The ability to take a punch, or not!

[Chambers2]

If you watch McCall when he took a pounding from Lewis, you will notice that his bull-like neck stops his head being swung around on it's axis when he takes the shots. He is blasted across the ring at points, but his massive neck muscles transmit the force to his shoulders and through the body.

I played a fair bit of rugby as a kid, at hooker, which built my neck up, I like to think I had a solid chin, maybe it helped

I played hooker as a kid......... for one scrum, that was more than enough

[WildWaylon]

People get knocked out being hit on the side of the jaw or on the temple as well as the chin. A good hard rabbit punch can do the job as well, so maybe its just the brain rattling inside the skull. As we are all a bit different from each other, some can recover from this shock to the brain better than others. When you think about it boxing is pretty dangerous with the brain being jolted thousands of times in a fighters career from hooks and jabs, never mind the flush shots that put you over. They certainly earn their money with pain and cuts and grueling training and never knowing if they may suffer brain damage. Its a hard way to make a living and only a few make the really big money.

Rabbit punches are banned, because the brain stem is highly sensitive to trauma, there are masses of nerve bundles near the surface of the neck, where it joins the brain, and it's easy to damage it and render someone unconscious.

The brain rattling inside the skulls rarely produces unconsciousness, the brain has no nerve endings to feel pain, which is why often fighters feel nothing when the brain is injured until there is a large swelling. Brain injury is cumulative, and it's areas of scarring and cell necrosis which cause the permanent damage fighters exhibit after they retire.

Its a shame you didnt join the thread earlier James, most of us were just stabbing in the dark with various theories. :P

[ALI]

Knockouts are caused either by compression, or torsion of the spinal column, which causes a shock to the nervous system, or a concussion caused by accelleration of the brain within the cranium. The other factor is temple shots which are the location of a large nerve bundle much like the solar plexus.

A thick jaw will dampen the shock waves which travel through the jaw to the cranium, and a thick neck will prevent the torsion or compression of the neck (torsion is from hooks and straight shots, compression from uppercuts).

Of all the factors I've seen over the years of watching boxing, a thick and short neck seems to be the main component, think of all the fighters who had cast iron chins, McCall, Tyson, Hagler, they are the prototype.

I think fighters with long necks tend to be more susceptible especially to shots on the top of the head, which bend the neck at an acute angle. The shorter and thicker the neck muscles, the harder it is to produce this effect.

I know that Jonny Owen had an unusually thick jaw bone, but a very thin eggshell like skull, which is why he was able to take big shots, but they produced so much damage to his brain.

Very insightful posts James, made for interesting reading. Have you studied sports science or something? Where would you gain such knowledge?

[Scrap]

This might be of interest, All the fighters mentioned with good chins had Oral [ Head ] stability all Boxed with there Chins in not down. The skull and there Coxxyx the centre of gravity were in line. making them visually aware at all times. The problem with site is what you see is the past, its the interpretation and expierence of the last movement you saw can cause the problem if you dont guess right DD . Condition plays a role with site, they work primary with Oxygen. Boxers who Box with there Chins down stop there Dyaphram from working as it should by up to 50%. Hope this Helped

[jamesmcdonnell]

Knockouts are caused either by compression, or torsion of the spinal column, which causes a shock to the nervous system, or a concussion caused by accelleration of the brain within the cranium. The other factor is temple shots which are the location of a large nerve bundle much like the solar plexus.

A thick jaw will dampen the shock waves which travel through the jaw to the cranium, and a thick neck will prevent the torsion or compression of the neck (torsion is from hooks and straight shots, compression from uppercuts).

Of all the factors I've seen over the years of watching boxing, a thick and short neck seems to be the main component, think of all the fighters who had cast iron chins, McCall, Tyson, Hagler, they are the prototype.

I think fighters with long necks tend to be more susceptible especially to shots on the top of the head, which bend the neck at an acute angle. The shorter and thicker the neck muscles, the harder it is to produce this effect.

I know that Jonny Owen had an unusually thick jaw bone, but a very thin eggshell like skull, which is why he was able to take big shots, but they produced so much damage to his brain.

Very insightful posts James, made for interesting reading. Have you studied sports science or something? Where would you gain such knowledge?

Read some stuff I found online about injuries in boxing, and my own observations. Some of it is simple physics. Other is simple biology, like the temple stuff, like the solar plexus, the temple has a big bundle of nerves running through it, and very little in the way of padding.

It also seems common sense that if your neck is very thick and muscular as well as short, it is going to be hard to bend - think of the difference between trying to bend a thick short length of rope, or a longer and/or thinner one.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Just how much do we know about the scientific aspect of a person's ability to take a shot? What exactly is it that differs between one man to the next?

On one hand, you have Herbie Hide, who my granny could probably bowl over with a left jab if timed right. Then, on the other, you have someone like Hollyfield, who could be hit flush on with a sledgehammer and still stay upright.

Probably Herbie is not the best example to use here as i believe half of his problems are mental (Klitscko KO'd him with a phantom shot after all). But, given the mind is right and the will is there, why is it that some fighters can take a shot and others (through no fault of their own) simply cannot.

Can anyone refer me to any scientific research on this subject. It would make for interesting reading.

The book Four Kings also mentions that Marvin Hagler had an abnormally thick skull when he was given a brain scan

That's interesting. Hagler himself always said he refused to be hurt, but it's more likely that he simply never felt that jangle which precded being knocked out because he had a neck like a bull, massive shoulders, and a head like a boulder....!

The thick skull must damped the shockwave of the blow, though I'd have thought that if you didn't have the strong neck to go with it, then it could in fact cause more harm than good.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Actually, the bit about the temple is wrong, just checked it. I would have to guess the temple is susceptible because that portion of the skull is thinner and there's little padding over it, maybe that's why it produces a lot of KO's. Or perhaps just because it is quite high up on the head.

[Counter-puncher]

Actually, the bit about the temple is wrong, just checked it. I would have to guess the temple is susceptible because that portion of the skull is thinner and there's little padding over it, maybe that's why it produces a lot of KO's. Or perhaps just because it is quite high up on the head.

i think i have read somewhere that is it

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

A thick strong neck, a very strong upper and lower back and strong legs will all help take a punch. Look at relatively weak chinned guys they usually have weak skinny legs and long thin necks - Wlad, Hearns, 'Insert tall rangy gangly type'. Then look at iron chins - Holyfield, Tyson (both have huge necks)

Also fighters who have their chin in their air versus a tucked chin will give drastically different abilities to take a punch, so will a compact body versus an upright standing body. Look at Ali backing up with his chin in the air against Cooper, then tucked up tight against the ropes getting smashed by Foreman/Shavers.

Then there are men with thicker skulls/jaws, so the bone is simply more durable

Then their are fighters who seem to take shots and have a good chin but manage to roll the punches and not get hit flush. If anyone takes enough shots flush they'll get KO'd

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Rabbit punches are banned, because the brain stem is highly sensitive to trauma, there are masses of nerve bundles near the surface of the neck, where it joins the brain, and it's easy to damage it and render someone unconscious..

I always wondered if BEnn's viscous and continual rabbit punches contributed to McCellan's condition

[rob h]

In response to mike john.

All three Kray brothers were Proffesional Boxers, Reg having the most talent. People believed he could have gone far if he didn't quit the ring.

Heres his record: http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

[jamesmcdonnell]

A thick strong neck, a very strong upper and lower back and strong legs will all help take a punch. Look at relatively weak chinned guys they usually have weak skinny legs and long thin necks - Wlad, Hearns, 'Insert tall rangy gangly type'. Then look at iron chins - Holyfield, Tyson (both have huge necks)

Also fighters who have their chin in their air versus a tucked chin will give drastically different abilities to take a punch, so will a compact body versus an upright standing body. Look at Ali backing up with his chin in the air against Cooper, then tucked up tight against the ropes getting smashed by Foreman/Shavers.

Then there are men with thicker skulls/jaws, so the bone is simply more durable

Then their are fighters who seem to take shots and have a good chin but manage to roll the punches and not get hit flush. If anyone takes enough shots flush they'll get KO'd

Except Oliver McCall, who seems utterly impervious - no wonder though, look at the size of his bloody jawbone.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Rabbit punches are banned, because the brain stem is highly sensitive to trauma, there are masses of nerve bundles near the surface of the neck, where it joins the brain, and it's easy to damage it and render someone unconscious..

I always wondered if BEnn's viscous and continual rabbit punches contributed to McCellan's condition

It certainly won't help - the back of the neck is a very dangerous place to hit someone. That's why a chop to the neck is so effective at rendering people unconscious.

[stujones]

We often talk about a fighter losing their punch resistance, but can a punch resistance improve also with age. I'm just remembering old Tommy Morrison getting whalloped by Mercer and Bent and then surviving big bombs vs Lewis and Mercer.

Barrera and Oscar De La Hoya were in the early career considered chinny. Indeed on a respected US forum where I was posting on at the time - alot of US fight fans said the Barrera would be winning against Hamed, but then predicted Hamed to land something to crack his china chin.

I'm just wondering when Khan, who physiologically has the "look" of a chinny fighter, gets his man strength - will he be more durable. Are people to quick to write him off.

[Coco]

Maybe they are more comfortable at the weigh too

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

A thick strong neck, a very strong upper and lower back and strong legs will all help take a punch. Look at relatively weak chinned guys they usually have weak skinny legs and long thin necks - Wlad, Hearns, 'Insert tall rangy gangly type'. Then look at iron chins - Holyfield, Tyson (both have huge necks)

Also fighters who have their chin in their air versus a tucked chin will give drastically different abilities to take a punch, so will a compact body versus an upright standing body. Look at Ali backing up with his chin in the air against Cooper, then tucked up tight against the ropes getting smashed by Foreman/Shavers.

Then there are men with thicker skulls/jaws, so the bone is simply more durable

Then their are fighters who seem to take shots and have a good chin but manage to roll the punches and not get hit flush. If anyone takes enough shots flush they'll get KO'd

Except Oliver McCall, who seems utterly impervious - no wonder though, look at the size of his bloody jawbone.

I seem to remember the back of his neck and his upper and lower back being built like a tank too. I do question if McCall's chin is a little overrated, not saying it isn't a hell of a chin but Lennox was understandably gun shy and apart from that he hasn't been in with the biggest punches outside of Bruno who visibly hurt Oliver and put him in a shell.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

We often talk about a fighter losing their punch resistance, but can a punch resistance improve also with age. I'm just remembering old Tommy Morrison getting whalloped by Mercer and Bent and then surviving big bombs vs Lewis and Mercer.

Barrera and Oscar De La Hoya were in the early career considered chinny. Indeed on a respected US forum where I was posting on at the time - alot of US fight fans said the Barrera would be winning against Hamed, but then predicted Hamed to land something to crack his china chin.

I'm just wondering when Khan, who physiologically has the "look" of a chinny fighter, gets his man strength - will he be more durable. Are people to quick to write him off.

I think as a fighter reaches his mid to late 20s he does get that man strength than solidifies his chin, they also tend to fight smarter. Judahs chin was supposed to be pure glass but it held up well against Mayweather, Cotto, Clottey.

[King Tubby]

Just how much do we know about the scientific aspect of a person's ability to take a shot? What exactly is it that differs between one man to the next?

On one hand, you have Herbie Hide, who my granny could probably bowl over with a left jab if timed right. Then, on the other, you have someone like Hollyfield, who could be hit flush on with a sledgehammer and still stay upright.

Probably Herbie is not the best example to use here as i believe half of his problems are mental (Klitscko KO'd him with a phantom shot after all). But, given the mind is right and the will is there, why is it that some fighters can take a shot and others (through no fault of their own) simply cannot.

Can anyone refer me to any scientific research on this subject. It would make for interesting reading.

The book Four Kings also mentions that Marvin Hagler had an abnormally thick skull when he was given a brain scan

Is that a good book mate? I've got some book tokens to spend.

[funso banjo baby]

its to do with the neck and the ankles

david price tiny head and neck KO'd

Audley ... painfully thin ankles Ko'd

[Dioufy]

But Margarito has a thin neck, legs, and I assume, ankles, but I reckon he's got the best chin in the business.

[sockdolager]

A lot of it has to do with the ability to sense or see punches coming. That micro second of awareness might be the difference between getting hit flush and just getting hit as they begin to roll with it. That is for some fighters, the short and thick neck helps as well.

[tonyevs]

Its just one of lifes mysteries ..

A guy when he`s younger may be able to take a real whack and not budge .. then a few years down the line the same punch may send him to sleep .. his neck muscles, jaw bone or whatever else has been put foreward is still the same .. the ability is just gone :(

Being able to take a punch is as big a mystery as those who possess the KO punch .. you can improve each through technique .. but it won`t be the same as the guy who naturally has it.