Lets imagine Ayala never went to jail and won the title from Davey Moore in 1983.
Lets assume that he gave a shot to Muagbi in early 1984, with Mugabi coming off his one round win over Curtis Parker.
Lets assume it was for the WBA title and scheduled for 15 rounds.
Lets assume both fighters weigh 154.
Who wins, and why?
Tony Ayala jnr v John Mugabi Fantasy Fight.
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knockout artist
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Rocky Balboa
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Two good fighters have been matched for this fantasy match-up.
IMO, this is a classic case of punch-for-punch, power vs power, that type of contest.
However, I do feel Mugabi was the stronger, more powerful man. Tony Ayala JR, I feel, was better at smothering and keeping up real close to his opponents than Mugabi was.
I prefer John Mugabi to Tony Ayala - Mugabi fought some good fighters, and I know Tony's career was cut short because of his prison term, but I feel it was only a mtter of time before he would have lost - I do not mean to sound really negative, but that is my opinion. I am sure there was talk of Ayala challenging Marvin Hagler at middleweight - Hagler would have beaten him, no question.
Anyway, back to Ayala-Mugabi, this one does not go more than two rounds. I reckon Mugabi gets the job done with a KO or TKO in two rounds. IMO, John Mugabi was stonger, smarter and more powerful than Ayala at 154lbs. Mugabi was a VERY BIG for 154lbs, and I do not know how he made the weight - he must have struggled at times?
IMO, this is a classic case of punch-for-punch, power vs power, that type of contest.
However, I do feel Mugabi was the stronger, more powerful man. Tony Ayala JR, I feel, was better at smothering and keeping up real close to his opponents than Mugabi was.
I prefer John Mugabi to Tony Ayala - Mugabi fought some good fighters, and I know Tony's career was cut short because of his prison term, but I feel it was only a mtter of time before he would have lost - I do not mean to sound really negative, but that is my opinion. I am sure there was talk of Ayala challenging Marvin Hagler at middleweight - Hagler would have beaten him, no question.
Anyway, back to Ayala-Mugabi, this one does not go more than two rounds. I reckon Mugabi gets the job done with a KO or TKO in two rounds. IMO, John Mugabi was stonger, smarter and more powerful than Ayala at 154lbs. Mugabi was a VERY BIG for 154lbs, and I do not know how he made the weight - he must have struggled at times?
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knockout artist
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Yeah, Mugabi always struggled to make 154, he had to be very disciplined, but this was a quality he did not possess in abundance.
He's listed as 5'8" but he always appeared much taller to me. He had a 74" reach, wheras Ayala was 5'7" and had a 67" reach. They say reach doesnt matter when you have two fighters like this but I think it would be a key to the fight. Mugabi could land his bombs while staying away from Ayala's shots.
Mugabi always did well against guys who stood and traded with him, wheras Ayala was more suited to backing people up. Sure Ayala beat plenty of guys with longer reaches, but none of them punched like Mugabi.
You have to look at common apponents. Mugabi iced Curtis Ramsey in one and a fight later Ayala won a 10 round decision over Ramsey. That says a lot to me.
I think Ayala could have turned out to be a better fighter than Mugabi if his career had continued, but at this stage, I reckon he would eat too many right hands. Mugabi in three rounds in a 154 version of Hagler v Hearns.
A great shame it never happened.
He's listed as 5'8" but he always appeared much taller to me. He had a 74" reach, wheras Ayala was 5'7" and had a 67" reach. They say reach doesnt matter when you have two fighters like this but I think it would be a key to the fight. Mugabi could land his bombs while staying away from Ayala's shots.
Mugabi always did well against guys who stood and traded with him, wheras Ayala was more suited to backing people up. Sure Ayala beat plenty of guys with longer reaches, but none of them punched like Mugabi.
You have to look at common apponents. Mugabi iced Curtis Ramsey in one and a fight later Ayala won a 10 round decision over Ramsey. That says a lot to me.
I think Ayala could have turned out to be a better fighter than Mugabi if his career had continued, but at this stage, I reckon he would eat too many right hands. Mugabi in three rounds in a 154 version of Hagler v Hearns.
A great shame it never happened.
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overhand_right
- Heavyweight
the so-called beast quit when guys stood up to him & took his power. ayala was one sick, tough hard ass bastard. ayala was still dangerous fighter pushing 40 after a 17 yr prison term, which gives an indication of how much must've been in the tank at a young age. what a waste of talent. a 13 yr old ayala was beating down world champ pipino cuevas in the gym. ayala wouldve torn apart a quitter like mugabi. who did the beast ever really beat anyway?
who remembers mugabi/duane thomas? jeez what a pussy!
who remembers mugabi/duane thomas? jeez what a pussy!
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Mugabi got thumbed against Thomas.overhand_right wrote:the so-called beast quit when guys stood up to him & took his power. ayala was one sick, tough hard ass bastard. ayala was still dangerous fighter pushing 40 after a 17 yr prison term, which gives an indication of how much must've been in the tank at a young age. what a waste of talent. a 13 yr old ayala was beating down world champ pipino cuevas in the gym. ayala wouldve torn apart a quitter like mugabi. who did the beast ever really beat anyway?
who remembers mugabi/duane thomas? jeez what a pussy!
Ayala was Fresh at 37 cause he hadnt fought for 17 years.
Heart wouldnt have come into it. Mugabi would have KO'd him.
What was Ayala's best win? Carlos Herrera? Big deal.
I like Ayala and think he could have been great. Mugabi was better than you give him credit for.
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overhand_right
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fresh? 17 years in solitary confinement with zero access to boxing equipment & training, and your saying this was to ayalas benefit?
ayala was never knocked out. mugabi was a good fighter, real good at beating lesser guys up, but when he stepped up he lost in real fights. he got thumbed v duane thomas, big deal. happened all the time in the 80s, countlkess big fights. the top level fighters though didnt lay over the ropes with their back to their opponents, refusing to continue.
john beat rene jacquot on an ankle injury to win his title then got blown out in 1 rd by terry norris. ONE rd!!!
even an ancient tony ayala hung tough with a fellow tough hard ass bastard like yory boy campas. no way does john frickin mugabi out-tough tony ayala jr.
again i remind you, a THIRTEEN yr old tony ayala was putting a whipping on then world champion pipino cuevas in the gym. thats how freakishly tough ayala was. ayala was a monumental waste of talent, john mugabi went as far as he could ever go.
ayala was never knocked out. mugabi was a good fighter, real good at beating lesser guys up, but when he stepped up he lost in real fights. he got thumbed v duane thomas, big deal. happened all the time in the 80s, countlkess big fights. the top level fighters though didnt lay over the ropes with their back to their opponents, refusing to continue.
john beat rene jacquot on an ankle injury to win his title then got blown out in 1 rd by terry norris. ONE rd!!!
even an ancient tony ayala hung tough with a fellow tough hard ass bastard like yory boy campas. no way does john frickin mugabi out-tough tony ayala jr.
again i remind you, a THIRTEEN yr old tony ayala was putting a whipping on then world champion pipino cuevas in the gym. thats how freakishly tough ayala was. ayala was a monumental waste of talent, john mugabi went as far as he could ever go.
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MightyWarrior
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Mugabi went 11 hard rounds with Hagler, there was no quit in him there.
And a thumb rammed into your eye at full force is enough to make anyone think twice about carrying on. He probably found himself suddenly blinded in one eye, and it must've felt like his eyeball had been burst.
Unfair to label him a quitter on that basis.
Like everyone else, I was looking forward to seeing Ayala in with the likes of Duran - what a fight that would've been too.
As for a showdown with Mugabi - I've no real idea how that would've turned out. Think it would've been a pick em fight at the time. Bombs away from round one.
Mugabi took no prisoners - I think he would've come out swinging and maybe staggered Ayala a few times, maybe even have dropped him.
But Ayala was as vicious as they come. I think he might have bobbed and weaved his way out of trouble, then come back with some massive shots of his own.
Ayala KO 6.......................maybe
And a thumb rammed into your eye at full force is enough to make anyone think twice about carrying on. He probably found himself suddenly blinded in one eye, and it must've felt like his eyeball had been burst.
Unfair to label him a quitter on that basis.
Like everyone else, I was looking forward to seeing Ayala in with the likes of Duran - what a fight that would've been too.
As for a showdown with Mugabi - I've no real idea how that would've turned out. Think it would've been a pick em fight at the time. Bombs away from round one.
Mugabi took no prisoners - I think he would've come out swinging and maybe staggered Ayala a few times, maybe even have dropped him.
But Ayala was as vicious as they come. I think he might have bobbed and weaved his way out of trouble, then come back with some massive shots of his own.
Ayala KO 6.......................maybe
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knockout artist
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I think you are very wrong. Of course Ayala wasted his talent. But so did Mugabi, late nights booze, women, smoking junk food, you name it he did it. He just lived for the moment. Yes, Mugabi got stopped by Norris, but he was a shell of the fighter I was referring to in this thread.overhand_right wrote:fresh? 17 years in solitary confinement with zero access to boxing equipment & training, and your saying this was to ayalas benefit?
ayala was never knocked out. mugabi was a good fighter, real good at beating lesser guys up, but when he stepped up he lost in real fights. he got thumbed v duane thomas, big deal. happened all the time in the 80s, countlkess big fights. the top level fighters though didnt lay over the ropes with their back to their opponents, refusing to continue.
john beat rene jacquot on an ankle injury to win his title then got blown out in 1 rd by terry norris. ONE rd!!!
even an ancient tony ayala hung tough with a fellow tough hard ass bastard like yory boy campas. no way does john frickin mugabi out-tough tony ayala jr.
again i remind you, a THIRTEEN yr old tony ayala was putting a whipping on then world champion pipino cuevas in the gym. thats how freakishly tough ayala was. ayala was a monumental waste of talent, john mugabi went as far as he could ever go.
You call Mugabi a quitter.
AYALA QUIT ON HIS STOOL AGAINST CAMPAS.
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overhand_right
- Heavyweight
ayala was an old, old man trying to fight a young hard skulled tough bastard. it means nothing.
john mugabi certainly became a 'shell' bizarelly quickly if thats what he was v terry norris. a shell of the man who was pathetic v duane thomas. i know mugabi was a good fighter, but not that good. ayala would tear him up.
john mugabi certainly became a 'shell' bizarelly quickly if thats what he was v terry norris. a shell of the man who was pathetic v duane thomas. i know mugabi was a good fighter, but not that good. ayala would tear him up.
The John Mugabi I saw against Hagler was no quitter. A fight with Ayala in 1984, that's a natural middleweight against a natural welterweight, and I would have to go with the bigger man.
IMO, Ayala wouldn't have lasted long even if he had managed to avoid raping women. He was on a fast track to fighting guys like Mugabi, Hagler, Duran, Hearns--and when all was said and done, I think he would have ended up as the Fernando Vargas of his generation, thrown in against too many tough guys when he was too young.
IMO, Ayala wouldn't have lasted long even if he had managed to avoid raping women. He was on a fast track to fighting guys like Mugabi, Hagler, Duran, Hearns--and when all was said and done, I think he would have ended up as the Fernando Vargas of his generation, thrown in against too many tough guys when he was too young.
I agree that the Mugabi who fought Hagler was full of heart; he gave Hagler a rough time early in the fight and hung tough while taking a pounding in the last few rounds. After that fight Mugabi was never the same Beast, but if he fought Ayala in 1984, I think we might have seen the bully in Ayala give in if he doesn't win early. The older Ayala is a different man than the punk of 1984, and I think Mugabi would have weathered an early storm and won by TKO around the seventh or eighth round.
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Nice to see some sense being written on this thread.jsc1973 wrote:The John Mugabi I saw against Hagler was no quitter. A fight with Ayala in 1984, that's a natural middleweight against a natural welterweight, and I would have to go with the bigger man.
IMO, Ayala wouldn't have lasted long even if he had managed to avoid raping women. He was on a fast track to fighting guys like Mugabi, Hagler, Duran, Hearns--and when all was said and done, I think he would have ended up as the Fernando Vargas of his generation, thrown in against too many tough guys when he was too young.
I think people forget just how fast a starter Mugabi was. IMO he was the fastest starter of any fighter in Boxing History.
I think Muagbi would have iced him in a couple of rounds. He loved people who stood and traded with him.