Classic American West Coast Boxing

[dagosd2000]

Randy
I was flying by the seat of my pants on the number of fights. I do remember him making that statement,just got the number wrong.

Food for thought. Think of all the Latino,or Latin fighters who were gentlemen outside the ring. From my ancestry,Rocky Marciano and Carmen Basilio. Your bloodline,Ruben Olivares and Gato Gonzalez.

[Expug]

Randy
I was flying by the seat of my pants on the number of fights. I do remember him making that statement,just got the number wrong.

Food for thought. Think of all the Latino,or Latin fighters who were gentlemen outside the ring. From my ancestry,Rocky Marciano and Carmen Basilio. Your bloodline,Ruben Olivares and Gato Gonzalez.

Yeah, think of the gentlemen Irish fighters too. DD
Guys like......ah,....".Irish" Bob Murphy and Denny Moyer!

Lew Jenkins, Mickey Walker, John L Sullivan, Choir Boys , all of em.

[Randyman]

Randy
I was flying by the seat of my pants on the number of fights. I do remember him making that statement,just got the number wrong.

Food for thought. Think of all the Latino,or Latin fighters who were gentlemen outside the ring. From my ancestry,Rocky Marciano and Carmen Basilio. Your bloodline,Ruben Olivares and Gato Gonzalez.

Duran was no gentleman? Lol Let's not forget one of the great ring gentlemen of all time, Nicaraguan Alexis Arguello. A class act.

I read once, years ago, that Al Weill, in the heat of an argument with Rocky Marciano, slapped Rocky across the face. Rocky turned different shades of red and purple, but never lifted a finger against Weill. He turned and walked out of the room. That's self control. That's a gentlemen.

Randy

[Randyman]

Randy
I was flying by the seat of my pants on the number of fights. I do remember him making that statement,just got the number wrong.

Food for thought. Think of all the Latino,or Latin fighters who were gentlemen outside the ring. From my ancestry,Rocky Marciano and Carmen Basilio. Your bloodline,Ruben Olivares and Gato Gonzalez.

Yeah, think of the gentlemen Irish fighters too. DD
Guys like......ah,....".Irish" Bob Murphy and Denny Moyer!

Lew Jenkins, Mickey Walker, John L Sullivan, Choir Boys , all of em.

The Irish fighters, what a bunch of lovable sweethearts. Nice fellas!
Speaking of "Irish" Bob Murphy, go here to see highlights of his 1952 fight with everyone's favorite sweetheart, Jake LaMotta. http://www.truveo.com/id/2897765047

[raylawpc]

I took the day off from work today. I'm glad I did. Jeri made a pot roast today. With new potatoes, celery, carrots, onion, a few bay leaves, salt and pepper and little else. Too much seasoning ruins a pot roast. I want the flavor of the beef and vegetables to come through. We had an early dinner.

After we ate we drove up to Rose Hill Cemetery to visit our grandson Nathan. It's always difficult but when my wife wants to go, I never tell her no. She cleaned the headstone and cleared away the over growth of grass. It's like a healing ritual for her. It always leaves me feeling a little blue when we leave.

Nathan is my daughter Meranda's son. He passed away in 2001. I don't think any of us will ever really get over it. Meranda handles it well but she has her days. My wife has her days too. Today was one of them. It will never seem fair. We understand when our parents die. It hurts but we understand that it is part of the cycle of life....and death. We don't understand it when one of our kids dies.

Randy, I am truly sorry to hear about your grandson. I will say a prayer tonight for you, Jeri and Meranda. May God bless you and comfort you in your loss.

[dagosd2000]

Randy
I was flying by the seat of my pants on the number of fights. I do remember him making that statement,just got the number wrong.

Food for thought. Think of all the Latino,or Latin fighters who were gentlemen outside the ring. From my ancestry,Rocky Marciano and Carmen Basilio. Your bloodline,Ruben Olivares and Gato Gonzalez.

Yeah, think of the gentlemen Irish fighters too. DD
Guys like......ah,....".Irish" Bob Murphy and Denny Moyer!

Lew Jenkins, Mickey Walker, John L Sullivan, Choir Boys , all of em.

Two nice Irishmen:Jimmy Braddock and Billy Conn.

[Randyman]

I took the day off from work today. I'm glad I did. Jeri made a pot roast today. With new potatoes, celery, carrots, onion, a few bay leaves, salt and pepper and little else. Too much seasoning ruins a pot roast. I want the flavor of the beef and vegetables to come through. We had an early dinner.

After we ate we drove up to Rose Hill Cemetery to visit our grandson Nathan. It's always difficult but when my wife wants to go, I never tell her no. She cleaned the headstone and cleared away the over growth of grass. It's like a healing ritual for her. It always leaves me feeling a little blue when we leave.

Nathan is my daughter Meranda's son. He passed away in 2001. I don't think any of us will ever really get over it. Meranda handles it well but she has her days. My wife has her days too. Today was one of them. It will never seem fair. We understand when our parents die. It hurts but we understand that it is part of the cycle of life....and death. We don't understand it when one of our kids dies.

Randy, I am truly sorry to hear about your grandson. I will say a prayer tonight for you, Jeri and Meranda. May God bless you and comfort you in your loss.

Thanks Tom, I appreciate that. The wounds get re-opened every time we go there. But it's really always there.

[dagosd2000]

Pug
I knew Denny Moyer and Ronnie Wilson when they were in San Diego.Two Irishmen. They were really nice guys outside the ring. Almost shy to a point. The problem was they'd start drinking and they turned into Mr. Hyde. The old boys at the Arizona Cafe said the same things about Murphy. A modest chap sober,but give him a bottle of Rye and you had to hide the women and children.

[raylawpc]

I agree with you both!

Randy: "I will always believe that Duran, at his best, was the better man, the better fighter. As the saying goes when "Duran was Duran". Duran is my kind of guy, my kind of fighter."

Roger: "Sugar Ray Robinson may have been the 'Greatest' . . ."

[dagosd2000]

I took the day off from work today. I'm glad I did. Jeri made a pot roast today. With new potatoes, celery, carrots, onion, a few bay leaves, salt and pepper and little else. Too much seasoning ruins a pot roast. I want the flavor of the beef and vegetables to come through. We had an early dinner.

After we ate we drove up to Rose Hill Cemetery to visit our grandson Nathan. It's always difficult but when my wife wants to go, I never tell her no. She cleaned the headstone and cleared away the over growth of grass. It's like a healing ritual for her. It always leaves me feeling a little blue when we leave.

Nathan is my daughter Meranda's son. He passed away in 2001. I don't think any of us will ever really get over it. Meranda handles it well but she has her days. My wife has her days too. Today was one of them. It will never seem fair. We understand when our parents die. It hurts but we understand that it is part of the cycle of life....and death. We don't understand it when one of our kids dies.

Randy, I am truly sorry to hear about your grandson. I will say a prayer tonight for you, Jeri and Meranda. May God bless you and comfort you in your loss.

Thanks Tom, I appreciate that. The wounds get re-opened every time we go there. But it's really always there.

Randy
Sometimes I think my life is held together by a thread. The loss of a child or grandchild tests one's faith to the fullest.

[dagosd2000]

I agree with you both!

Randy: "I will always believe that Duran, at his best, was the better man, the better fighter. As the saying goes when "Duran was Duran". Duran is my kind of guy, my kind of fighter."

Roger: "Sugar Ray Robinson may have been the 'Greatest' . . ."

Tom
My point was on character. Duran was,in my opinion,the greatest lightweight. Leonard as a welter,well,he wasn't better than the other Sugar Ray.

[raylawpc]

I agree with you both!

Randy: "I will always believe that Duran, at his best, was the better man, the better fighter. As the saying goes when "Duran was Duran". Duran is my kind of guy, my kind of fighter."

Roger: "Sugar Ray Robinson may have been the 'Greatest' . . ."

Tom
My point was on character. Duran was,in my opinion,the greatest lightweight. Leonard as a welter,well,he wasn't better than the other Sugar Ray.

Well, Roger, I'm more with Randy on Leonard and the character issue. But I will say that Leonard was a character!

[Randyman]

Randy
Sometimes I think my life is held together by a thread. The loss of a child or grandchild tests one's faith to the fullest.

True Tom, a very thin thread. I am a man of faith, though admittedly, I am a work in progress. I hang onto my faith but I'll tell ya, it's a challenge at times. A very thin thread.

Randy

[Randyman]

Good night guys, My granddaughter is waiting to use the computer. I'll be hitting the hay soon anyways. Good night Frank!! Get well.

Randy

[dagosd2000]

Randy
Sometimes I think my life is held together by a thread. The loss of a child or grandchild tests one's faith to the fullest.

True Tom, a very thin thread. I am a man of faith, though admittedly, I am a work in progress. I hang onto my faith but I'll tell ya, it's a challenge at times. A very thin thread.

Randy

Randy
Did you ever read Mother Teresa's memoirs on her faith? She struggled with it all her life. I think that's the only way to work with it. You question why terrible things happen and you battle with the rational behind it. It's too comprehensive for me to understand,but I have to go with it anyway.

[raylawpc]

Regarding Sugar Ray Robinson, Nat Fleischer wrote in the July 1950 edition of Ring:

Is Sugar Ray Robinson the greatest boxer of the last half-century?

Although a recent poll designated Jack Dempsey as the man, with Joe Louis as runner-up, a surprisingly large number of fistic experts, old and new, can’t see anybody but Robinson as the best all-around fighter of the past 50 years.

They have some good, sound, logical arguments to back up their opinions. Let’s lend an ear to the genteel and dignified Mr. Jimmy Bronson, for example. Active as a manager and promoter since the turn of the century, Mr. Bronson certainly qualifies as a genuine authority on things pugilistic, and here’s what he says:

“I don’t see how you can fail to name Ray Robinson the best fighter of the past 50 years, for the simple reason that he can do anything any other boxer could ever do and maybe just a little bit better. Pound-for-pound, I can’t recall a harder hitter. On the other hand, I have never seen anybody who is harder to nail with a good punch. Great hitter, great boxer—what more can one ask?” explained Mr. Bronson.

“I’ve seen them all since (Joe) Gans,” chimed in veteran publicist Francis Albertanti, “but I can’t rate anyone over Sugar Ray. Those four wins over LaMotta sold me—a welterweight licking a good tough middleweight! And what a fighter he is when the chips are down!”

Support for Robinson comes from an unexpected source in the person of the oldest living former world’s champion—Frank Erne. Erne, sprightly, clear-eyed and mentally alert at the age of 75, unhesitatingly ranks Sugar Ray with the greatest of his day.

“This boy is a natural. He does everything just as well as any fighter I have ever seen,” is Frank Erne’s tribute to the current welterweight champion.

As might be expected, the younger generation of boxing observers can’t see anyone but Robinson as top man in the pugilistic parade. The case for Sugar Ray is best expressed here by Harry Markson, mastermind of the International Boxing Club, which stages bouts in Madison Square Garden. Harry, who is still on the youthful side, doesn’t place himself in the same category with long-timers like Bronson, Albertanti or Erne, but reasons it this way:

“With all due respect to all the good fighters who were before my time, I can’t conceive of a better fighter than Ray Robinson, and here’s why: If you take all the requisites necessary for a great boxer, you find that Ray Robinson not only possesses them all, but does everything to perfection. Everybody agrees on that. So, to be better than Ray Robinson you have to improve on perfection. I ask you—is that possible?”

Most of the old-timers in the fight business agree that only Benny Leonard and Gans rate with the Harlem Hotshot in both the skill and punch departments.

Veteran scribe Ed Van Every, while recognizing Robinson’s greatness is still loath to rate him above Benny Leonard. Van Every looks at it this way:

“For all-around ability the two were about the same. In my opinion, if there is an edge, I would give it to Leonard because he was such an outstanding repeat performer.

“Take the two Tendler fights, for example. In the first, Tendler gave Benny all kinds of trouble. The second time they clashed, Lew never had a chance. Benny knew what Tendler was going to do before Lew did.

“Now, against Marty Servo, Robinson had to go all out to win both times. I think Leonard would have had Servo pretty well figured out the second time where Robinson still had trouble.”

The equally ancient Lew Raymond doesn’t see it that way.

“Sure, Leonard was a wonder, but he fought a lot of fellows smaller than he was. I know, because he fought some of them for me. I can’t remember ever hearing about Ray Robinson fighting any little fellows. They’re usually bigger than he is. Leonard-Robinson, it’s a close race, but I’ll go along with Robinson.”

Fight people today generally have a class all to himself reserved for Robinson. A typical opinion is voiced by promoter and matchmaker Chickie Bogad:

“I’m ready to argue with any man in the world that Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter that ever lived. They can bring in all the Mickey Walkers, Tunneys, Armstrongs, Dempseys and Louises they want. All those guys were either boxers or punchers. Robinson can box as well as anybody ever could, and for his weight, he hits as hard as anybody ever did. What more can you ask from a fighter?”

The careful and canny Irving Cohen, manager of Rocky Graziano, in one of his rare unguarded moments some years ago, got off an opinion that represents the feelings of most of his fellow managers about Robinson. Cohen was managing tough Terry Young at the time, when someone hopefully hinted at a Young-Robinson match. The audacity of this proposition brought about one of the few moments when Cohen has lost control. Soft-voiced Irving really sounded off as he yelled:

“What are you saying! Ray Robinson! Why, he’s the greatest fighter that ever lived. I’m a manager, not an undertaker!”

Since they don't come any smoother or smarter than Irving, his words should carry a lot of weight.

Among his battling brethren, Robinson commands a similar respect. Ike Williams is a lightweight champion who would ordinarily be challenging the welterweight title holder, but so long as that title holder is Ray Robinson, Ike admits that nothing is further from his mind.

Such a fight could mean a $50,000 purse for Ike, but it’s still nothing doing. In his own division, things have reached the stage where Robinson, the champ, is willing to make concessions to get a challenger into the ring with him. He even goes so far as to offer to split the purse with capable Charley Fusari.

Fusari is apparently willing to forego a probable 25-grand-plus and a chance at the title, in favor of tangling with middleweights rather than get in there with the welter king. This is unprecedented.

In years gone by, no matter how formidable the champion, the contenders seldom passed up the opportunity for a crack at his title. This is no discredit to Fusari, who is a good welterweight, but just goes to show how far Robinson towers above the rest of his division.

Ray Robinson has been much criticized, and with reason in many instances, but fight followers are unanimous that he is probably the most “humane” of all the great boxers. It is no secret that Sugar Ray often goes in there with the idea of doing as little harm as possible to an opponent. In such cases he puts on a show of every fancy boxing trick ever heard of, to the usual delight of the spectators and with a minimum of wear and tear to his foe.

With punchers, he is seldom so charitable, however, since he cannot afford to he. On those occasions, he sends them in as hard as Louis or Dempsey ever did, pound-for-pound. The George Costner and Steve Belloise fights were striking examples of the power the stylish slugger can generate when such blasting is called for.

Furthermore, for a fighter who features fast movement, Sugar Ray seems to be wearing unusually well. There was some wishful thinking that he may have lost some of his lustre two years ago when he razzle-dazzled his way through 10 not-too-exciting-non-title rounds with Kid Gavilan. He took care of any such opinions along those lines with that snappy snuffing out of Sugar Costner on March 22, last.

As wisecrackers pointed out, Ray has gone back just one minute in five years. On February 14, 1945, he had Costner out of there in a little over one minute; last month it took him all of two minutes, 49 seconds to erase the much-improved Cincinnatian.

Ray’s durability is surprising to many, for at one time it was believed that the blandishments of the bright spots held more allure for the Sugar Baby than the rigors of the ring. Although the owner of one such hot spot himself, Ray concerns himself much more with the cash register than with the revelry. He is a strict teetotaler, and that always helps.

It is becoming more and more evident that the class limit of 147 pounds is no longer his best fighting weight, yet he is still so potent at this poundage that potential challengers invariably have other engagements when a title match with Ray Robinson is suggested. At 154 pounds or thereabouts—his weight for the Costner bout--he 1oses none of his speed while picking up added TNT with the extra poundage.

With an opponent given any kind of a look-in at all by the public, Robinson packs in the customers. In the recent Costner affair, a downpour failed to drench the enthusiasm of 11,592 Philadelphians, who put $53,752 in the till for a non-title fight. There were as many out-of-towners as Philadelphia natives among the crowd who coughed up a whopping $175,754 for the Gavilan title shot last July 11, and good old Steve Belloise drew down the biggest purse of his career when the gate for the New York Robinson-Belloise battle soared to $120,860.

It should be noted that Ray inspired these turnouts, although an odds-on favorite every time.

Unlike some other mechanically able boxers there is nothing drab or uninteresting about his ring technique. Louis, Johnson, Gans, and most of the other great Negro fighters fought with a flat-footed shuffle. Sugar is up on his toes like a ballet dancer.
His lithe, graceful movements can be appreciated by the uninitiated as well as the connoisseurs of fist fighting. In his title-winning battle with Tommy Bell, Robinson took one of his rare trips to the canvas when the hard clouting Bell landed a good one. Sugar went down with a grace that led fight manager Jimmy DeAngelo to crack:

“That’s the only guy I ever saw who’s got class even on the floor. He even looks good getting knocked down.”

Coming out of a rugged neighborhood of the type the social workers call “depressed,” and with a background subject to all the dangers contingent to such environment, no claim is made here that Sugar’s career outside the ring has been exemplary or that he hasn’t made mistakes. The consideration presented here concerns fighting ability pure and simple and when his gifts in this direction are detailed, his ranking as the greatest boxer of them all can’t be belittled.

His purely mechanical assets of unusual skill and power being obvious, they have been dealt with superlatively for years. Other and less readily recognized qualities which add up to making Ray Robinson a near perfect fighting machine are the ability to take a punch unusually well for such a frail appearing fellow, and an ability to maintain full possession of a shrewd fighting brain when he is tagged.

Ray seems immune to panic if the going gets rough. He can whale away and rip and tear like a little Dempsey at times, for all of his skill.

The record book adds more weight to the say-so of Sugar Ray’s acclaimers. He has been beaten only once. That loss was to middleweight Jake LaMotta, present holder of the title, whom he defeated four times out of five. A couple of draws with middleweights Henry Brimm and Jose Basora are the only other blemishes on an otherwise perfect record.

Possibly the greatest tribute of all to this incredible pugilist comes in the suggestion frequently made and seriously received that Ray Robinson challenge Ezzard Charles or light-heavy king Joey Maxim. This proposal has been advanced by none other than New York State Boxing Commission boss Eddie Eagan, who, gazing at the welter king with wondering admiration advised him to build up to 160 pounds and go after the heavyweight title.

The good Colonel was probably thinking of the original Joe Walcott, a 142-pounder, who beat the great light-heavyweight, Joe Choynski, when he came up with that one. Conservative Gene Tunney has been known to express similar sentiments regarding Robinson’s chances against light-heavyweights and heavyweights.

Most folks are inclined to laugh off any attempt to rate any one fighter as the superior of all others past and present. Those who reserve this spot for Ray Robinson counter by defying the questioners to come up with anybody with as strong an argument as they can put up for the Sugar Baby.

Try comparing your own candidate some time with Robinson and you will find that Sugar Ray is hard to top.

[bennie]

Randy Gordon on the CBZ...


What's he like?

Randy Gordon, like most boxing insider has a big ego, having said that, if you can get past his ego, he is a o-k guy.

Yeah, it was a loaded question. This guy gives new meaning to the word 'arrogant'.

[bennie]

Sergio Calzaghe, Joe Calzaghe and Enzo Calzaghe. Nice family shot.

[bennie]

Sugar Ray Leonard by Roger Esty



I have never been a fan of Sugar Ray Leonard. Not my kind of fighter, not my kind of guy. I don't know him personally but it's just a gut feeling. If I have to pick a moment when I first started to dislike Leonard, it was probably the second fight with Roberto Duran, although I didn't care too much for him before that either. I never forgave him. Duran was my guy. My kind of fighter, my kind of guy. Macho, earthy, A fighter's fighter.

Duran was a throwback, old school fighter, Leonard was a new age fighter. Different ways to win. The transition from the old school fighters to the new age fighters took place on November 25, 1980 at the Superdome, New Orleans. Leonard, as would Pernall Whitaker, and to some degree Floyd Mayweather Jr. brought another ingredient to the fight, embarrassment. It became fashionable to humiliate your opponent. Take away his pride. I think that Duran, a fighter's fighter, just became frustrated with Leonard's antics during the fight and just said "the hell with it". Leonard won the fight that night but I didn't think he was a fighter.

Leonard, of course, would prove me wrong (to some degree) with his wins over Tommy Hearns and Marvin Hagler. You have to respect that, I suppose (I felt Hagler won their fight and Hearns won their second fight). But if you look at his record, his accomplishments are minimal. The other big name on his resume is Wilfredo Benitez. Nothing stellar about his record.

I will always believe that Duran, at his best, was the better man, the better fighter. As the saying goes when "Duran was Duran". Duran is my kind of guy, my kind of fighter.

That was the first time Randy posted one of my pics on the thread.Thanks Randy. That was his story also.

THE GREATEST

I used to have problem with Leonard. I thought he was a bit too flashy outside the ring,but looking back on it ,I wasn't looking at Ray properly. Yeh,Duran was the macho guy,but I don't recall Ray laying flat on his face from Hearn's right hand,and ,if you look at it,Ray had more heart than Roberto. "No Mas". What the hell was that all about? Not very "macho."

Ray has always been personable. He's said in public that Tommy Hearns beat him the second time. Now what fighter would admit to something like that? Also,he sees that Tommy isn't doing that well. Ray has all his faculties. He reaches out to Hearns.

Ray never put on that "macho" act like Duran or that unkindness towards an opponent like Tyson. When Ray wanted to use Ray Robinson's nickname,he asked permission. When people would make comparisions with Leonard and Robinson,Leonard would laugh.
"Me?,scoffed Leonard."I'm no Sugar Ray Robinson. I had 50 fights. Sugar Ray was the greatest."

Sugar Ray Robinson may have been the "Greatest",but you're pretty great too.

Ray could fight, and worked out that he had the style to beat Duran.
He was pretty much his own greatest fan, though.

[Rick Farris]

Frankie Crawford . . .

I've written a lot about "Irish" Frankie Crawford, however, it's all coming together in a complete story. I learned something today, and that is Frankie's oldest son, Frankie Jr. took his life recently. I have'nt time to relate more at the moment, but will soon.

-Rick

[bennie]

Randy Gordon on the CBZ...


What's he like?

he is a bit full of himself Bennie. Then again what do you expect from a guy who once ended one of his TV broadcasts by looking directly at the camera and said with a straight face "This is Randy Gordon saying goodbye and remember as you walk thru the arena of life keep your chin tucked in and your hands held high". He does have the odd insightful story tho.

When I think of Gordon I think of his 'dabble' into the pro game in the 1970s, all for the sake of a 'story'. Fair play to the guy he trained properly and got in there. The shot of him on his back, however, out cold, is hard to forget.

[bennie]

Frankie Crawford . . .

I've written a lot about "Irish" Frankie Crawford, however, it's all coming together in a complete story. I learned something today, and that is Frankie's oldest son, Frankie Jr. took his life recently. I have'nt time to relate more at the moment, but will soon.

-Rick

That's sad. RIP.

[bennie]

Is Lennox Lewis an All Time Great?
By Geoff “The Professor” Pounder
Ringside Report


Lennox Lewis
By Diego

It is perhaps not surprising with Samuel Peter having been exposed as a fraud, and with the Klitschko brothers rise to the top of the heavyweight championship, that there should come calls for Lennox Lewis to step out of retirement and clean the whole mess up. After all, Lennox was the last heavyweight to have been able to legitimately lay claim to being the undisputed best of his era.

That Lewis was the dominant heavyweight of his time is not open to question – but where does it place him alongside the all-time greats of the flagship division? Does Lewis bear comparison with the likes of Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson?

His record was sound on paper: only 2 losses in 44 contests, with both those losses avenged in emphatic style – Lewis can claim to be only one of two heavyweights in history to have beaten every man he faced, which should place him squarely at the top table of any all-time heavyweight list.

Yet for all his undoubted abilities, Lennox Lewis was never able to quite grasp the imagination of the boxing public in the way that Ali, or Tyson, or even Holyfield was able to. There are striking similarities with the career of Larry Holmes, who fought in the shadow of Ali despite being a true and great champion, in that Lewis was never able to generate the kind of excitement at fight-time that Mike Tyson was able to engender. Of course, we all tuned in to Lennox’s title contests as we dutifully do whenever two men are pitched into a contest for the heavyweight title – but never with the same throb of anticipation that accompanied Tyson as he approached a ring.

Maybe this was because Lewis appeared to adopt a safety first approach to his boxing too often, something that certainly could never be said of Larry Holmes, Evander Holyfield or Mike Tyson. It’s true that the general public, not necessarily steeped in the beauty of boxing for boxing’s sake, likes it’s Heavyweight Champion to be a brawler, a predator, a man evincing menace and thuggery – and if they can’t have that they look for an entertainer, a man dripping with charisma and charm, disdainfully dismantling his foe with wit and wisdom. They want the bull, or the matador, and will shout equally for both.

The trouble for Lewis, and probably for Holmes, is that they were neither. Lewis boxed conservatively (never a good word to attach to a heavyweight champion) and skillfully, and often found himself dominant in fights that invariably stunk the place out. Unable to maintain an aura of invincibility through two crushing knockout defeats to middling contenders Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman, Lennox took a hesitancy into the ring that left on-lookers dissatisfied with performance after performance, and it was only very late in his career, when he dismantled an aged and unhinged Tyson, and then very nearly came unstuck against Vitali Klitschko, that Lennox finally came to life, at least in the public’s fickle imagination.

The question is: should an assessment of Lewis’s place in history be marred by a lack of the popular vote when he was clearly an outstanding fighter with a huge arsenal of gifts at his disposal. After all, he beat everyone that was put in front of him: Tyson, Holyfield, Shannon Briggs, Andrew Golota, Ray Mercer, Frank Bruno, Razor Ruddock, Frans Botha, Michael Grant. These were the “names” in his heavyweight division – and whilst some claim that Lewis made a lucrative career out of fighting nobodies, I say take a look at Mike Tyson’s record. The “names” are pretty much the same, and where there are uncommon opponents, Lewis’s were of equal quality to Iron Mike’s.

If I have to take task with Lennox, it’s that he ushered in the age of the giant Heavyweight. Before Lewis came along, men who stood more than 6 feet 4 inches were thought of as too big to be capable pugilists – and history bore this out. Before Lewis won his first WBC Title in 1993 there were two “tall” Heavyweight Champions – Jess Willard (6ft 6 1/2inches) , who reigned between 1915 and 1919, and Primo Carnera (6ft 5 ½ inches) who held the title between 1933 and 1934.

Now both Willard and Carnera hold the distinction of being, in many commentators’ views, the very worst combatants ever to have laid hands on the championship! Willard won his title in dubious circumstances when he knocked out the great Jack Johnson in Havana, Cuba in 1915 (Johnson later claimed he threw the fight), defended it once in four years, before 6 feet 1 inch Jack Dempsey took him apart in the most brutal three rounds of boxing seen before or since in a heavyweight ring. Carnera, who was nicknamed sweetly “The Ambling Alp”, was marketed more often than not as an oddity, and was widely thought to be mafia-managed, to the extent that his annexing of the title with a 6th round knockout of Jack Sharkey in 1933 was felt in some quarters to have been pre-ordained. Certainly when Carnera came up against the enigmatic and prodigiously talented Max Baer a year later, he was bounced off the canvas 11 times in 11 rounds, before the referee called a merciless halt to proceedings.

Until Lewis came along at 6 feet 5 inch, the best heavyweights tended to measure somewhere around 6ft 1inches to 6 feet 3inches tall. Of course, since Lewis, they’ve shot up still further, with the Klitschko brothers over 6’6,” and of course the freakish Nikolay Valuev, who stands over 7 feet tall. The point is – such height may well translate into a certain type of physical advantage, but it may also prove disadvantageous in terms of speed, leverage (it’s harder to punch down than up) and mobility. It is perhaps informative that the likes of Rocky Marciano, Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson stood less than six feet tall, and the most-often stated all-time greats in the division, stood just over 6 feet tall – Louis, Dempsey and Johnson. Ali, of course, was a big heavyweight for his day, at 6 feet 3 inches. When these Champions stood across from a ring with the giants of their day, they invariably had easy nights. Dempsey had his Willard, Joe Louis dispatched the 6 feet 6 inch Buddy Baer in less than a round, and Ali destroyed Ernie Terrell (6 feet 6 inches) in 1967.

So what does all this have to do with Lennox Lewis’s legacy? Well, it’s this scribe’s view that Lewis was a good, big heavyweight in an era when that was often enough to get him through. He struggled with Evander Holyfield, a “small” but highly skilled protagonist, and got himself knocked out by two smaller men in McCall and Rahman. It has been said that had Lennox had an opponent worthy of him, a Frazier to his Ali, then he would have been more highly thought of. Many people believe that that opponent should have been Riddick Bowe, had he not frittered away his promise on cheeseburgers and paranoia. We’ll never know, although one suspects that given the problems that Holyfield presented for Bowe, the latter was not perhaps destined for the heights that Lennox himself managed to climb.

In conclusion, then, Lewis was good, but not great. I don’t believe he would have beaten the likes of Dempsey, Louis, Ali or Johnson – and in fact, I believe he would have been taken out by an in-prime Tyson (ie before Kevin Rooney jumped ship). For this writer, Lewis stands just outside the top ten or fifteen heavyweights of all time. Granted, he was thirty-seven when in his final contest he took on Vitali Klitschko, but he came desperately close to annihilation in that match against a man who’s family have set new standards of heavyweight clumsiness. I invite anyone to watch over the tape of Klitschko in the Lewis and Peter fights, and then go into the archives and pull out some footage of the Ambling Alp, Primo Carnera himself, in action. The similarity is startling.

Lewis lacked 'fire' at vital times in his career. Mickey Duff raves about him in his book, and once placed a huge bet on Lewis to beat his own man (Akinwande) after watching Lennox's final public workout, but Lewis should have made a statement in that first fight with Holyfield, and in the Tyson fight, and he didn't.

[kikibalt]

When fighters were fighters

Larry Cisneros

Alias The Rock of New Mexico
Country USA
Global Id 10235
Birthplace Questa, NM
Division Welterweight
Born 1917-09-17
Stance Orthodox
Height 166cm


Career Record © www.boxrec.com

Date Opponent Location Result
1948-09-02 Johnny Greco Montreal, Canada NC NC 4
1948-05-25 Tony Martinez Taos, USA W KO 5
1948-02-04 Jesse Flores Oakland, USA L MD 10
1947-10-09 Frankie Fernandez Honolulu, USA L KO 4
1947-08-19 Gene Burton Los Angeles, USA L UD 10
1947-06-24 Chalky Wright Albuquerque, USA W PTS 10
1947-05-27 Eddie Prince Los Angeles, USA W MD 10
1947-04-25 Roman Alvarez Hollywood, USA W MD 10
1947-04-03 Johnny Suarez Hollywood, USA W KO 3
1947-01-15 Frankie Moore Oakland, USA W SD 10
1946-12-20 Vic Grupico Hollywood, USA W PTS 10
1946-10-28 Johnny Williams New York City, USA W SD 10
1946-10-22 Joey Varoff Brooklyn, USA W PTS 8
1946-08-30 Norman Rubio New York City, USA W PTS 10
1946-08-24 Victor Moreno Staten Island, USA W PTS 8
1946-06-07 Matt Oglesby Albuquerque, USA W KO 4
1946-05-22 Frankie Moore Oakland, USA W PTS 10
1946-05-10 Memo Llanes Hollywood, USA W TKO 9
1946-04-05 Leon Spencer Hollywood, USA W UD 10
1946-02-05 John Thomas Los Angeles, USA L SD 10
1945-12-14 Eddie Hudson Hollywood, USA W UD 10
1945-10-12 Matt Oglesby Hollywood, USA W UD 10
1943-12-29 Marcel Cerdan Algiers, Algeria L KO 2
1943-10-13 Marcel Cerdan Oran, Algeria L KO 6
1943-09-29 Jerry Blackwell Algiers, Algeria W KO 2
1943-06-27 Dixie Fleming Casablanca, Morocco W PTS 10
1942-03-23 George Costner Louisville, USA W PTS 10
1942-03-02 Bobby Simmons Louisville, USA W PTS 10
1941-10-15 California Jackie Wilson Oakland, USA L PTS 10
1941-09-26 Johnny Hutchinson Hollywood, USA W PTS 10
1941-08-15 Richard Polite Hollywood, USA D TD 8
1941-08-01 California Jackie Wilson Hollywood, USA L PTS 10
1941-07-02 Sheik Rangel Oakland, USA W PTS 10
1941-06-13 Johnny Hutchinson Hollywood, USA L PTS 10
1941-05-27 Johnny Hutchinson Los Angeles, USA W PTS 10
1941-05-21 Sammy Brown Oakland, USA W KO 7
1941-04-10 Ray Price Hollywood, USA W PTS 10
1941-02-28 Cecil Hudson Hollywood, USA L PTS 10
1941-02-21 Andy Scrivani Hollywood, USA W PTS 10
1941-02-07 Andy Scrivani Hollywood, USA W PTS 6
1941-01-07 Ray Price Los Angeles, USA D PTS 6
1940-12-06 Cecil Hudson Hollywood, USA L PTS 6
1940-11-06 Dub Bowen Wilmington, USA W KO 3
1940-10-11 Ray Price Hollywood, USA W PTS 6
1940-09-11 Dencio Cabanela Wilmington, USA D TD 6
1940-08-23 Chief Evening Thunder Hollywood, USA W PTS 6
1940-08-12 Eddie Bello San Francisco, USA W PTS 6
1940-08-05 Jimmy Liggett San Francisco, USA W TKO 2
1940-07-19 Henry Majcher Hollywood, USA W PTS 4
1940-06-14 Chief Evening Thunder Hollywood, USA W PTS 6
1940-05-03 Willie Fields Hollywood, USA W PTS 4
1940-04-19 Eddie Stanley Hollywood, USA W PTS 4
1940-04-09 Chief Crazy Horse Los Angeles, USA W PTS 6
1940-04-05 Zeke Castro Hollywood, USA W PTS 4
1939-12-01 Ted Garcia San Luis, USA W PTS 10
1939-10-16 Davie Manzanares San Luis, USA W KO 1
1939-09-18 Willie Russell Columbus, USA W PTS 10
1939-08-29 Stanley Poreda Detroit, USA W PTS 10
1939-07-31 Willie Russell Columbus, USA L PTS 10
1939-07-28 Joe Doty Sault Sainte Marie, USA W PTS 10
1939-07-18 Willie Russell Columbus, USA W PTS 10
1939-07-10 Mansfield Driskill Detroit, USA W PTS 8
1939-05-26 Young Kid McCoy Detroit, USA L PTS 8
1939-05-12 Johnny Kid Crismas Detroit, USA W PTS 8
1939-05-02 Lloyd Pine Detroit, USA W PTS 8
1939-04-19 Jackie Simmons Milwaukee, USA W PTS 6
1939-04-17 Johnny Green Detroit, USA W KO 2
1939-04-03 Ralph Barnett Detroit, USA W KO 4
1939-03-24 Eddie Scott Detroit, USA W PTS 6
1939-03-21 Nick Basil Detroit, USA W KO 2
1939-03-13 Young Armando Santiago Chicago, USA W PTS 6
1939-03-01 Lee Sheppard Cleveland, USA L KO 2
1938-02-10 Buster Johnson W KO 3
1938-01-25 Tiny Garcia W PTS 10
1938-01-20 Pete Regal W KO 4
1938-01-15 Tiny Garcia W PTS 10
1938-01-05 Moose Maxwell W KO 2
1938-01-01 Joe Gardini W KO 3
1937-08-05 Chato Gonzalez W KO 2
1937-07-30 Teles Vigil San Luis, USA W KO 2
1937-02-05 Johnny Martin W PTS 8
1937-02-01 Jimmy Carter W PTS 10
1937-01-25 Bobby Valdez W PTS 8
1937-01-20 Smokie Kansas W KO 3
1937-01-15 Encinio Romero W KO 3
1937-01-01 Perry Cruz W PTS 6

Record to Date
Won 68 (KOs 20) Lost 14 Drawn 3 Total 86

[Randyman]