So many like to post lists up but the problem is that after the first few spots it becomes almost impossible to police your list with any confidence.
I prefer putting fighters into categories A, B, C, etc... For A class I'm talking about the absolute cream of the division. Guys who are above othjer recognised greats.
Top Tiers
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dr_devious
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5349
- Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 09:19
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Ezzard, pretty good lists.
Heavyweight has been argued a lot so I won't get into that much. I do think that Holmes and Johnson belong more with Frazier,Foreman,Marcinao, etc. but thats a close call.
Agree with Ezzard at 175 except like dr_ devious I would add Bob Foster. He was closer to the top guys than he was to Loughran and Greb.
160-Pretty much agree with you except Cerdan doesn't quite belong. Hard to say about Fitzsimmons.
147- May add Gavilan and Ross. Otherwise agree.
135- Would add Armstrong. Probably take out Canzoneri. Otherwise agree.
126- Would take out Armstrong. Pep,Saddler, and Sanchez are clearly the top 3. You could just make them the only Level A fighters. After that guys that you listed like Dixon,Pedroza,Nelson, and Pacquaio could be grouped with old timers like Attell,Kilbane, and McGovern as well as Saldivar and Arguello. You could also probably make a case for Barrera and Morales.
What about bantamweight and flyweight?
At 118-I would go with Jofre,Harada,Zarate,Olivares, and Brown.
At 112- Wilde,Canto,Perez.
Some great fighters are hard to put in a particular division-Fitzsimmons,Arguello,Hearns, Canzoneri etc.
Overall it does look like all 3 of us (Ezzard,dr_devious, Ambling Alp) are pretty much in agreement.
Heavyweight has been argued a lot so I won't get into that much. I do think that Holmes and Johnson belong more with Frazier,Foreman,Marcinao, etc. but thats a close call.
Agree with Ezzard at 175 except like dr_ devious I would add Bob Foster. He was closer to the top guys than he was to Loughran and Greb.
160-Pretty much agree with you except Cerdan doesn't quite belong. Hard to say about Fitzsimmons.
147- May add Gavilan and Ross. Otherwise agree.
135- Would add Armstrong. Probably take out Canzoneri. Otherwise agree.
126- Would take out Armstrong. Pep,Saddler, and Sanchez are clearly the top 3. You could just make them the only Level A fighters. After that guys that you listed like Dixon,Pedroza,Nelson, and Pacquaio could be grouped with old timers like Attell,Kilbane, and McGovern as well as Saldivar and Arguello. You could also probably make a case for Barrera and Morales.
What about bantamweight and flyweight?
At 118-I would go with Jofre,Harada,Zarate,Olivares, and Brown.
At 112- Wilde,Canto,Perez.
Some great fighters are hard to put in a particular division-Fitzsimmons,Arguello,Hearns, Canzoneri etc.
Overall it does look like all 3 of us (Ezzard,dr_devious, Ambling Alp) are pretty much in agreement.
Last edited by Ambling Alp on 04 Dec 2007, 17:25, edited 1 time in total.
Just don't think I know enough or have seen enougn below 126 to really have any confidence in my picks.
Agree about Foster but Greb did beat Tunney and got a draw with Norfolk too. I mean thats better than any of Foster's wins.
I think Cerdan is criminally underrated.
Agree on Gavilan.
Think I rushed my feather list.
Agree about Foster but Greb did beat Tunney and got a draw with Norfolk too. I mean thats better than any of Foster's wins.
I think Cerdan is criminally underrated.
Agree on Gavilan.
Think I rushed my feather list.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
I'm surprised that more people haven't responded to this thread. It's a lot more interesting than most of the current ones.
Overall, we (as well as dr_devious) seem to be on the same page with a handful of disagreements.
Greb's win over Tunney was better than any one of Foster's. However, overall Foster had the more impressive lightheavyweight career. He was a dominaint champion for 6 years. Although some of his competiton wasn't that great, that still is pretty impressive. It's comparable to Hagler's reign at middleweight.
Cerdan is a hard guy to rate. His detractors say that his competition wasn't that good. Some say Zale and Holman were washed up, he barely beat Abrams, he lost to Delannoit, and of course lost to La Motta.
On the other side of the coin, he won the rematch against Delannoit, who was an underrated fighter himself. Abrams is also very underrated, and gave a lot of great fighters trouble and beat some.
Was Zale totally shot? He did beat Graziano just 3 months prior.
Cerdan himself was no kid himself when he lost to LaMotta. He was pushing 33, and had more than 100 fights.
Cerdan only lost 4 out of 115 fights, 2 by disqualification, 1 to a good fighter that was avenged, and the LaMotta fight. That's pretty consistent.
There are some people that would agree that Cerdan belongs with elite, and others who don't think he is even close.
I tend to come down in the middle. I don't think that Cerdan was quite as good as Hagler,Monzon,Greb, or probably Robinson. On a given night, he probably could beat them, but would probably lose the majority of the time. I think he belongs in the group right behind them.
The guys that you have mentioned before are your "A" fighters. You listed in in the middleweight division and lightheavyweight division some guys that you thought were "close calls". Are those your "B" fighters?
Who are your "B" fighters in the other weight classes?
Overall, we (as well as dr_devious) seem to be on the same page with a handful of disagreements.
Greb's win over Tunney was better than any one of Foster's. However, overall Foster had the more impressive lightheavyweight career. He was a dominaint champion for 6 years. Although some of his competiton wasn't that great, that still is pretty impressive. It's comparable to Hagler's reign at middleweight.
Cerdan is a hard guy to rate. His detractors say that his competition wasn't that good. Some say Zale and Holman were washed up, he barely beat Abrams, he lost to Delannoit, and of course lost to La Motta.
On the other side of the coin, he won the rematch against Delannoit, who was an underrated fighter himself. Abrams is also very underrated, and gave a lot of great fighters trouble and beat some.
Was Zale totally shot? He did beat Graziano just 3 months prior.
Cerdan himself was no kid himself when he lost to LaMotta. He was pushing 33, and had more than 100 fights.
Cerdan only lost 4 out of 115 fights, 2 by disqualification, 1 to a good fighter that was avenged, and the LaMotta fight. That's pretty consistent.
There are some people that would agree that Cerdan belongs with elite, and others who don't think he is even close.
I tend to come down in the middle. I don't think that Cerdan was quite as good as Hagler,Monzon,Greb, or probably Robinson. On a given night, he probably could beat them, but would probably lose the majority of the time. I think he belongs in the group right behind them.
The guys that you have mentioned before are your "A" fighters. You listed in in the middleweight division and lightheavyweight division some guys that you thought were "close calls". Are those your "B" fighters?
Who are your "B" fighters in the other weight classes?
Those close calls are guys I would be open to be persuaded on. I think they could be A class fighters and understand why some think they are. Generallly I pick fighters i think are the top of the next batch at the very least.Ambling Alp wrote:I'm surprised that more people haven't responded to this thread. It's a lot more interesting than most of the current ones.
Overall, we (as well as dr_devious) seem to be on the same page with a handful of disagreements.
Greb's win over Tunney was better than any one of Foster's. However, overall Foster had the more impressive lightheavyweight career. He was a dominaint champion for 6 years. Although some of his competiton wasn't that great, that still is pretty impressive. It's comparable to Hagler's reign at middleweight.
Cerdan is a hard guy to rate. His detractors say that his competition wasn't that good. Some say Zale and Holman were washed up, he barely beat Abrams, he lost to Delannoit, and of course lost to La Motta.
On the other side of the coin, he won the rematch against Delannoit, who was an underrated fighter himself. Abrams is also very underrated, and gave a lot of great fighters trouble and beat some.
Was Zale totally shot? He did beat Graziano just 3 months prior.
Cerdan himself was no kid himself when he lost to LaMotta. He was pushing 33, and had more than 100 fights.
Cerdan only lost 4 out of 115 fights, 2 by disqualification, 1 to a good fighter that was avenged, and the LaMotta fight. That's pretty consistent.
There are some people that would agree that Cerdan belongs with elite, and others who don't think he is even close.
I tend to come down in the middle. I don't think that Cerdan was quite as good as Hagler,Monzon,Greb, or probably Robinson. On a given night, he probably could beat them, but would probably lose the majority of the time. I think he belongs in the group right behind them.
The guys that you have mentioned before are your "A" fighters. You listed in in the middleweight division and lightheavyweight division some guys that you thought were "close calls". Are those your "B" fighters?
Who are your "B" fighters in the other weight classes?
I've seen Greb in top 10 175 lists and can see why. I usually put Foster in with the elite, this time I didn't. I accept your points and should include him.
What I was trying to achieve was an A list for each division where if you think a guy is the #1 then I can disgaree but can see that you have a point.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Heavies:Louis,Ali,Holmes,Foreman
Lt. Heavies:Tunney,Moore,Foster,Jones
Middle:Ketchel,Greb,Monzon,Hagler
Welter:Armstrong,Robinson,Napoles,Leonard
Light:Gans,Leonard,Williams,Duran
Feather:Pep,Saddler,Arguello,PacMan
Bantam:Ortiz,Jofre,Olivares,Zarate
Fly:Wilde,Villa,Perez,Canto
Sam Langford can fit in either Welter or Middleweight div.
Lt. Heavies:Tunney,Moore,Foster,Jones
Middle:Ketchel,Greb,Monzon,Hagler
Welter:Armstrong,Robinson,Napoles,Leonard
Light:Gans,Leonard,Williams,Duran
Feather:Pep,Saddler,Arguello,PacMan
Bantam:Ortiz,Jofre,Olivares,Zarate
Fly:Wilde,Villa,Perez,Canto
Sam Langford can fit in either Welter or Middleweight div.
Re: Top Tiers
Anyone else want to name their top tiers?
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Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
Re: Top Tiers
I'll take a shot when time permits. In the interim, someone mention the eternally-undersold Billy Conn at 175lbs, if only as a, "nearly."
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Re: Top Tiers
Conn should be Level "B" for lightheavyweight. Same level as guys like Loughran and Harold Johnson.
Re: Top Tiers
Cruiser
Holyfield,Jirov,Gomez
:??
Holyfield,Jirov,Gomez
:??
Re: Top Tiers
Note: these are not necessarily in any order.
175 - Charles, Moore, Spinks, Tunney, Foster.
160 - Robinson, Greb, Monzon, Hagler.
147 - Robinson, Walker, Leonard, Hearns, Gavilan, Griffith.
135 - Duran, Leonard, Armstrong, Whitaker, Williams.
126 - Pep, Saddler, Sanchez.
118 - Ortiz, Jofre, Brown.
112 - Wilde, Perez.
175 - Charles, Moore, Spinks, Tunney, Foster.
160 - Robinson, Greb, Monzon, Hagler.
147 - Robinson, Walker, Leonard, Hearns, Gavilan, Griffith.
135 - Duran, Leonard, Armstrong, Whitaker, Williams.
126 - Pep, Saddler, Sanchez.
118 - Ortiz, Jofre, Brown.
112 - Wilde, Perez.
Re: Top Tiers
Very well put together...My2Sense wrote:Note: these are not necessarily in any order.
175 - Charles, Moore, Spinks, Tunney, Foster.
160 - Robinson, Greb, Monzon, Hagler.
147 - Robinson, Walker, Leonard, Hearns, Gavilan, Griffith.
135 - Duran, Leonard, Armstrong, Whitaker, Williams.
126 - Pep, Saddler, Sanchez.
118 - Ortiz, Jofre, Brown.
112 - Wilde, Perez.
Interested in your thoughts for leaving out Napoles at 147 and Gans at 135... And Ross?