What happens if there was Jack Johnson vs. Harry Wills

[kovit]

I like to decide to make a dream match up which never happens. Jack Johnson the first black World Heavyweight Champion from 1908-1915 who was the best defensive fighter of all time, who was also the most hated man. Harry Wills was the man who fought during Johnson's reign as Heavyweight Champion, never fought him. I would like to know why they never tangle each other? If they have fought the series during their times, who would win out of their series? Will the 6'1 1/4" Jack Johnson's sciencitific boxing skills beat Harry Wills, or the the 6'4" Harry Wills' height, weight, reach, and strong body punching defeat Johnson?

[wouter]

Harry Wills hit his prime during the Jack Dempsey era, not the Jack Johnson era. Wills was good enough for Dempsey to avoid him. What would have happened if Johnson and Wills fought.... I wouldn't know, I've never seen Wills in action.

[kovit]

Harry Wills fought Sam Langford during Jack Johnson's reign which Johnson was about to be defeated by Jess Willard. Johnson and Wills have the common things: they each fought Joe Jeannette, Sam McVey, and Sam Langford, but they never fought each other for Johnson and Wills. What happens if Johnson and Wills going at it, before Wills ever wish to fight Dempsey for his title?

[tonyevs]

If Johnson was still holding the title when Wills was the top contender he still would not have let him fight for the title, because Johnson refused to defend against a fellow black opponent.

[kovit]

If Johnson agrees to fight Wills back then, who would win the fight?

[tonyevs]

Depending at what times in their careers.
Langford Ko`ed Wills, as did Uzcudun.
Though these were at opposite ends of his fighting days, when Wills was at his best I think he would have beaten a peak Johnson.

[dempseyfire]

Harry Willis is a guy shoruded in myth and falsities. Dempsey was willing to fight Willis, but his manager (Rickard) didn't permit it b/c the financial windfall that wouldv'e occured if Willis had become champion was pretty large. Some Dempsey apologists (he's one of my fav. fighters but I'm no fanatic) dismiss Willis as slow (not true) and lacking in skill (also not true) and say it would be another Williard massacre.
The truth is, we'll never know, or be close to knowing if Willis could've beaten Dempsey, but going by the historical accounts and his record one can assume a prime Willis was a tough match for anybody. He was only Ko'd by two people, the great Sam Langford very early in his career (which he avenged several times over) and at a shot 38 yrs old against future contender Paulino Uzcudun. His record is highly impressive, with wins over white contenders Weinert, Firpo and Fulton (he and Dempsey were the only boxers to ever beat Fulton in his prime) and elite black HWs JL Johnson, Jeff Clark, Sam Mcvey, Langford, and Jack Thompson, along with washed up versions of Denver Ed Martin and Gunboat Smith. He was known to have a devastating one-two, an excellent defense, and took a good punch (the TKO loss to Jim Johnson was a corner retirement due to a broken hand).
BUT, to say he beats a prime Johnson is a stretch. Johnson had anything you'd want in a prizefighter-speed, power, stamina, impeccable defense, coolness under fire, and (contrary to myth) a very good chin. I say Johnson loses the first 5 rds before turning up the heat and wins a 20 rd decision, or by late stoppage.

[wouter]

If Johnson was still holding the title when Wills was the top contender he still would not have let him fight for the title, because Johnson refused to defend against a fellow black opponent.

Battling Jim Johnson was black

[tonyevs]

Doh!!!!

[kovit]

Hey I wonder why Jack Johnson fought Battling Jim Johnson for the Galveston Giant's title in 1913 after Jack doesn't want to fight any black fighters of his day, it is because Jeannette, McVey, Langford, and Wills were stronger than Jim Johnson?

[tonyevs]

I have a book where it says he was quoted as saying to an interviewer in 1913 “I won’t box any of those coloured boys now, I have had a hard time to get a chance, I gave Langford, Jeanette and those boys a chance before I was champ. I’ll retire still the only coloured heavyweight champion.”
I would take it he said this before December when he fought Jim Johnson….. if it is true at all.
Incidentally looking through his record (after being humbled by Wouter) I see that he had beaten Sam Langford, Jeanette and McVea all prior to winning the title, only Marvin Hart had bettered him out of the more well known coloured contenders.

[dempseyfire]

only Marvin Hart had bettered him out of the more well known coloured contenders.

and the decision in that bout was a reconized robbery.

[wouter]

only Marvin Hart had bettered him out of the more well known coloured contenders.

and the decision in that bout was a reconized robbery.

That's become popular belief, Jack Johnson himself years later admitted that Hart "whipped him good." Hart was very much white by the way, how else could Johnson have been the first colored champion?

[dempseyfire]

only Marvin Hart had bettered him out of the more well known coloured contenders.

and the decision in that bout was a reconized robbery.

That's become popular belief, Jack Johnson himself years later admitted that Hart "whipped him good." Hart was very much white by the way, how else could Johnson have been the first colored champion?

Jack Johnson said Marvin Hart whipped him good?? Where did you read that? No way Jack Johnson ever said anything of the sort. If you read the ringside accounts most agreed that Johnson controlled the action and landed the better blows (Hart's face was a mess complete with a broken nose, while Johnson didn't have a scratch) but Hart was the aggressor the whole way. I envision it kinda like the Gomez-Sam fight last yr, cept Johnson wasn't as busy.

[kovit]

Hey I would like to know how long are Harry Wills' arms in reach? I know that Wills standing at 6'4", but they never show his reach on the records since he was never was a champion. They mostly show a lot of Heavyweight Champions all the tale of the tape, but what about the contender who never show the record of their reach like Joe Jeannette, Sam McVey, Sam Langford, and Harry Wills. How long is Harry Wills' arms in reach, please?

[wouter]

Jack Johnson said Marvin Hart whipped him good?? Where did you read that? No way Jack Johnson ever said anything of the sort. .

I'll have to look it up, it's in a book or magazine I've got.

[wouter]

Here it is, it's from a Dec. 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hart" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an auspicious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart."

[Cojimar 1945]

Reports suggest that Johnson deserved the decision vs Hart.

[klompton]

The New York Daily News reported before his fights with Bill Tate and Kid Norfolk that Will's reach was 74 and 1/2 inches.

[BoxBuzz]

Reports suggest that Johnson deserved the decision vs Hart.

Not sure I've read a credible report that says otherwise....Is anyone of aware of one that has real crediblity that makes the case for Hart? I've always assumed this was true and pretty much taken it on faith.

[klompton]

reports were split as to who deserved the decision. It was close.

[pound per pound]

and the decision in that bout was a reconized robbery.

That's become popular belief, Jack Johnson himself years later admitted that Hart "whipped him good." Hart was very much white by the way, how else could Johnson have been the first colored champion?

Jack Johnson said Marvin Hart whipped him good?? Where did you read that? No way Jack Johnson ever said anything of the sort. If you read the ringside accounts most agreed that Johnson controlled the action and landed the better blows (Hart's face was a mess complete with a broken nose, while Johnson didn't have a scratch) but Hart was the aggressor the whole way. I envision it kinda like the Gomez-Sam fight last yr, cept Johnson wasn't as busy.

Hart landed a hard body shot somewhere between rounds 10-12. They blow doubled Johnson over and nearly knocked Johnson down. From here on in, Johnson was passive, while Hart was aggressive. Modern fight fans scoff at fighters costing in the last round. Johnson coasted nearly 10 rounds. Making the fight in those days was something the winner was expected to do. So Hart was awarded the fight by the referee. The stakes of the match were high, as there was talk about the winner facing James J Jeffries.

Who won the fight has become a sticky topic amongst Johnson fans.

However two key testimonials on the fight must be taken into consideration.

Nat Fleisher editor and founder of Ring Magazine wrote, Johnson faded badly down the stretch. Fleisher and Johnson were fond of each other. The two shared a relationship that was similar to what Cosell and Ali had. However Nat valued the integrity of boxing over a working friendship.

Johnson admitted he was bested by Hart in his auto biography.

So there you have it.

[pundit]

As others have pointed out Wills didn't step on to the scene as a class fighterand potential challenger before 1914, by which Johnson was on a downards path. Had they fought in 1914/15 Wills would probably have won.

However, at the time the main ignored (black) contender was still Sam Langford. Langford passed on the torch as the best heavyweight in the world to Wills in about 1916.