Classic American West Coast Boxing

[kikibalt]

Pop Hanley tells Rick . . ."I'm gunna kick your arse!"

[kikibalt]

Boxing still has a fighting chance


Jae C. Hong / Associated Press
Oscar De La Hoya remains the biggest name in fighting, whether it’s mixed martial arts or traditional boxing.
Mixed martial arts is rapidly growing, but the money generated by top-name boxers still dwarfs their rival.

By Kevin Baxter and Lance Pugmire

Reporting from Las Vegas -- Billy Baxter has won -- and lost -- millions wagering on everything from boxing and billiards to football and poker.

Yet there is one thing the 68-year-old Baxter, a member of the Poker Hall of Fame, won't wager on: mixed martial arts, the rapidly growing combat sport that encompasses a variety of fighting techniques.

However, if Baxter and other traditional gamblers are betting that MMA is a fad that will go away, they might lose their shirts. "I can see MMA supplanting boxing," says Jay Rood, director of the MGM/Mirage Race and Sports Book. "I can see an MMA fight being one of the biggest gates in Vegas history."

But that won't happen immediately, and certainly not this Saturday when Oscar De La Hoya and Manny Pacquiao meet in a welterweight boxing match that will generate about $17.5 million in live-gate revenue in Las Vegas, plus an estimated 1.5 million pay-per-view buys worth more than $80 million.

Although MMA is growing fast, the money generated by big boxing matches still dwarfs their combat sport rival.


The De La Hoya-Floyd Mayweather fight in May 2007 produced $18.5 million in Las Vegas gate receipts, plus 2.4 million pay-per-view sales worth $134.4 million, both records for the sport's most popular boxer. Meanwhile, the high-water mark for MMA was the Chuck Liddell vs. Tito Ortiz bout in December 2006, with Las Vegas gate receipts of $5.4 million and an estimated 1.05 million pay-per-view buys worth about $42 million.

And given the demographic differences between the two sports' fan bases, major boxing matches draw older, more established patrons who stay at the major hotels and spend more freely, boosting gaming revenue by as much as 50% on the weekend of the fight. MMA events, on the other hand, draw a younger, more frugal crowd that has a much smaller impact on the local economy.

"The MMA fan may come to the property only for the fights, a few beers and a meal at one of the restaurants," says Rood, whose MGM Grand is staging the De La Hoya-Pacquiao fight as well as three Ultimate Fighting Championship events this fall.

"The difference in crowds is a natural thing," he says. "Boxing is older, more established with more disposable income. As MMA grows the sport, they'll grow that income too."

Now with the 35-year-old De La Hoya closing in on retirement, boxing is being forced to contemplate a future without its biggest draw.

"Ricky Hatton, Floyd Mayweather, Oscar De La Hoya right now are carrying boxing," says Joey Odessa, an offshore bookmaking consultant, while lumping De La Hoya in with a boxer who's retired (Mayweather) and another who's from England. "Other than that, mixed martial arts, the biggest shows, can hold its own against them all."

Neither sports books nor the Nevada State Gaming Commission would release figures on the amounts wagered on boxing or MMA bouts, but they agree that betting on combat sports is mushrooming while boxing is not.

Frank Streshley, senior research analyst for the state commission, said overall gaming revenue in Las Vegas is down 6% compared with last year, but gambling for non-major sports, which includes boxing and MMA, are up. "The people out at the sports books I talked to said the big growth has been in ultimate fighting," he said.

The growth trend favors MMA. The 10 largest live gates for MMA events in Nevada have all taken place in the last three years, while only three of the top 10 boxing events took place in that same period, according to the state athletic commission.

Odessa, who has been tracking MMA wagering since 2000, said his figures show action on combat fighting has climbed about 30% from a year ago. "The success that it's had, though, during these tough times is amazing," he said

Bob Arum, co-promoter of the De La Hoya-Pacquiao fight, concedes the numbers but said it's like comparing apples and oranges.

A recent survey of fans purchasing pay-per-view events for boxing and MMA, Arum says, found just 4% of viewers watched both, dispelling the notion that one sport's gain is another's loss. "Most boxing fans won't watch MMA. And most MMA fans won't watch boxing," Arum says. "It's a different audience."

Although both sports are personality-driven, few boxers other than De La Hoya are household names today, something Arum blames on the sport's disappearance from "free" TV. Conversely, the MMA's top series, "The Ultimate Fighter," will be featured at least 38 times this month alone on Spike, a cable network aimed at young male viewers.

Among the young Las Vegas crowd watching Brock Lesnar defeat Randy Couture for the Ultimate Fighting Championship heavyweight title last month were twentysomething friends Adam Krajewski and Mark Hanza, who spent more than $650 each to attend the fight.

For them, part of the MMA's allure was the approachability of the fighters.

"Couture's a guy you could be neighbors with," Hanza said of the former UFC champion, who earned just $250,000 for the Lesnar bout. De La Hoya, by comparison, is guaranteed about $20 million for his fight Saturday.

Nearby, 29-year-old Kirk Porter agreed. An MMA fighter, he said, "isn't as untouchable as the boxer. The big fights are nothing but a marketing machine."

Baxter, the veteran gambler, is open to new ideas and he may soon be interested in betting on MMA bouts, he says. Gambling, after all, is all about identifying trends and exploiting them.

"I just started watching it," Baxter says of MMA. "It's faddish right now. And it may become the biggest thing ever invented.

"That can theoretically happen. You've got to give it some time."

Baxter and Pugmire are Times staff writers.

[kikibalt]

.... :(

[kikibalt]

Boxing still has a fighting chance


Jae C. Hong / Associated Press
Oscar De La Hoya remains the biggest name in fighting, whether it’s mixed martial arts or traditional boxing.
Mixed martial arts is rapidly growing, but the money generated by top-name boxers still dwarfs their rival.

By Kevin Baxter and Lance Pugmire

Reporting from Las Vegas -- Billy Baxter has won -- and lost -- millions wagering on everything from boxing and billiards to football and poker.

Yet there is one thing the 68-year-old Baxter, a member of the Poker Hall of Fame, won't wager on: mixed martial arts, the rapidly growing combat sport that encompasses a variety of fighting techniques.

However, if Baxter and other traditional gamblers are betting that MMA is a fad that will go away, they might lose their shirts. "I can see MMA supplanting boxing," says Jay Rood, director of the MGM/Mirage Race and Sports Book. "I can see an MMA fight being one of the biggest gates in Vegas history."

But that won't happen immediately, and certainly not this Saturday when Oscar De La Hoya and Manny Pacquiao meet in a welterweight boxing match that will generate about $17.5 million in live-gate revenue in Las Vegas, plus an estimated 1.5 million pay-per-view buys worth more than $80 million.

Although MMA is growing fast, the money generated by big boxing matches still dwarfs their combat sport rival.


The De La Hoya-Floyd Mayweather fight in May 2007 produced $18.5 million in Las Vegas gate receipts, plus 2.4 million pay-per-view sales worth $134.4 million, both records for the sport's most popular boxer. Meanwhile, the high-water mark for MMA was the Chuck Liddell vs. Tito Ortiz bout in December 2006, with Las Vegas gate receipts of $5.4 million and an estimated 1.05 million pay-per-view buys worth about $42 million.

And given the demographic differences between the two sports' fan bases, major boxing matches draw older, more established patrons who stay at the major hotels and spend more freely, boosting gaming revenue by as much as 50% on the weekend of the fight. MMA events, on the other hand, draw a younger, more frugal crowd that has a much smaller impact on the local economy.

"The MMA fan may come to the property only for the fights, a few beers and a meal at one of the restaurants," says Rood, whose MGM Grand is staging the De La Hoya-Pacquiao fight as well as three Ultimate Fighting Championship events this fall.

"The difference in crowds is a natural thing," he says. "Boxing is older, more established with more disposable income. As MMA grows the sport, they'll grow that income too."

Now with the 35-year-old De La Hoya closing in on retirement, boxing is being forced to contemplate a future without its biggest draw.

"Ricky Hatton, Floyd Mayweather, Oscar De La Hoya right now are carrying boxing," says Joey Odessa, an offshore bookmaking consultant, while lumping De La Hoya in with a boxer who's retired (Mayweather) and another who's from England. "Other than that, mixed martial arts, the biggest shows, can hold its own against them all."

Neither sports books nor the Nevada State Gaming Commission would release figures on the amounts wagered on boxing or MMA bouts, but they agree that betting on combat sports is mushrooming while boxing is not.

Frank Streshley, senior research analyst for the state commission, said overall gaming revenue in Las Vegas is down 6% compared with last year, but gambling for non-major sports, which includes boxing and MMA, are up. "The people out at the sports books I talked to said the big growth has been in ultimate fighting," he said.

The growth trend favors MMA. The 10 largest live gates for MMA events in Nevada have all taken place in the last three years, while only three of the top 10 boxing events took place in that same period, according to the state athletic commission.

Odessa, who has been tracking MMA wagering since 2000, said his figures show action on combat fighting has climbed about 30% from a year ago. "The success that it's had, though, during these tough times is amazing," he said

Bob Arum, co-promoter of the De La Hoya-Pacquiao fight, concedes the numbers but said it's like comparing apples and oranges.

A recent survey of fans purchasing pay-per-view events for boxing and MMA, Arum says, found just 4% of viewers watched both, dispelling the notion that one sport's gain is another's loss. "Most boxing fans won't watch MMA. And most MMA fans won't watch boxing," Arum says. "It's a different audience."

Although both sports are personality-driven, few boxers other than De La Hoya are household names today, something Arum blames on the sport's disappearance from "free" TV. Conversely, the MMA's top series, "The Ultimate Fighter," will be featured at least 38 times this month alone on Spike, a cable network aimed at young male viewers.

Among the young Las Vegas crowd watching Brock Lesnar defeat Randy Couture for the Ultimate Fighting Championship heavyweight title last month were twentysomething friends Adam Krajewski and Mark Hanza, who spent more than $650 each to attend the fight.

For them, part of the MMA's allure was the approachability of the fighters.

"Couture's a guy you could be neighbors with," Hanza said of the former UFC champion, who earned just $250,000 for the Lesnar bout. De La Hoya, by comparison, is guaranteed about $20 million for his fight Saturday.

Nearby, 29-year-old Kirk Porter agreed. An MMA fighter, he said, "isn't as untouchable as the boxer. The big fights are nothing but a marketing machine."

Baxter, the veteran gambler, is open to new ideas and he may soon be interested in betting on MMA bouts, he says. Gambling, after all, is all about identifying trends and exploiting them.

"I just started watching it," Baxter says of MMA. "It's faddish right now. And it may become the biggest thing ever invented.

"That can theoretically happen. You've got to give it some time."

Baxter and Pugmire are Times staff writers.

The Billy Baxter mentioned in the this article was Roger Mayweather's manager at the time Tony fought Roger, through a third party he offer me a bet, Tony's purse against Roger's, me not been a betting man, I said hell no....

[kikibalt]

[bennie]

The knives are out for young Amir Khan as he returns to the ring for the first time since Colombia's Breidis Prescott blew him away in 54 seconds in September in Manchester and took away his unbeaten record and dreams of an early world title.
On his own Lancashire soil the 21-year-old Khan suffered a defeat which reminded older boxing fans of the 59-second thumping dished out by Ken Norton on a 38-0 Duane Bobick in a famous heavyweight encounter in New York in the 1970s. Bobick could fight, but Norton jumped on him, hurt him, 'broke' him, mentally. Duane was never the same. This is the worry for Team Khan as the road back begins against 34-year-old Irishman Oisin Fagan in a lightweight 12-rounder in East London on Saturday night.
Khan, 18-1 (14), has trained in the States, away from the stares and even the sneers of his fickle Bolton 'fans' (the same fans who booed him out of the ring after Prescott). He is now with former Los Angeles featherweight pro Freddie "Red" Roach, one of the most celebrated trainers in the sport. Freddie raves about Khan's jab, handspeed, movement and counterpunching ability. He talks about adding strength to Khan's legs, tightening up his defence... It is early days, but Freddie knows how to boost the confidence of a first-beaten fighter.
Training has gone well.
To Fagan, a rugged, aggressive sort who has been stopped only once in five years as a pro: American Isaac Mendoza turned the trick in four rounds in the States in July 2003. The stocky Dubliner went the full 10 rounds with Pittsburgh bad boy and former IBF lightweight champion Paul Spadafora last year, also in the States, and will certainly test Khan's confidence and boxing appetite after the Prescott disaster, although Fagan lacks size, power, speed and subtlety. He will not test Khan's chin. A schoolteacher, Oisin now lives and does much of his fighting in Oklahoma, where he hasn't beaten anyone his pupils couldn't, but occasionally makes his way home for the 'craic' and a few more testing fights. His best win is probably a seven-round stoppage of Blackpool's Jeff Thomas in Dublin in 2006, a man once linked to a Khan fight himself, and he scraped home against Brighton's strong and underrated Chill John in Dublin a year later on an eight-round decision. Fagan will fight to the finish against Khan, make no mistake. He is one of those brave fighters, a fighter one is loathed to 'knock'.
Of course, Fagan's brawling approach will allow Khan to exercise all his natural ability tomorrow. Khan proved how good he can be against short, light-hitting types when he romped to a 12-round decision over Aussie Gairy St Clair in February this year in the same cavernous ExCeL Arena where he faces Fagan. He then wore down Denmark's short, light-hitting Martin Kristjansen in seven rounds in Bolton, before Manchester puncher Michael Gomez, considered 'shot', dropped Khan in five wild and woolly rounds in Birmingham in the summer. Khan got to Gomez in the end with body shots but the fight was surprisingly hard, and next came the rangy, unbeaten Prescott.
Clearly, the superbly built Khan prefers his opponents short and soft-punching. Clearly, he will enjoy Fagan. Clearly, he is still a work in progress. Clearly, he needs to win. Khan eases back into it, lets the punches fly and stops Fagan in eight or nine rounds.

[bennie]

Boxing still has a fighting chance


Jae C. Hong / Associated Press
Oscar De La Hoya remains the biggest name in fighting, whether it’s mixed martial arts or traditional boxing.
Mixed martial arts is rapidly growing, but the money generated by top-name boxers still dwarfs their rival.

By Kevin Baxter and Lance Pugmire

Reporting from Las Vegas -- Billy Baxter has won -- and lost -- millions wagering on everything from boxing and billiards to football and poker.

Yet there is one thing the 68-year-old Baxter, a member of the Poker Hall of Fame, won't wager on: mixed martial arts, the rapidly growing combat sport that encompasses a variety of fighting techniques.

However, if Baxter and other traditional gamblers are betting that MMA is a fad that will go away, they might lose their shirts. "I can see MMA supplanting boxing," says Jay Rood, director of the MGM/Mirage Race and Sports Book. "I can see an MMA fight being one of the biggest gates in Vegas history."

But that won't happen immediately, and certainly not this Saturday when Oscar De La Hoya and Manny Pacquiao meet in a welterweight boxing match that will generate about $17.5 million in live-gate revenue in Las Vegas, plus an estimated 1.5 million pay-per-view buys worth more than $80 million.

Although MMA is growing fast, the money generated by big boxing matches still dwarfs their combat sport rival.


The De La Hoya-Floyd Mayweather fight in May 2007 produced $18.5 million in Las Vegas gate receipts, plus 2.4 million pay-per-view sales worth $134.4 million, both records for the sport's most popular boxer. Meanwhile, the high-water mark for MMA was the Chuck Liddell vs. Tito Ortiz bout in December 2006, with Las Vegas gate receipts of $5.4 million and an estimated 1.05 million pay-per-view buys worth about $42 million.

And given the demographic differences between the two sports' fan bases, major boxing matches draw older, more established patrons who stay at the major hotels and spend more freely, boosting gaming revenue by as much as 50% on the weekend of the fight. MMA events, on the other hand, draw a younger, more frugal crowd that has a much smaller impact on the local economy.

"The MMA fan may come to the property only for the fights, a few beers and a meal at one of the restaurants," says Rood, whose MGM Grand is staging the De La Hoya-Pacquiao fight as well as three Ultimate Fighting Championship events this fall.

"The difference in crowds is a natural thing," he says. "Boxing is older, more established with more disposable income. As MMA grows the sport, they'll grow that income too."

Now with the 35-year-old De La Hoya closing in on retirement, boxing is being forced to contemplate a future without its biggest draw.

"Ricky Hatton, Floyd Mayweather, Oscar De La Hoya right now are carrying boxing," says Joey Odessa, an offshore bookmaking consultant, while lumping De La Hoya in with a boxer who's retired (Mayweather) and another who's from England. "Other than that, mixed martial arts, the biggest shows, can hold its own against them all."

Neither sports books nor the Nevada State Gaming Commission would release figures on the amounts wagered on boxing or MMA bouts, but they agree that betting on combat sports is mushrooming while boxing is not.

Frank Streshley, senior research analyst for the state commission, said overall gaming revenue in Las Vegas is down 6% compared with last year, but gambling for non-major sports, which includes boxing and MMA, are up. "The people out at the sports books I talked to said the big growth has been in ultimate fighting," he said.

The growth trend favors MMA. The 10 largest live gates for MMA events in Nevada have all taken place in the last three years, while only three of the top 10 boxing events took place in that same period, according to the state athletic commission.

Odessa, who has been tracking MMA wagering since 2000, said his figures show action on combat fighting has climbed about 30% from a year ago. "The success that it's had, though, during these tough times is amazing," he said

Bob Arum, co-promoter of the De La Hoya-Pacquiao fight, concedes the numbers but said it's like comparing apples and oranges.

A recent survey of fans purchasing pay-per-view events for boxing and MMA, Arum says, found just 4% of viewers watched both, dispelling the notion that one sport's gain is another's loss. "Most boxing fans won't watch MMA. And most MMA fans won't watch boxing," Arum says. "It's a different audience."

Although both sports are personality-driven, few boxers other than De La Hoya are household names today, something Arum blames on the sport's disappearance from "free" TV. Conversely, the MMA's top series, "The Ultimate Fighter," will be featured at least 38 times this month alone on Spike, a cable network aimed at young male viewers.

Among the young Las Vegas crowd watching Brock Lesnar defeat Randy Couture for the Ultimate Fighting Championship heavyweight title last month were twentysomething friends Adam Krajewski and Mark Hanza, who spent more than $650 each to attend the fight.

For them, part of the MMA's allure was the approachability of the fighters.

"Couture's a guy you could be neighbors with," Hanza said of the former UFC champion, who earned just $250,000 for the Lesnar bout. De La Hoya, by comparison, is guaranteed about $20 million for his fight Saturday.

Nearby, 29-year-old Kirk Porter agreed. An MMA fighter, he said, "isn't as untouchable as the boxer. The big fights are nothing but a marketing machine."

Baxter, the veteran gambler, is open to new ideas and he may soon be interested in betting on MMA bouts, he says. Gambling, after all, is all about identifying trends and exploiting them.

"I just started watching it," Baxter says of MMA. "It's faddish right now. And it may become the biggest thing ever invented.

"That can theoretically happen. You've got to give it some time."

Baxter and Pugmire are Times staff writers.

Look at those suck-up fans. Oscar De La Hoya is about as appealing to me as another birthday.

[dagosd2000]

THE ICE HOUSE

The announcer stood in the middle of the ring waving his arms to quiet everyone down.
"One of the fighters cancelled out."
The field workers sitting in the Ice House started booing and whistling.
"If any of you boys want to get in the ring and fight we can continue the show."
The field workers looked forward to the weekly boxing show at the end of the week. Out in the desert there wasn't anywhere to go to spend your money on. The only entertainment was the boxing matches on Saturday nights at the Ice House. The boys would drink beer and pull for their local fighters at the weekly card. That night one of the fighters didn't show.
"Andale Manny. Get in there. You're his weight."
The Mexican they wanted to go up in the ring and substitue was fun loving but hard and tough and among the others he was a kid who thought nothing of settling matters with his fists.
"If I get in there you guys have to buy me beer the rest of the night. If I win you keep me drunk all year."
His friends were laughing. They knew it wouldn't take anything to coax him to get up there. Besides the kid always figured he could handle any of the field workers.

The kid went to the ring apron and said to the announcer to get him some gear. He was ready. No,he didn't need to warm up. The kid hadn't fought in a boxing match before,but after four rounds his street fighting style was enough to break down his opponent. He was relentless. The crowd at the Ice House was crazy with enthusiasm. The kid was kicking his ass.
"Sigale,sigale !!!"

When the bell rang for the final round,money was flying into the ring. The field workers went through the ropes and lifted the kid on their shoulders.

The kid fought again. He liked it. He made it his career. He traveled the county. Fought at the Garden. He was a Champion.
After fighting. When his legs and reflexes finally convinced him that it wasn't even worth it for the money,he closed the door behind him. Later he drank too much. His liver got sick. He died from drink.

But I remember him. I saw him in those seedy bars downtown later.No one knew who he was. He was the kid that got in the ring that night at the Ice House and became Champion of The World.

[kikibalt]

THE ICE HOUSE

The announcer stood in the middle of the ring waving his arms to quiet everyone down.
"One of the fighters cancelled out."
The field workers sitting in the Ice House started booing and whistling.
"If any of you boys want to get in the ring and fight we can continue the show."
The field workers looked forward to the weekly boxing show at the end of the week. Out in the desert there wasn't anywhere to go to spend your money on. The only entertainment was the boxing matches on Saturday nights at the Ice House. The boys would drink beer and pull for their local fighters at the weekly card. That night one of the fighters didn't show.
"Andale Manny. Get in there. You're his weight."
The Mexican they wanted to go up in the ring and substitue was fun loving but hard and tough and among the others he was a kid who thought nothing of settling matters with his fists.
"If I get in there you guys have to buy me beer the rest of the night. If I win you keep me drunk all year."
His friends were laughing. They knew it wouldn't take anything to coax him to get up there. Besides the kid always figured he could handle any of the field workers.

The kid went to the ring apron and said to the announcer to get him some gear. He was ready. No,he didn't need to warm up. The kid hadn't fought in a boxing match before,but after four rounds his street fighting style was enough to break down his opponent. He was relentless. The crowd at the Ice House was crazy with enthusiasm. The kid was kicking his ass.
"Sigale,sigale !!!"

When the bell rang for the final round,money was flying into the ring. The field workers went through the ropes and lifted the kid on their shoulders.

The kid fought again. He liked it. He made it his career. He traveled the county. Fought at the Garden. He was a Champion.
After fighting. When his legs and reflexes finally convinced him that it wasn't even worth it for the money,he closed the door behind him. Later he drank too much. His liver got sick. He died from drink.

But I remember him. I saw him in those seedy bars downtown later.No one knew who he was. He was the kid that got in the ring that night at the Ice House and became Champion of The World.

Thanks for that great story on Manuel Ortiz, Diego, I had the good fortune of seeing Ortiz fight live, albeit, late in his career, of all the bantamweights that I seen fight live, I rank Ortiz #1 with Eder Jofre #2 and Ruben Olivares as #3, the young fans of today imo don't give Ortiz his dues, they can't seem to see beyond Olivares, who granted, was a great fighter in his own right, but imo Ortiz was just a step or two above him.

[dagosd2000]

THE ICE HOUSE

The announcer stood in the middle of the ring waving his arms to quiet everyone down.
"One of the fighters cancelled out."
The field workers sitting in the Ice House started booing and whistling.
"If any of you boys want to get in the ring and fight we can continue the show."
The field workers looked forward to the weekly boxing show at the end of the week. Out in the desert there wasn't anywhere to go to spend your money on. The only entertainment was the boxing matches on Saturday nights at the Ice House. The boys would drink beer and pull for their local fighters at the weekly card. That night one of the fighters didn't show.
"Andale Manny. Get in there. You're his weight."
The Mexican they wanted to go up in the ring and substitue was fun loving but hard and tough and among the others he was a kid who thought nothing of settling matters with his fists.
"If I get in there you guys have to buy me beer the rest of the night. If I win you keep me drunk all year."
His friends were laughing. They knew it wouldn't take anything to coax him to get up there. Besides the kid always figured he could handle any of the field workers.

The kid went to the ring apron and said to the announcer to get him some gear. He was ready. No,he didn't need to warm up. The kid hadn't fought in a boxing match before,but after four rounds his street fighting style was enough to break down his opponent. He was relentless. The crowd at the Ice House was crazy with enthusiasm. The kid was kicking his ass.
"Sigale,sigale !!!"

When the bell rang for the final round,money was flying into the ring. The field workers went through the ropes and lifted the kid on their shoulders.

The kid fought again. He liked it. He made it his career. He traveled the county. Fought at the Garden. He was a Champion.
After fighting. When his legs and reflexes finally convinced him that it wasn't even worth it for the money,he closed the door behind him. Later he drank too much. His liver got sick. He died from drink.

But I remember him. I saw him in those seedy bars downtown later.No one knew who he was. He was the kid that got in the ring that night at the Ice House and became Champion of The World.

Thanks for that great story on Manuel Ortiz, Diego, I had the good fortune of seeing Ortiz fight live, albeit, late in his career, of all the bantamweights that I seen fight live, I rank Ortiz #1 with Eder Jofre #2 and Ruben Olivares as #3, the young fans of today imo don't give Ortiz his dues, they can't seem to see beyond Olivares, who granted, was a great fighter in his own right, but imo Ortiz was just a step or two above him.

The fans don't know about Ortiz. Way before their time.You're right. Frank,ol' pal,it's a short day today in school. Thought I'd break the pace up. Showing the kids Laurel and Hardy. They never heard of them. They asked me if I could put on Barney. Christ,they're 14 years old and they want to watch Barney. The thing is,these kids' parents still watch Barney. And when these kids grow up,they'll be watching it too.

[kikibalt]

The fans don't know about Ortiz. Way before their time.You're right. Frank,ol' pal,it's a short day today in school. Thought I'd break the pace up. Showing the kids Laurel and Hardy. They never heard of them. They asked me if I could put on Barney. Christ,they're 14 years old and they want to watch Barney. The thing is,these kids' parents still watch Barney. And when these kids grow up,they'll be watching it too.

So you have a short day at school, what're you doing with the rest of the day? go to the Boom Boom Club?, if so can I go?

[dagosd2000]

The fans don't know about Ortiz. Way before their time.You're right. Frank,ol' pal,it's a short day today in school. Thought I'd break the pace up. Showing the kids Laurel and Hardy. They never heard of them. They asked me if I could put on Barney. Christ,they're 14 years old and they want to watch Barney. The thing is,these kids' parents still watch Barney. And when these kids grow up,they'll be watching it too.

So you have a short day at school, what're you doing with the rest of the day? go to the Boom Boom Club?, if so can I go?

Frank
They tore that place down 40 years ago. I was thinking of going to the Coahuila to the Sports Book tomorrow night to watch the fight,but I'd have to get really motivated. The Monaco would be the place I'd go to spend my winnings,or if I lost,I'd probably spend even more.

[dagosd2000]

Now Frank wants to go to the Boom Boom Club. He must be getting better.

[Dongee]

Kiki:

Thanks for posting Manuel's photo as he really was, lithe, tough, ready for action and apparently in perfect shape.

There will never be another like him, of that I am convinced. I'm just sorry that many of the faithful fight fans on this forum didn't get to see Ortliz.He may well have been the greatest Mexican fighter of all time. Quien sabe?

Hope you are feeling better, pal.

hap navarro

[kikibalt]

The fans don't know about Ortiz. Way before their time.You're right. Frank,ol' pal,it's a short day today in school. Thought I'd break the pace up. Showing the kids Laurel and Hardy. They never heard of them. They asked me if I could put on Barney. Christ,they're 14 years old and they want to watch Barney. The thing is,these kids' parents still watch Barney. And when these kids grow up,they'll be watching it too.

So you have a short day at school, what're you doing with the rest of the day? go to the Boom Boom Club?, if so can I go?

Frank
They tore that place down 40 years ago. I was thinking of going to the Coahuila to the Sports Book tomorrow night to watch the fight,but I'd have to get really motivated. The Monaco would be the place I'd go to spend my winnings,or if I lost,I'd probably spend even more.

Well, who said it can't exist in our imagination, after all, thats what minds are for.

[kikibalt]

Now Frank wants to go to the Boom Boom Club. He must be getting better.

No, not really, on top of all the other shit that I have, I been fighting the f..king flu for a week now.

[kikibalt]

Kiki:

Thanks for posting Manuel's photo as he really was, lithe, tough, ready for action and apparently in perfect shape.

There will never be another like him, of that I am convinced. I'm just sorry that many of the faithful fight fans on this forum didn't get to see Ortliz.He may well have been the greatest Mexican fighter of all time. Quien sabe?

Hope you are feeling better, pal.

hap navarro

You're welcome Hap, I feel the same way about Manuel Ortiz as you do, you and I must be about the only ones on these boxing web sites that seen Ortiz fight live....

[kikibalt]

Frankie, this one's for Bennie.
Dan

[Boxingnut]

Now Frank wants to go to the Boom Boom Club. He must be getting better.

No, not really, on top of all the other shit that I have, I been fighting the f..king flu for a week now.

That's rough Frankie, hope you feel better soon.

Rob

[kikibalt]

Now Frank wants to go to the Boom Boom Club. He must be getting better.

No, not really, on top of all the other shit that I have, I been fighting the f..king flu for a week now.

That's rough Frankie, hope you feel better soon.

Rob

I do too, Rob, what with all this coughing and body aches, its getting to be a pain in the ass, plus my wife said if I don't stop coughing at night she is going throw me out, then what am I going to do?.....

[kikibalt]

Randy
My pickup and camper, we were camping at Lower Grays Meadow
campground in Independence, Ca., circa..1967, thats Tony in front
of the pickup.

[kikibalt]

Luis Angel Firpo

By Diego

[Rick Farris]

I do too, Rob, what with all this coughing and body aches, its getting to be a pain in the ass, plus my wife said if I don't stop coughing at night she is going throw me out, then what am I going to do?..... [/quote]
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Frank . . . Hope you feel better. Monica is coming down with similar symptoms, which pretty much puts me in the same boat you were in when Connie was laid up with her injury. However, I have my "I don't know how to do this" act down pretty good, so we'll see what happens. I'm always careful to project a "domestic moron" personna at all times, as a defense mechanism for such situations ;;-) .

-Rick

[kikibalt]

[kikibalt]

Rick,
You have to be a good hubby, if you have to clean house, do so, ditto for cooking, if I had to do it, damn so do you....