Rocky Vs Patterson.... what if.....

[theguvnor]

What if Rocky had not retired through injury in 1955, but instead defended against Floyd Patterson in 1956.... what would have been the outcome.

Factors to consider:-

Patterson would have been 12 years younger

Looking at their common opponet....
Rocky took 9 rounds to KO Archie Moore, whereas Floyd did the job 4 rounds eairler, a year later. Is this relevant?

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts

[silkov]

I think a confident Patterson could have beaten Marciano.... the Patterson who beat Chuvalo, Bonevena, and Quarry and indeed earlier Moore would have troubled Marciano with his speed and won a close decision after a bruiser. Floyd showed later in his career that he was able to win tough fights against fighters just mentioned, I think his confidence was undermined during his reign by the overcautious D'amato. Marciano was in truth no Liston, so I do not see him blasting Patterson out, it would be a distance fight I think with Patterson going down but also Marciano going down too and I see Patterson winning on points.

[Eric the Viking]

I think Patterson would've been like a larger, younger version of the Charles and Moore who Rocky faced. Based on that, I've gotta go with Floyd by late-round KO or a cuts stoppage.

But since it never happened, I can't hold it against Marciano that I think a young Patterson would've beaten him.

[Marciano Frazier]

What if Rocky had not retired through injury in 1955, but instead defended against Floyd Patterson in 1956.... what would have been the outcome.

Factors to consider:-

Patterson would have been 12 years younger

Looking at their common opponet....
Rocky took 9 rounds to KO Archie Moore, whereas Floyd did the job 4 rounds eairler, a year later. Is this relevant?

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts

Moore was very drained and tired for the Patterson fight. He had fought 11 times in the past year since losing to Marciano. Patterson did get him out quicker, but does anyone honestly think that matters?

Marciano-Patterson would be one of the easiest wins for Marciano against an all-time great fighter you could pick. Patterson had a weak chin. He was down over twenty times in his career, and his career was not immensely long for a heavyweight's. Patterson was blown out early three times, twice against Liston and once by Johansson. And not only did Patterson have one of the weakest chins of all the heavyweight champions, but he was also a come-forward slugger type who largely depended on landing that leaping left hook and knocking you out or out-hustling you to a decision. Patterson would not be able to knock the iron-chinned Marciano out, nor would he be able to outhustle him. His only big advantage would be his speed, but Marciano faced and defeated very fast fighters during his career.

Marciano by KO. I'm not sure exactly when in the fight it would be, but he would knock Patterson out. It all depends on what round he catches him in, which he would do.

However, since this would be a 33 or 34-year-old Marciano who reportedly had back problems at the time(although this is a very odd issue. Marciano's biographer, Everett Skehan, claims that Marciano had horrible back problems at the time, but Marciano, his camp, and most people near him, said that he did not. I would tend to lean towards him not having had back problems at the time, and this being something of an error by Skehan) and might well be slipping going against a fighter 12 years younger than himself who has been rapidly on the rise in recent times. Prime Marciano vs. Patterson is an easy pick, but in 1956, it's a little more interesting. I still favor Marciano, though.

[Marciano Frazier]

I think a confident Patterson could have beaten Marciano.... the Patterson who beat Chuvalo, Bonevena, and Quarry and indeed earlier Moore would have troubled Marciano with his speed and won a close decision after a bruiser. Floyd showed later in his career that he was able to win tough fights against fighters just mentioned, I think his confidence was undermined during his reign by the overcautious D'amato. Marciano was in truth no Liston, so I do not see him blasting Patterson out, it would be a distance fight I think with Patterson going down but also Marciano going down too and I see Patterson winning on points.

Marciano was no Liston? How? Do you mean in size? That's true. Intimidation? Certainly. Marciano was similar to Liston in punching power, though, and was a much more aggressive, busier fighter with a much stronger mentality and much better conditioning.

And even if you think Marciano was no Liston, he was certainly better than Johansson, who also blew Patterson away in the early rounds. Really, how do you honestly think Patterson could beat Marciano? This is a guy with possibly the weakest chin of any heavyweight champion in history going against one of the greatest punchers of all time who had an iron jaw, great stamina and incredible toughness and tenacity. Maybe in 1956, but in their primes, this should be a pretty easy pick.

[Marciano Frazier]

I think Patterson would've been like a larger, younger version of the Charles and Moore who Rocky faced. Based on that, I've gotta go with Floyd by late-round KO or a cuts stoppage.

But since it never happened, I can't hold it against Marciano that I think a young Patterson would've beaten him.

Patterson was no larger than Moore or Charles. Charles was also 6'1" and in the upper 180s in weight, the same size as Patterson, and Moore was slightly smaller than Patterson, but nothing significant. How can you call Patterson a younger version of Moore and Charles? Moore and Charles were slick defensive fighters who stayed on the back-foot and focused on outboxing Marciano, although Marciano still brutally knocked both of them out. Patterson was a come-forward fighter, a slugger. He plays perfectly into Marciano's hands. Patterson wouldn't have enough power to knock Marciano out, but that's far from true on the other end, and Marciano would be right in there in the trenches with him all night. The chances of Patterson beating a prime Marciano are extremely low.

[Tantum]

Rocky has no Chuvalo chin, and Floyd had Chuvalo hurt a few times in that fight, how do you figure Floyd is too weak to KO Rocky? Archie Moore, and Walcott floored him, Imagine Patterson bouncing 5-6 power punch combos off his head...

I'm not saying Floyd would have won for certain, but give the man credit, he's far better than you claim.

[Marciano Frazier]

Rocky has no Chuvalo chin, and Floyd had Chuvalo hurt a few times in that fight, how do you figure Floyd is too weak to KO Rocky? Archie Moore, and Walcott floored him, Imagine Patterson bouncing 5-6 power punch combos off his head...

I'm not saying Floyd would have won for certain, but give the man credit, he's far better than you claim.

Patterson never hurt Chuvalo. No one ever seriously hurt Chuvalo in his career, in fact. Nor did anyone ever seriously stagger Marciano. The worst Marciano was ever hurt was in the first round against Walcott the first time, and even then he was far from being knocked out. Marciano had a granite chin, and Patterson was a good, but not great, puncher. Patterson would not be able to knock Marciano out. Perhaps if Marciano just took a horrific beating for more than ten straight rounds, Patterson could knock him out through sheer accumulation, but that is extremely unlikely. Marciano would knock him out by then anyway, and would not really be dominated at any point in the fight. Patterson was not as good a fighter as Marciano, and his style was perfect for Marciano's as well. I would be very confident betting on Marciano hypothetically were this fight to somehow magically be made.

[Tantum]

Patterson was not as good a fighter as Marciano?? Was this a joke?

Have you actually seen either of them fight?

Marciano hits harder than Liston? Another joke?

Marciano's chin couldn't be smashed to bits by a 6 power punch combo he wouldn't see? (Yet he got dropped by single shots that weren't all that big) Yet another joke?

[theguvnor]

i understand Rocky was a tough SOB, but was his chin really that good??

afterall did he fight real power punchers?
Cockell, LsStarza, were never going to trouble him, Wallcot and Charles were not power punchers like Tyson or Foreman... or were they?.
i know Louis could hit a bit but he was too old at the time they fought, (yes i know the last thing you lose is your punch).

how does Rockys chin compare to say.... Randy "tex" Cobb, now there was a tough chin.

[Marciano Frazier]

Patterson was not as good a fighter as Marciano?? Was this a joke?

Have you actually seen either of them fight?

Marciano hits harder than Liston? Another joke?

Marciano's chin couldn't be smashed to bits by a 6 power punch combo he wouldn't see? (Yet he got dropped by single shots that weren't all that big) Yet another joke?

"Patterson was not as good a fighter as Marciano?? Was this a joke?"
No, it's something that should be an obvious fact to anyone who knows much of anything about either of their careers. Marciano was an undefeated champion who beat the best of his era consistently, ducking no one, and was clearly by far the best fighter of the 1950s. Patterson, on the other hand, was extremely sheltered for most of his major career, and when he was let out of his protected shell, he usually lost or struggled monumentally. In fact, even when being fed total set-up opponents, Patterson struggled surprisingly hard. He fought a fighter in his pro debut for the title. Patterson was finally given a good opponent in Johansson, and he lost badly the first time, came back in an excellent performance to win the second fight, and in a life-and-death war, he came out on top in the third fight after being stunningly close to being knocked out again. Patterson was herded around and kept away from most of the top contenders of his era during his title reign, and the two real world class opponents he actually fought, Johansson and Liston, he lost to. He was crushed both times by Liston. Patterson was knocked down and wobbled on a regular basis throughout his career, even against non-punchers and fighters with little skill. And yet you somehow think Marciano wouldn't do the same? Marciano was a top-notch puncher, with by far enough power to put Patterson away.

"Have you actually seen either of them fight?"
I OWN at least a half-dozen complete or near-complete Marciano fights and about five complete or near-complete Patterson fights on VHS. How about you?

"Marciano hits harder than Liston? Another joke?"
I never said that. Stop throwing words in my mouth. Marciano was at least COMPARABLE to Liston in punching power. I didn't say he necessarily hit harder, but his punching power was at least comparable to Liston's, and certainly by far enough to do the job of putting Patterson away and more.

"Marciano's chin couldn't be smashed to bits by a 6 power punch combo he wouldn't see? (Yet he got dropped by single shots that weren't all that big) Yet another joke?"
Have you ever seen either of these knockdowns? For that matter, have you ever seen a full Marciano fight? The punch that put Marciano down against Walcott was a GREAT punch from a fighter with a devastating left hook who landed it flush on Rocky's jaw, the same punch that left Ezzard Charles dancing around the ring like Trevor Berbick, and Marciano still got up by the count of three and went on to win that fight by devastating knockout. I really have to question whether you have ever seen the knockdown of Marciano by Moore. This was a total balance issue. Marciano was down for less than a two-count and came storming right after Moore immediately, to again win by a brutal knockout. This is like saying "Ali's chin couldn't be smashed to bits by Patterson's six-punch combos when he was dropped by Chuck Wepner?"

[Marciano Frazier]

i understand Rocky was a tough SOB, but was his chin really that good??

afterall did he fight real power punchers?
Cockell, LsStarza, were never going to trouble him, Wallcot and Charles were not power punchers like Tyson or Foreman... or were they?.
i know Louis could hit a bit but he was too old at the time they fought, (yes i know the last thing you lose is your punch).

how does Rockys chin compare to say.... Randy "tex" Cobb, now there was a tough chin.

Louis was still a pretty dangerous puncher when he faced Marciano. Rex Layne was also a known hard hitter. Nat Fleischer said himself, "Layne looms as the outstanding prospect this side of the Missouri... he is a hard hitter... He can hit and has an abundance of courage, and has what it takes to be developed into the next heavyweight king." I don't believe that was the exact wording, but something extremely close to that. Anyway, Layne was a hard hitter and many thought he was going to be the next champion, before he was brutally knocked out in six rounds by Marciano with a right hand that knocked his front teeth out and left him limp on the canvas for a full ten count.

I don't think Marciano's chin was quite as good as Tex Cobb's, but it was granite nonetheless.

[Tantum]

I have Marciano - Walcott on VHS, and I have seen the other KD. The shot Walcott landed wasn't a huge shot. Patterson hits atleast that hard, and much faster.

Patterson struggled hard against Rademacher? Looks to me he wasn't taking him seriously enough until he got dropped. In which case he got up and took Pete out pretty handily. (another fight I have)

I'm not saying Floyd would for sure have won. I'm just questioning your logic that this is a "gimme" for Marciano.

[KOJOE90]

I've always felt that Walcotts knockdown of Marciano was more to do with timeing and accuracy as opposed to just strictly power. Walcott really did have some lovely moves, his knockout of Charles is one of the most wonderfully well timed punches I've ever seen, a punch Ray Robinson would have been proud to throw. Just an observation.


As for Marciona V Patterson, it's a fight I've mused over for many a year, mainly because it's one of those mythical matches that easily could have happened.

In basic terms I would say that Patterson was the better Boxer but Marciano was the better fighter, if you get my drift. Pattersons hand speed and youth would I feel make things tough for Marciano IMO. However, Marciano seemed to have a habit of eventually catching up with 'clever boxers'. This I feel would be the case in this match-up. Both fighters had much to be admired but like all fighters had the flaws, Pattersons was his chin and I'll go for a Marciano stoppage win in around 8-10 rounds, but Marciano would know he had been in a fight, make no mistake about that.

As for other points raised on this thread Marciano's chin was good enough to never get KO'd, so he obviously had very very tough whiskers. May not have been in the McCall league but it wasn't far behind. I've never seen but read in various places that Marciano was hurt against Carmine Vingo, a fight Marciano claimed to be his toughest fight. Unfortunatly due to the injuries Carmine Vingo suffered in this fight he never boxed again so we never found out how good he could have been.

I would agree that Marciano's punching power was comparible to Listons.

Both Patterson and Marciano were protected to a certain degree at various times in there career's. Early on in Marciano's career he was often steered clear from tricky/slick Boxers as, partly due to a short amatuer career, as a young pro was very green and clumsy. His manager Al Weill was a intelligent match-maker who also worked for the then powerfull IBC and was able to guide his young Heavyweight well, allowing him to slowly rise up the rankings with minimal risk untill Marciano's excellent trainer had greatly improved Rocky's boxing skills.

On the other hand Paterson was protected whilst Champion by his manager Cus. I understand that Patterson went against Cus's advice in taking the Liston match.

[Alister]

What if Rocky had not retired through injury in 1955, but instead defended against Floyd Patterson in 1956.... what would have been the outcome.

Factors to consider:-

Patterson would have been 12 years younger

Looking at their common opponet....
Rocky took 9 rounds to KO Archie Moore, whereas Floyd did the job 4 rounds eairler, a year later. Is this relevant?

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts

I'd go with Marciano via late round KO.
For their common opponent, Archie Moore, I'll go with the "styles make fights" argument. Moore had the necessary experience and tools to deal with the slower, plodding style of Marciano for 9 rounds, but not the reflexes to help him versus the much quicker fisted Patterson.
While the age factor may not be signifigant to any degree here, I'll say that Moore would still have been a year worse than a year better in the Patterson fight.

I believe that Patterson would not have managed to back up Marciano and would have been worn down for a late stoppage. A KO/TKO for Patterson certainly seems out of the question, and he had much to weak a chin to win the majority of 15 rounds against Marciano.

Alister

[Marciano Frazier]

I have Marciano - Walcott on VHS, and I have seen the other KD. The shot Walcott landed wasn't a huge shot. Patterson hits atleast that hard, and much faster.

Patterson struggled hard against Rademacher? Looks to me he wasn't taking him seriously enough until he got dropped. In which case he got up and took Pete out pretty handily. (another fight I have)

I'm not saying Floyd would for sure have won. I'm just questioning your logic that this is a "gimme" for Marciano.

"I have Marciano - Walcott on VHS, and I have seen the other KD. The shot Walcott landed wasn't a huge shot. Patterson hits atleast that hard, and much faster."
The Walcott punch was a perfect left hook. Walcott threw that punch perfectly timed with perfect leverage and form right flush on Marciano's chin. That was about as good a left hook as it gets. But Marciano was still up within three seconds and went on to win. Walcott himself later admitted he had been certain he had just knocked Marciano out when he landed that hook and Rocky went down. He turned his back and walked to a neutral corner to wait for Marciano to be counted out, only for the count to stop at three. Marciano's trainer, Charley Goldman once said that the punch was a "perfect shot. I don't know how Rocky got up from it."

"Patterson struggled hard against Rademacher? Looks to me he wasn't taking him seriously enough until he got dropped. In which case he got up and took Pete out pretty handily. (another fight I have)"
Regardless, Marciano was never down or in trouble the way Patterson was in so many of his fights, and even against very mediocre opposition. Patterson's title reign doesn't come close to Marciano's. Patterson was fed easy opponents and steered around the real top guys like Machen and Folley for the duration of his title reign. Instead of fighting those guys, who his camp was blatantly ducking, Patterson was fighting the likes of trial horse Brian London, a mediocre trail horse type, McNeely, and Rademacher, who was again in his professional debut fighting a fighter with FAR more experience, but still managed to put Patterson down.

A fighter with a 5-8-1 record once put Patterson down for a six-count. Patterson's best title defense besides Johansson was probably his win over undefeated Roy Harris, but Harris was a feather-fisted fighter and a perfect set-up for Patterson. McNeeley was an undefeated fighter who had been extremely protected and had done nothing to earn himself a title shot. The two really legitimate top fighters Patterson faced for the title, he lost to. He also lost badly to Ali, but I give him a bit of leeway for that fight because he had back problems at the time. In the later part of his career, after losing the title, Patterson was much less protected, but with very mixed results.

"I'm not saying Floyd would for sure have won. I'm just questioning your logic that this is a "gimme" for Marciano."
This isn't necessarily a "gimme," as despite all my bashing of him in this thread, Patterson was a great fighter and had enough talent that it's not a total impossibility for him to beat Marciano. However, this is one of the easiest picks you can make among two all-time great fighters. Marciano was not only clearly a better fighter than Patterson, but his strengths and weaknesses as well as the two fighters' styles are very well-suited for a Marciano KO victory. Patterson was more of a slugger than a boxer and he didn't have close to the punch or the chin that Marciano had, nor was his stamina as good. He wasn't as physically strong as Marciano, and while Patterson generally had a pretty good defense, if that many total unknown fighters and relatively weak hitters could hurt Patterson and put him down throughout his career, I don't think Marciano would have much trouble doing it as well.

[TheRiverCityHippy]

i like floyd the man and the fighter but i honestly couldn`t see him beating marciano, even a old one.
for all his faults the one thing marciano did was find a way to win, and the rocks ability to absorb punishment would see him through floyds early high tempoed left hook fest to ko floyd around 8 or 9.
floyd fans cant even argue that patterson was bigger than the rock unlike say lennox lewis fans could claim.
walcott did land a good left hook, and put the rock down for the first time in his career but far from being shocked, hurt or groggy marciano was up straight away and showed no ill effects, in fact within seconds he was back into his normal groove trading shots.
floyd wasnt renowned for his punch resistance and his hypothetical opponent has been immortilised for his brutal style.
there`s only one winner imo.

[marcianofan]

I think it's a little insane to try and say anybody had a tougher chin than Marciano. I mean unless you're going to have fighters line up and get hit by baseball bats as a means of comparison, I don't think you can do any better than Rocky. I'm sure some of the aforementioned were comparable, but it would be pure conjecture to try and pick the best among fighters with such vast experience who have frankly never been fazed (although it should be noted that Cobb did suffer a 1st round KO against Dee Collier once). I personally do not believe that there has ever been a fighter who could knock Marciano out. Even with the vicous blow Walcott hit him with (and yes, it was vicious), he bounced back with renewed fire and actually looked stronger. Conversely, I think Marciano's punching power was at least the equal of any fighter, present day included. His KO punch in the Walcott fight was the single most spectacular blow I've ever seen. I do think Marciano was the single most dominant fighter of all time, although I also don't believe he could reliably beat Lennox Lewis, given the size mismatch (although I think one good shot could potentially do the job).
As for a Patterson fight, I think even at his age, Rocky would have won 9 of 10 times. The only chance Patterson would have would be if Rocky's injury troubles hampered him or his training to a severe degree, or if Patterson managed to avoid a KO (unlikely in my mind), he could probably win on points.

[dan1030]

Marciano has always been--and will always be--a tough guy to rate as an all-timer. The simple fact of the matter is (and I say this as a Marciano fan myself) the best fighters he ever faced were current or ex-light heavyweights. Charles was certainly at his most dominant at the lower wieght, and Walcott probably was too. Did he ever fight a good fighter who was over 200 lbs? Louis was WAY past his prime by then, and these other guys (as well as LaStarza) were 180s and 190s. My point is that it's not really possible to say how Rocky's power--which was undeniably great--would effect bigger guys, or how his chin would stand up to bigger hitters.
I do think Rocky would likely have taken Patterson, though.

[Marciano Frazier]

Marciano has always been--and will always be--a tough guy to rate as an all-timer. The simple fact of the matter is (and I say this as a Marciano fan myself) the best fighters he ever faced were current or ex-light heavyweights. Charles was certainly at his most dominant at the lower wieght, and Walcott probably was too. Did he ever fight a good fighter who was over 200 lbs? Louis was WAY past his prime by then, and these other guys (as well as LaStarza) were 180s and 190s. My point is that it's not really possible to say how Rocky's power--which was undeniably great--would effect bigger guys, or how his chin would stand up to bigger hitters.
I do think Rocky would likely have taken Patterson, though.

Even if Marciano's opposition was small and largely former light heavyweights, Patterson fits that mold perfectly. He was again a 180s or 190s fighter in weight who had moved up from light heavyweight.

And while I agree Marciano's best opponents were generally way on the smaller side, some of your assessment is pretty ignorant. Walcott was at his most dominant at light heavyweight? Where did that come from? Walcott only had a few fights below heavyweight, and that was because he turned pro at the age of 16. By the time he was fully grown, he was a full-fledged and very natural heavyweight. Do you honestly think Walcott's prime was when he was a youth being beaten up by guys like Abe Simon and Tiger Jack Fox? No, Jersey Joe was a late bloomer, and a very natural heavyweight.

Did Marciano ever fight a good fighter over 200 lbs.? Don Cockel was a good contender coming off some major wins, 4 years younger than Marciano, and he weighed a pudgy 205. Louis was of course well past his prime when he faced Marciano, but he was still a dangerous opponent who was coming off 7 straight wins, some of those against contenders.

[7rounds]

Patterson never faced. Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley in their primes and Nino Valdez. This 3 guys would had knock him out.

[KOJOE90]

Patterson never faced. Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley in their primes and Nino Valdez. This 3 guys would had knock him out.

I think that had more to do with Cus than Floyd to be fair to the former Champ.

[wq2211]

What Marcianos so called weak because he got knocked down by Jersey Joe?!!?? Is this a joke!? He was down for 3 seconds and Joe Walcott is very underatted! He was a really good fighter! He beat Joe Louis that first time they fought and knocked Joe down like 5 times! Marciano weak? pffftt

---Will