've done it better, now's the time to call it a day".

2) & this is my main point about the thrust of this thread: putting aside "historic achievment" kinda things (which let's be fair exist only in the fevered brains of those who like to dub themselves boxing historians), Joe versus Ottke would have been as aesthetically pleasing as live abortion footage. Trading jabs three times a round, one or two shoe-shines, loads of smothering, clinching; it would've got bad-tempered with both fouling, both styles would've been to a degree negated (& weren't ultra-pretty edge of seat stuff to begin with), both would've been ultra-cautious at sizing the other up, lots of posturing: ugly ugly ugly. I'm glad, at least, that I never had to sit through it, because it would've made the Baby Jesus cry.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

"So I can retire with a clear conscience knowing that I've beaten everyone who's worth beating.
"I heard Hopkins wanted a rematch with me, but I don't do rematches.

I really hope Jones KTFO of him

You unpatriotic bugger.

I'm neither Italian or Sheep Shager

[WildWaylon]

"So I can retire with a clear conscience knowing that I've beaten everyone who's worth beating.
"I heard Hopkins wanted a rematch with me, but I don't do rematches.

I really hope Jones KTFO of him

You unpatriotic bugger.

I'm neither Italian or Sheep Shager

I get your point, but I am assuming you are British.

[Grilling Machine]

A lot of people forget that Joe destroyed both Catley and Francis in the Amateurs

How old were they (17 and 19)? Dean was one of those who came good as a pro. Don't forget Starie, either.

Must admit that I'm mystified as to how the Delaney result could be regarded as more impressive than the triumphs over Kessler and Lacy

Delaney was unbeaten and apparently a very decent opponent. Calzaghe annihilated him. It was a display of utter dominance.

I also think Mosley's win over Adrian Stone was one of Shane's best nights. It's a personal thing; the difference between Ali's fights with Frazier and Williams.

[tony3]

Why can't people on here give Calzaghe a break?

Okay, he has on occasion issued statements that in retrospect have made him look slightly foolish but he certainly isn't the first boxer to make that mistake and you can bet your bottom dollar that he won't be the last. But the fact remains that we are very lucky to have someone around who is capable of championing the sport of boxing at the very top level and no matter how thick the tide of critisism may have become, I still think that he is a bloody good fighter - even a fringe hall of famer.