Joe Bugner v. Vitali Klitschko

[wouter]

For some reason I've come to the conclusion that if there were no Ali, Frazier and Foreman around in Bugner's day, he'd be Vitali Klitschko and if Ali, Foreman and Frazier were around today that Klitschko would be Bugner. In a fight between the two I'd take Bugner by a comfortable decision. What do you think?

[bennie]

For some reason I've come to the conclusion that if there were no Ali, Frazier and Foreman around in Bugner's day, he'd be Vitali Klitschko and if Ali, Foreman and Frazier were around today that Klitschko would be Bugner. In a fight between the two I'd take Bugner by a comfortable decision. What do you think?

Can't agree. Bugner was essentially a survivor, a top class journeyman. Sure, every dog has its day and he put up a good (losing) fight against Frazier, but only because Frazier really made him fight. Moreover, Bugner was a 'big' heavy for his day and that size helped him survive against a lot of smaller men.
Klitschko is big and comes to win, and those things clearly separate the two.

[wouter]

I don't mean they're indentical stylewise, but in the role they'd play on the world scene. If Bugner had to fight Corrie Sanders and Sam Peter for the title he'd be a 2-time champion too.

[SteveO]

IMO I think a prime Bugner could possibly beat Sam Peter and Nikolai Valuev but probably not a 'fit' Corrie Sanders and definitely not Vitali Klitschko.

[hhaehre]

IMO I think a prime Bugner could possibly beat Sam Peter and Nikolai Valuev but probably not a 'fit' Corrie Sanders and definitely not Vitali Klitschko.

Remove the 'possibly' in 'beat Sam Peter' and the 'probably' in 'not a fit Corrie Sanders' and I am in perfect agreement with you. I think Bugner is a bit overrated these days. He was never that good but he was durable and long lasting. He ran hot and cold but he always lost against the best. He also lost against a few fighters that he had no business losing to. Can anyone imagine Vitali bested by Jack Bodell ?

[SteveO]

Yes, Bugner did not always fight to his full potential but when he was 'up' for it he was pretty good.

[wouter]

IMO I think a prime Bugner could possibly beat Sam Peter and Nikolai Valuev but probably not a 'fit' Corrie Sanders and definitely not Vitali Klitschko.

Klitschko never beat a 'fit' Corrie Sanders either.

[dempseyfire]

Bugner would EASILY beat Sam Peter, it would be laughable. Sure Bugner had some bad nights but hell even Jack Bodell threw lots of punches/combinations and was in top shape, something that can't be said for the plodding Dinosaur Peter.

As for Sanders, Bugner would beat him too b/c Sanders always faded badly late in fights (not just in bad shape vs Vitali but in better shape vs Rahman) Bugner would lose the early rounds, survive (the guy had a granite jaw) and knock out an exhausted Sanders late.

As for Klitschko, I would have to favor Vitali outworking Bugner over the distance. I think Joe would best his baby brother though.

[Seamus]

Vitali Klitschko getting a little respect on BoxRec ? This could throw the whole universe out of kilter.

[wouter]

As for Klitschko, I would have to favor Vitali outworking Bugner over the distance. I think Joe would best his baby brother though.

Klitschko never seemed the outworking-type-of-fighter to me. He's just a big guy, standing on the outside and potshotting you.

[dempseyfire]

As for Klitschko, I would have to favor Vitali outworking Bugner over the distance. I think Joe would best his baby brother though.

Klitschko never seemed the outworking-type-of-fighter to me. He's just a big guy, standing on the outside and potshotting you.

Vitali can keep up a pretty good work-rate for a big man, much better than his brother (who since Brewster I fights at the pace of a snail on Xanax). He does show fatigue by the 6-8th rounds but he keeps the punches coming. Bugner also usually did NOT put in much work, with a few exceptions. He would jab, land a combo here or there . . and then pose the rest of the round and play defense. I think its certainly a competitive fight, but I don't see Bugner coming forward enough into the danger zone to win on points.

If the fight is over 15, Bugner's superior stamina can become a factor and I think Joe's chances greatly increase there.

[overhand_right]

I understand your point, because Vitali Klitschko would also lose to Joe Frazier, Muhammad Ali, Ron Lyle et al and generally find the 70s talent pool too deep.

If you look at Vitali's name victims, the only guy who was physically fit was the ultra-vulnerable Herbie Hide, the rest are either old (Sanders, Donald, Norris, Bean), fat (Williams, Johnson, Peter, Mahone), or both (Sanders, Donald, Bean).

Yet of this list of scalps many rate Klitschko above so many great names of the past, but the truth is we don't even know if he could handle Joe Bugner, as Bugner has qualities Klitschko has never beaten: young, skilled, powerful, very big, iron chin.

The safer pick is Bugner. Plus Bugner didn't cut.

[hhaehre]

I understand your point, because Vitali Klitschko would also lose to Joe Frazier, Muhammad Ali, Ron Lyle et al and generally find the 70s talent pool too deep.

If you look at Vitali's name victims, the only guy who was physically fit was the ultra-vulnerable Herbie Hide, the rest are either old (Sanders, Donald, Norris, Bean), fat (Williams, Johnson, Peter, Mahone), or both (Sanders, Donald, Bean).

Yet of this list of scalps many rate Klitschko above so many great names of the past, but the truth is we don't even know if he could handle Joe Bugner, as Bugner has qualities Klitschko has never beaten: young, skilled, powerful, very big, iron chin.

The safer pick is Bugner. Plus Bugner didn't cut.

On the other hand who did Bugner ever beat that was so great ? Old man Cooper, a washed up Ellis, a slew of journeymen ? He also managed to loose to 'greats' like Bodell, Middleton, Marvis Frazier and Tangstad. Bugner was no better than Larry Donald, in fact I would give Donald the edge over Bugner. Granted Vitali would loose to the top guys of the 70's but so did Bugner, in fact he lost every time he stepped into the ring with a top echelon fighter.

[hhaehre]

On the other hand who did Bugner ever beat that was so great ? Old man Cooper, a washed up Ellis, a slew of journeymen ? He also managed to loose to 'greats' like Bodell, Middleton, Marvis Frazier and Tangstad. Bugner was no better than Larry Donald, in fact I would give Donald the edge over Bugner. Granted Vitali would loose to the top guys of the 70's but so did Bugner, in fact he lost every time he stepped into the ring with a top echelon fighter.

Harsh. Bugner was a lot better than Larry Donald. He turned pro very early and was inactive for most of what should have been his peak years. Whilst Bugner did come up short against the top fighters of the 70s he did nevertheless have some good wins. As a youngster he beat Jack O'Hallaran, Ray Patterson, Brian London, Jimmy Ellis and Henry Cooper. Bugner was British and European Champion at 21 and went the distance with Ali at 22. He retired for the first time at 25 but made multiple comebacks until he was in his late '40s. Even as a veteran he beat some good fighters - for example, in his late 30s Bugner beat Quick Tillis and Greg Page when both were much younger than him.

Do I see Bugner beating Vitali? No. But he would probably go the distance though and give him plenty of trouble in short bursts. Bugner had quick hands and good skill for a big man. He just lacked the desire to transfer his potential to the top level.

A little harsh maybe, Bugner was a hard bastard with a pretty good career during the toughest era in hw history but just because he fought alongside Ali, Frazier and Foreman does not mean he would be champion today. He was not campionship caliber then and I doubt very much that he would be today.

[The Great John L]

On the other hand who did Bugner ever beat that was so great ? Old man Cooper, a washed up Ellis, a slew of journeymen ? He also managed to loose to 'greats' like Bodell, Middleton, Marvis Frazier and Tangstad. Bugner was no better than Larry Donald, in fact I would give Donald the edge over Bugner. Granted Vitali would loose to the top guys of the 70's but so did Bugner, in fact he lost every time he stepped into the ring with a top echelon fighter.

Harsh. Bugner was a lot better than Larry Donald. He turned pro very early and was inactive for most of what should have been his peak years. Whilst Bugner did come up short against the top fighters of the 70s he did nevertheless have some good wins. As a youngster he beat Jack O'Hallaran, Ray Patterson, Brian London, Jimmy Ellis and Henry Cooper. Bugner was British and European Champion at 21 and went the distance with Ali at 22. He retired for the first time at 25 but made multiple comebacks until he was in his late '40s. Even as a veteran he beat some good fighters - for example, in his late 30s Bugner beat Quick Tillis and Greg Page when both were much younger than him.

Do I see Bugner beating Vitali? No. But he would probably go the distance though and give him plenty of trouble in short bursts. Bugner had quick hands and good skill for a big man. He just lacked the desire to transfer his potential to the top level.

A little harsh maybe, Bugner was a hard bastard with a pretty good career during the toughest era in hw history but just because he fought alongside Ali, Frazier and Foreman does not mean he would be champion today. He was not campionship caliber then and I doubt very much that he would be today.

The earlier poster said that he thought Bugner wouldn't have beaten Vitali. If you are saying that Bugner would not have been able to win one of the alphabet "titles" around today, then I think your opinion is probably not shared by many.

[Collins2000]

I understand your point, because Vitali Klitschko would also lose to Joe Frazier, Muhammad Ali, Ron Lyle et al and generally find the 70s talent pool too deep.

If you look at Vitali's name victims, the only guy who was physically fit was the ultra-vulnerable Herbie Hide, the rest are either old (Sanders, Donald, Norris, Bean), fat (Williams, Johnson, Peter, Mahone), or both (Sanders, Donald, Bean).

Yet of this list of scalps many rate Klitschko above so many great names of the past, but the truth is we don't even know if he could handle Joe Bugner, as Bugner has qualities Klitschko has never beaten: young, skilled, powerful, very big, iron chin.

The safer pick is Bugner. Plus Bugner didn't cut.

He was cut when fighting Shavers and also Winston Allen.

[hhaehre]

The earlier poster said that he thought Bugner wouldn't have beaten Vitali. If you are saying that Bugner would not have been able to win one of the alphabet "titles" around today, then I think your opinion is probably not shared by many.

Maybe he could have won a soup title had he fought today but I would'nt bet the farm. Bugner, much like Larry Donald and Kirk Johnson represent the type of fighter that frustrates the hell out of me. You just want to scream "get going for $%&£ sake" I have come to the conclusion that these gouys just don't have it in them to "get going". It may occationally look like they have the goods to go all the way but they just don't. You don't see champions lose to a determined B-level plodder like Steffen Tangstad.

[dempseyfire]

I see your point of frustration with Bugner, but come on, do Donald or Johnson go 12 with Frazier or last the distance vs Ali, Lyle (a decent scrap) etc.? Johnson couldn't last the distance vs Ruiz without fouling out in frustration . . .

Frikkin' Sam Peter wins a belt, Rahman and Ruiz win multiple belts . . .Bugner right now would at least have two. He'd have easily outboxed Peter and Valuev.

[Collins2000]

He was cut when fighting Shavers and also Winston Allen.

Considering he was so fair-skinned, Bugner had a good resistance to cuts; in both the instances above the cuts were caused by head butts. However, I do remember that that Bugner was also cut - quite badly - in his first fight with Ali.

Overhand Right said, without any qualification, in his usual know it all way, that Bugner did not cut.

He was cut against Shavers and he was cut against Allen. The cut in the Allen fight was from a blatant butt. The Shavers one may have been a head clash. I'm not convinced.

And yes he was cut against Ali.

I'm not sure pigmenation has anything to do with whether a fighter is prone to cuts.

[The Great John L]

The earlier poster said that he thought Bugner wouldn't have beaten Vitali. If you are saying that Bugner would not have been able to win one of the alphabet "titles" around today, then I think your opinion is probably not shared by many.

Maybe he could have won a soup title had he fought today but I would'nt bet the farm. Bugner, much like Larry Donald and Kirk Johnson represent the type of fighter that frustrates the hell out of me. You just want to scream "get going for $%&£ sake" I have come to the conclusion that these gouys just don't have it in them to "get going". It may occationally look like they have the goods to go all the way but they just don't. You don't see champions lose to a determined B-level plodder like Steffen Tangstad.

Ross Purritty anyone? Not to mention Lamon Brewster who's only slightly better than Purritty. I guess I won't touch the over-hyped Sanders, who seesm to have a few worshippers prowling around.

[SteveO]

Yes, mercman 'Aussie' Joe won the WBF 'world' heavyweight title with a TKO1 over James 'Bonecrusher' Smith :-)

[Seamus]

No excuses for the Sanders loss, but the Puritty fight was just a poor fight plan. Sure it looks bad, but all Wlad needed to do was back off, box and take a wide decision. The Brewster loss is incomprehensible. Wlad beat him pillar to post, and then out of the blue he's suddenly breathing like an old man who tried to run up a long flight of stairs.

[hhaehre]

I see your point of frustration with Bugner, but come on, do Donald or Johnson go 12 with Frazier or last the distance vs Ali, Lyle (a decent scrap) etc.? Johnson couldn't last the distance vs Ruiz without fouling out in frustration . . .

Frikkin' Sam Peter wins a belt, Rahman and Ruiz win multiple belts . . .Bugner right now would at least have two. He'd have easily outboxed Peter and Valuev.

Bugner was much tougher than Johnson but Donald is pretty resilient. I think Donald would have gone the distance with '75 Ali and while I think both Lyle and Frazier stops him he would probably have lasted past the halfway point against both. Anyway my point was not to claim that Johnson or Donald could have fought Frazier close but that they seemd to have more potential than they realized in the ring.

Bugner would beat Peter and Rahman, two of the worst champions ever but Ruiz is just the kind of guy that would outhustle Bugner for a decision. Bugner never liked southpaws either.

[hhaehre]

You don't see champions lose to a determined B-level plodder like Steffen Tangstad.

Bugner did lose to some pretty limied fighters in his time. This was basically because he tended to be cautious and a bit lazy but the Tangstad fight is not a very good example of this. It is generally agreed that Bugner was robbed in this one and was the victim of a 'home town' decision. It wasn't a good performance but Bugner did enough to get the decision against Tangstad. In fact, I seem to remember that Bugner was so cheesed off with the result that he announced he was quitting the game afterwards (mind you, it didn't take much to encourage Bugner to do that. He never really wanted to be a fighter anyway). The worst Bugner fight I can recall was against Marvis Frazier - a fight he should have won fairly easily but he just let himself get hustled out of it.

I think the Tangstad fight is an excellent example. Sure you could argue that Bugner deserved the nod but the fight was close imo and Tangstad is a guy Bugner had all the tools to beat very convincingly and probably stop. You are of course right about the Marvis Frazier fight, it was even worse than the Tangstad fight.

[The Great John L]

No excuses for the Sanders loss, but the Puritty fight was just a poor fight plan. Sure it looks bad, but all Wlad needed to do was back off, box and take a wide decision. The Brewster loss is incomprehensible. Wlad beat him pillar to post, and then out of the blue he's suddenly breathing like an old man who tried to run up a long flight of stairs.

Excuses can be made for just about any loss, but the fact remains that Wlad lost to a club fighter; a guy not even as good as Tangstad. Brewster might has been better than Tangstad, but it would have been an interesting fight.

Dempsey lost to Meehan and was KO'd by way past it Flynn, while Liston lost to LHW Marshall. Of course Bugner lost some fights he shouldn't have. So do many other very good and even great fighters. Of course I still think he would have to lost to Vitali, but hhaehre's comment just didn't make any sense.