Clay / Jones Jnr Comparisons.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 May 2004, 17:51

I can't believe some of the stuff I am hearing on general forums throughout the net. All of this talk of Jones has got a china chin remark.

What does everybody think.

Personally, I think it is hard to judge whether Jones has got a China chin based on this fight. It was a damn nice punch that caught Jones somewhat suprised and flush.

I personally think that Jones held no fear of Tarver having beaten him when clearly not 100% last time, he must have be brimming with confidence because he looked a lot healthier and was apparently looking his usual self in the opening three minutes.

As people have said quite rightly it is the surprise element that KO's most fighters. Lewis was dubbed china chinned for years after his shocking losses to McCall and Rahman, McCall and Rahman are respectable punchers but nothing like Tyson and Klitchko, who Lewis took clean shots off without flinching. Is he China Chinned now?

Corrie Sanders is another who has gone down to lesser punchers but stayed upright throughout his contest with Klitchko. Is he China Chinned now?

We have all moaned at the effort that Ruiz placed against Jones, but have also all seem the pictures of Jones getting caught flush by him (the ones where Jones is spitting everywhere). Now, Ruiz is no big puncher, but surely he hits as hard as Tarver, he has KO'd some fairly steardy heavyweights (Oquendo) and even put Holyfield down.

Why didn't the "china chinned" Jones capsise against Ruiz? Because he was prepared mentally to take a potentially KO blow that is why.

What I saw reminded very much like Clay vs Cooper all of those years ago. Clay didn't respect Cooper, he didn't think he could knock him out. But Cooper caught him and Clay went down. In this day an age looking at Clay's eyes Jay Nady might have waved that on off regardless of the minute break. I'm sure there can be little doubt that if that shot landed on Clay with a minute gone, Clay would have lost - he might not needed to have taken another shot (it could have been waved off). Is Clay/Ali chinny?

This stuff happens, unfortunately for Roy it has happend at the wrong time in his career, but I'm convinced it was the fact that he was so confident Tarver couldn't hurt him that was the reason he wasn't prepared to take such a shot.

Any thoughts?

ArtOfWar · Post by **ArtOfWar** » 16 May 2004, 18:13

I wouldn't say RJJ was china chinned, but his chin is not that good either. Guys who don't like getting hit that much, normally haven't got good chins. I mean all fighter's work on their defense, but fighters like RJJ, Mayweather etc REALLY don't like getting hit. Imo this has a lot to do with them not being confident in their own chins.

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 16 May 2004, 18:14

personally I think it's more to do with them being arrogant little fuckers and not wanting to be hit in the face becaue it might mess up their "looks"

neil r · Post by **neil r** » 16 May 2004, 18:33

BOLLOCKS19842003 wrote:Guys who don't like getting hit that much, normally haven't got good chins.

perceptive!

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 16 May 2004, 18:58

You don't spend 15 years at the top while only getting knocked down once without having a very good chin. Jones didn't get hit as much as other fighters but he still got hit in his 15 years at the top. I mean this was the first ive ever seen him hurt or in trouble which I think is remarkable, its taken 15 years to happen. He got caught with a perfect punch right on the chin while throwing a punch of his own, he fell and hit his head on the canvas and still got up, thats not a bad chin and fornicate those who say it is. Lewis's so called bad chin was massively exaggerated, he got KO'ed from monster shots.

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 16 May 2004, 19:08

it doesnt make him glass chinned a la errol christie but it does bring up questions about how well he takes a shot, i`ve only seen the finale and the punch wasn`t exactly a julian jackson special.
you may have a point about the surprise element but when the dust and smoke has cleared he got knocked out.
robinson never.
if roy would have beaten benn,collins,ottke,calzaghe,darius m and hopkins/toney again i`d class him as a all time great. (a feat well within his powers)
all time greats dont leave a minefield of unanswered questions behind them imo.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 May 2004, 19:20

headhunter wrote: if roy would have beaten benn,collins,ottke,calzaghe,darius m and hopkins/toney again i`d class him as a all time great.

Why Hopkins and Toney again, they were pretty decisive wins - why not say Ruiz again. Just like Toney and Hopkins', Ruiz' standing has improved since Roy embarresed him - so why Toney and Hopkins, because they have asked for it? To become an all time great you need to challenge yourself, what challenge is it for beating up on someone you've already beaten up.

Would you be happy if Calzaghe defended his WBO title against Mario Veit after Johnson, this is a similar scenerio but at an entirely higher level.

Benn, Collins, Ottke, Calzaghe and Dariuz were all practically impossible to make, mainly to due the demands of the opponent.

Roy beat the universally recognised #1 Middleweight, the universially recognised #1 Super Middleweight and got the WBA, WBC and IBF Light Heavyweight belts. He also beat the now ranked #2 Heavyweight.

Yes it would have been great to have seen RJJ vs all of those athletes (and I'd place Eubank in that list), however the figures they demanded to step into the ring (Collins - the man who claimed RJJ ducked him - demanded 7 million!) just really shows how good he is.

Now, I'm not saying Roy is perfectly innocent in the negotiations, however the fact it is so much harder to make a fight in this day compared to that of Sugar Ray Robinson. Even if matches are made there is more scrutiny involved. For example, DLH beat to guys ranked in the top ten P4P in the world (and champions) when he defeated Chavez and Whittikar - yet I have even heard criticism that he is not a true fighting man, more a buisenessman and a fraud. This is based on the view that Chavez and Whittikar were past their sell by dates. Yes they were, but they were still the #1 fighters in the devision, DLH can't help he is about 10 years younger.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 17 May 2004, 05:51

BOLLOCKS19842003 wrote:I wouldn't say RJJ was china chinned, but his chin is not that good either. Guys who don't like getting hit that much, normally haven't got good chins. I mean all fighter's work on their defense, but fighters like RJJ, Mayweather etc REALLY don't like getting hit. Imo this has a lot to do with them not being confident in their own chins.

No fighter likes getting hit.

Tarver caught him with a good shot, thats it. It happens.

Jones has been virtually unbeaten for 15 years and has beaten all of the top boys in three divisions.

Get off his back. Hes still an all time great.

Nothing can change that.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 May 2004, 06:32

Yeah, he just didn't see the shot coming until it was too late, and his lack of lateral movement meant he was there to be hit.

It is very noticable how flat footed Roy has become of late, the handspeed is still there, but the movement and ring generalship has all but gone, and that makes him far easier to hit than he used to be.

Roy has slowed a step or two, and doesn't look as comfortable at light heavy as he used to. Tarver is a huge light heavyweight, and has fast hands, Jones never saw the shot coming.

You don't have to have your entire body weight thrown into a shot to hurt someone, the fact that he caught Jones when he was unsighted is what did the damage, and the way he landed on his noggin didn't help.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 17 May 2004, 06:57

Just the usual bollocks you always find on those looney bin general forums.
You don't stay at the top beating guys like Toney and Hopkins, not to mention getting hit by a heavyweight ( who knocked down Holyfield ) with a glass jaw. Absolute crap.
Jones just stayed on a little too long at lightheavy, and the weight strain wouldn't have helped his legs too much either.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 17 May 2004, 08:20

Jones' efforts to beat the count left Nady no choice but to stop it. He was getting up okay, but then half fell down again, before eventually beating the count on wobbly legs. He got up in pieces.
Jones got caught with a great shot, that's all. It's wrong to label him 'chinny'.
One thing that should be mentioned: he'll never make anyone's top 10 greatest fighters now.