FROCH POST-MORTEM

[Deserter]

Well, just got back in from Nottingham and I'm still buzzing now - had a brilliant view of the best fight I've ever seen live. Could not believe what a war it was and that it went the full 12.
I'm over the moon that Carl won, and from my vantage point I had him pulling away in the final third to win by a couple of rounds, but there were plenty of flaws on display as well. For what it's worth, here's how I saw it:

THE GOOD:
Great chin
Great jab (when he finally decided to use it!)
Great stamina
Most importantly, his sheer will to win - he had to dig really deep at times and came through with flying colours.

THE BAD:
His power looks as though it may be over-rated as he hit Pascal flush on a number of occasions and while he shook him on a couple of occasions he never really looked as though he was going to KO him.
He seemed a bit one-paced at times and unable to 'move through the gears' or alter his game plan (bar the final third when he started doubling up on the jab)

THE UGLY:
When the f**k is he going to realise that at this level he isn't good enough to leave his left low and rely on slipping shots (which he then ships full-on!) If he doesn't address his defensive inadequacies his reign will be short-lived.

I've always been a huge fan of Froch but while he proved he belonged in world class tonight, I was left a bit concerned about his long-term prospects as his flaws at this level were explicitly exposed.
Still, it was a great learning fight for him and nobody could begrudge him a 'give-me' after a war like that. The only super-middle I wouldn't put him in with at this point in time is Kessler, as I can see the Dane punishing his defensive short-comings in brutal fashion.

[jamesmcdonnell]

the good - all of the above.

The bad - overexcitement on the big occasion, and the tendency to get involved in a massive ruck.

Carl can probably make a couple of defences, then lose his title and get it back in a series of exciting and overly dramatic fights, because that it the kind of personality he is, he cannot help himself - but he will be in some exciting fights, win or lose.

He is basically the super middleweight version of Haye, but with a little bit more charisma, and a lot more chin.

Love it Carl - go on my son.

[boxerbob]

froch did drag out the win but this fight should not have been for the title,,,thought both guys were quite basic and very one paced.

fight should have been for a top 10 ranking....not a world title.

if froch fights taylor , id take taylor big time , same goes for kessler

[adamiw]

one of the fights of the year for sure, and made a mockery of the London bill



.....I've always said Froch has a good chin....even i was surprised exactly how granite it proved to be.....he must have taken more than a dozen flush, big punches from Pascal......if he had anything less than an excellent chin, he would have been down and probably out.....Pascal to his credit also showed a lot of toughness which he was rumoured to have a lack of heading into the bout



Froch has reached his level, and it is very apparent that he is too easy to hit to impose any dominance on the division.....but he is a credible belt holder and presents a stiff challenge to anyone at 168 .........I'd pick Kessler and Taylor over him, but he'd go in as a live underdog.......



....Pascal, has very good natural ability, he is only gonna get better....i wouldn't be surprised if he picks up a title in the future

[Poncey]

Did anyone else think Froch had a cold? Kept sniffing at the end, looked a bit lethargic at times in the early rounds, and spitting about 30 secs into each round.

[yiddo14]

froch did drag out the win but this fight should not have been for the title,,,thought both guys were quite basic and very one paced.

fight should have been for a top 10 ranking....not a world title.

if froch fights taylor , id take taylor big time , same goes for kessler

Bit harsh about the top 10 ranking.

I bet no one here can come up with 10 better Super Middleweights than Pascal and Froch right now.

[Syntax Error]

Well, just got back in from Nottingham and I'm still buzzing now - had a brilliant view of the best fight I've ever seen live. Could not believe what a war it was and that it went the full 12.
I'm over the moon that Carl won, and from my vantage point I had him pulling away in the final third to win by a couple of rounds, but there were plenty of flaws on display as well. For what it's worth, here's how I saw it:

THE GOOD:
Great chin
Great jab (when he finally decided to use it!)
Great stamina
Most importantly, his sheer will to win - he had to dig really deep at times and came through with flying colours.

THE BAD:
His power looks as though it may be over-rated as he hit Pascal flush on a number of occasions and while he shook him on a couple of occasions he never really looked as though he was going to KO him.
He seemed a bit one-paced at times and unable to 'move through the gears' or alter his game plan (bar the final third when he started doubling up on the jab)

THE UGLY:
When the f**k is he going to realise that at this level he isn't good enough to leave his left low and rely on slipping shots (which he then ships full-on!) If he doesn't address his defensive inadequacies his reign will be short-lived.

I've always been a huge fan of Froch but while he proved he belonged in world class tonight, I was left a bit concerned about his long-term prospects as his flaws at this level were explicitly exposed.
Still, it was a great learning fight for him and nobody could begrudge him a 'give-me' after a war like that. The only super-middle I wouldn't put him in with at this point in time is Kessler, as I can see the Dane punishing his defensive short-comings in brutal fashion.

Excellent summing up; I can't disagree at all.

I was there last night & I'm so happy for Carl, but he's got a lot to learn if he is to go up against Kessler.

I also thought the fight was closer than the scorecards suggested: I need to see it on tv to confirm.

[frankwarrenfan]

fantastic fight

froch looked really nervous before the fight and took a while to settle down but he pulled away well in the last third of the fight

i scored it 116-112

i actually think carl has better performances than this in him

good luck to him anyway

[Bard of Boxrec]

do we not think Froch would beat Taylor? Anyone with chin and heart issues would have a nightmare against Froch. Taylor would be the Cotto to Froch's Margarito IMO.

[bennie]

Top win. Is Froch the first Nottingham man to win a world title?

[Twinkle Toes]

I'm not getting too excited about what Froch can go on to achieve, because I do believe that Pascal was giving Froch just the fight he wanted.

Pascal fought a pretty basic fight, lunging in with big shots, and that's all he did. Even with such a poor tactic, he still did hit Carl at will, and in my view, that fight will have taken a lot of both fighters.

Carl is a shockingly poor combination puncher, he is good single shot picker, in particular the uppercut, but looks clumsy when he tries to deliver more than that. He also is happy to ship big shots, due to the left being down by his knee and the right down by his waist - He wont change that style now.

Frustratingly he has a great jab, but just doesn't use it enough - For me, the jab won him that fight last night, because when he chose to use it, Pascal could not find a way in.

Overall it is very good news Froch won, and I think he can probably go on to have a reasonable reign, but a Kessler, or a Calzaghe would box his head off in my opinion.

[ALI]

do we not think Froch would beat Taylor? Anyone with chin and heart issues would have a nightmare against Froch. Taylor would be the Cotto to Froch's Margarito IMO.

What cloud are you on........ Taylor has stamina issues but your a mug if you question his heart and chin.


I was very impressed by Froch's heart and will to win last night. I'd never really been a fan, i've always thought he was over hyped and the fan-hype throughout his pro career grated on me. I still dont think he's anywhere near as good as some do, he's just to open defensive'ly, but he went a long way to proving me wrong last night and i take my hat of to him. I hope he can reign for some time.

Like a few others on this thread, i'd take Kessler to beat Froch, and quite comfortably too. I'd also take Taylor to beat him but Froch could make a fight of it, dont see him winning though.

[bennie]

The big British boxing night is over and, as expected, there were thrills, spills, upsets - everything. Carl Froch walked into slick, heavy handed, previously unbeaten Canadian Jean Pascal and pounded out a thrilling 12-round decision in his own Nottingham fortress for the WBC super-middleweight title. Nice.
Strongman Froch did exactly the right thing as he lured Pascal into a war, a battle of attrition. Carl "The Cobra", who somehow makes 12 stone, is not going to lose any tear-ups at this stage of his career. His style and his porous defence, however, make you wonder about his long-term future at this level, although he can certainly soak up a punch. Take a fight with Calzaghe now, take the money. Froch might just 'do' the quick but rapidly ageing Welshman.
On the same night in London Amir Khan blitzed Irish trier Oisin Fagan in two empahtic rounds. Khan can dish it out, all right. Can he take it? This is the quandary facing him and his new trainer Freddie Roach, who had a pretty good night, over the next couple of years. The 21-year-old Khan can only go out there and win in the meantime and his lightning-speed and reflexes put him a class above the likes of Fagan. Plus, boxing fans have short memories. A few more wins like this, and Breidis Prescott will only get a casual mention. Seriously. More defining tests have to happen one day, though.
As for Audley Harrison, I'm sorry, the guy is useless. He won an Olympic gold medal because he mastered the computer scoring system used in the amateur game, not beause he mastered boxing. His heart is not in it - never was, never will be. Anyone with heart is going to expose him over a distance. Well done Martin Rogan. Enjoy the next few heady months. Unbeaten, you deserve a crack at something big.

[Autobarn]

Froch won an excellent fight. He's waited ages for this after being messed about. I think the main issue was rushing in overexcited, maybe overanxiousness. No wonder if he was, following the Inkin pullouts.

Let's look on the bright side. He can take the good, and work on the bad. Surely last night showed him what he can and what he can't get away with, in world class. Thus they make changes, move forward. I doubt Mick H does the Warren strategy, i.e. feed him bums, so he looks like he's improved when he hasn't. WBC will make him fight 2 decent/good mandatories. The learning curve continues.

When he worked off the jab, he looked great - fluid, even. The old cliche that everything comes off the jab. Pascal did time some excellent counters, and threw some wicked body shots. Pascal struggled with the reach, as he likes to throw fast shots from quite far outside. So when Froch jabbed, it was a sound strategy, and it looked great,


Taylor hasn't even looked comfortable under light middleweight pressure. Taylor has a world class left hand, average stamina, lack of real assertiveness. I think Taylor would be a good fight to move Froch up another half a notch.


Ultimately, we don't produce perfect fighters over here. But we need stars like this. I mean, how many more flush rights would Calzaghe have taken, without Sports Network matchmaking and FW controlling the WBO title?? Collins used to take flush shots all the time, making the shots he took look worse than they were. Lennox could box brilliantly from outside, and drop in power shots from outside - but he moved like a man on a toilet seat, and had a poor pace, etc etc. Eubank couldn't fight coming forwards, Benn didn't start slipping shots till he was a super middle. Hatton has only just shown he can use at jab at world level, and so on.

"The Cobra" has really announced himself. Super middle needs its fresh faces.

[Deserter]

I'm not getting too excited about what Froch can go on to achieve, because I do believe that Pascal was giving Froch just the fight he wanted.

Pascal fought a pretty basic fight, lunging in with big shots, and that's all he did. Even with such a poor tactic, he still did hit Carl at will, and in my view, that fight will have taken a lot of both fighters.

Carl is a shockingly poor combination puncher, he is good single shot picker, in particular the uppercut, but looks clumsy when he tries to deliver more than that. He also is happy to ship big shots, due to the left being down by his knee and the right down by his waist - He wont change that style now.

Frustratingly he has a great jab, but just doesn't use it enough - For me, the jab won him that fight last night, because when he chose to use it, Pascal could not find a way in.

Overall it is very good news Froch won, and I think he can probably go on to have a reasonable reign, but a Kessler, or a Calzaghe would box his head off in my opinion.

A few interesting points there. I was surprised that Pascal was so willing to engage in a war as I expected him to get on his bike rather than opt to trade, so in that respect it was disappointing that Carl wasn't able to truly impose himself given Pascal's tactics should have played into his hands.
Having said that, Pascal was still very slick at times, in a Pernell Whittaker-lite fashion, particularly the crouching to the floor with head-down tactic (which the ref should have warned him for IMO as it was borderline illegal), and that made it incredibly difficult to hit him cleanly with any combinations.
I agree completely about the jab though - when he started employing it properly from about the eighth onwards he controlled the tempo of the fight (though this was in part because Pascal had lost a bit of zip by this point and was consequently getting tagged by shots he'd been slipping earlier).
Ironically last night again proved how much we should value Joe while he's still around as he'd have taken the pair of them to school.

[Deserter]

Froch won an excellent fight. He's waited ages for this after being messed about. I think the main issue was rushing in overexcited, maybe overanxiousness. No wonder if he was, following the Inkin pullouts.

Let's look on the bright side. He can take the good, and work on the bad. Surely last night showed him what he can and what he can't get away with, in world class. Thus they make changes, move forward. I doubt Mick H does the Warren strategy, i.e. feed him bums, so he looks like he's improved when he hasn't. WBC will make him fight 2 decent/good mandatories. The learning curve continues.

When he worked off the jab, he looked great - fluid, even. The old cliche that everything comes off the jab. Pascal did time some excellent counters, and threw some wicked body shots. Pascal struggled with the reach, as he likes to throw fast shots from quite far outside. So when Froch jabbed, it was a sound strategy, and it looked great,


Taylor hasn't even looked comfortable under light middleweight pressure. Taylor has a world class left hand, average stamina, lack of real assertiveness. I think Taylor would be a good fight to move Froch up another half a notch.


Ultimately, we don't produce perfect fighters over here. But we need stars like this. I mean, how many more flush rights would Calzaghe have taken, without Sports Network matchmaking and FW controlling the WBO title?? Collins used to take flush shots all the time, making the shots he took look worse than they were. Lennox could box brilliantly from outside, and drop in power shots from outside - but he moved like a man on a toilet seat, and had a poor pace, etc etc. Eubank couldn't fight coming forwards, Benn didn't start slipping shots till he was a super middle. Hatton has only just shown he can use at jab at world level, and so on.

"The Cobra" has really announced himself. Super middle needs its fresh faces.

Good post fella, and as with James' post earlier you touch on something I should have in my original post in terms of the 'bad' also being his desire for a 'tear-up' - if he'd set up everything off the jab earlier in the fight and boxed more (as McCracken was imploring him to do!), he'd have had a far easier night and I suspect he could also have forced a late stoppage.
However, at this stage of his career and at the age of 31, I just can't see him addressing the defensive flaws adequately. After all, the concerns about the low left hand have been raised time and time again so it's hardly a new thing and he's just stuck with the habit now.
I'd still favour him to beat Taylor, but he'd have to force the pace more to make Taylor uncomfortable. Last night he spent too long in the early rounds looking for the spectacular single punch and let Pascal really settle into the fight as a result and control the tempo for long periods, whereas if he'd applied consistent pressure behind the jab to ensure Pascal couldn't get 'set' for his flashy counters he'd have won at a canter IMO.

[Gray-Fox]

Very good fight by two limited fighters

[nickd]

A good win for Froch but there are much stiffer tests at 168 than Pascal.

Kessler would box his ears off. He'd easily land that ramrod jab and straight right all night. I can't see it going 12 in all honesty, Froch has a good chin but absolutely no defence for straight shots. He does use his gloves sometimes to block hooks but anything down the middle lands.

Calzaghe would beat him easily.

Although he won Froch's limitations in world class were exposed tonight IMO, just Pascal wasn't quite good enough to exploit them.

What a great fight though.

[Autobarn]

Yeah, I would like it if Froch just got on with the boxing as the big shots would come easier. Still, I think he can learn - the talent is definitely there. Good to see he can grit it out, in a tough spot if he has to. Just needs to be a bit more fluid and protect himself. Thankfully he has a great chin, so in some cases he will get away with it.

Was a massive night for him, and I think he probably just wanted to make sure he won the title. Surely changes will be made in order to remain champ for a while.

Good to see another British based fighter win a super middle title. Calzaghe, Eubank, Collins, Benn, Catley, Woodhall, Reid.

Nicky Cook - no longer Britain's only world champion

I wonder if the Canadians would be interested in Froch v Bute.

[Max Molyneux]

Froch Vs Andrade would be Interesting, Froch looks weak against workrate and that guy keeps coming forward. Andrade Is the Margarito of the 12st division.

[My T Sharp]

Yeah, I would like it if Froch just got on with the boxing as the big shots would come easier. Still, I think he can learn - the talent is definitely there. Good to see he can grit it out, in a tough spot if he has to. Just needs to be a bit more fluid and protect himself. Thankfully he has a great chin, so in some cases he will get away with it.

Was a massive night for him, and I think he probably just wanted to make sure he won the title. Surely changes will be made in order to remain champ for a while.

Good to see another British based fighter win a super middle title. Calzaghe, Eubank, Collins, Benn, Catley, Woodhall.

Nicky Cook - no longer Britain's only world champion

I wonder if the Canadians would be interested in Froch v Bute.

You forgot Reid. Looking at the SM division now it has sort of returned to the time of Reid, Catley and Woodhall where it was difficult to hold onto the belt for too long because the standard of competition is so close.

[Autobarn]

Fixed it.

Yeah, same title, WBC. I think Froch wil hold it longer than Catley, Reid and Woodhall. But not as long as Benn.

Some big fights out there. Taylor, Dirrell, Bute, Pascal 2, Kessler, Abraham. I hope Froch keeps winning, as it will be big news when Olympian Andre Ward is ready for a title fight.

[Chambers2]

Holay kamoli, what a fight!!! I've never felt like that during a fight, I was pacing the room like a deranged lion during the breaks.

The difference between the 2 fighters was Carls jab, his better stamina and his ironwill to get the job done. The people (on the Current Scene) who were raising question marks over Pascals chin were way off the mark and the fact that he's never been stopped as an amateur or pro and that he has targetted a few BIG punching fighters spoke volumes, he took some BIG full bloodied shots off Carl and never looked like being stopped. I'm not convinced Taylor would be so impregnable, but I don't see that fight happening anyway.

BRING ON CALZAGHE!!!!!
Last night will have done wonders for Carls profile, there won't have been one dissappointed household in the country after the fight, Carl has also toned down his outwardly confident/arrogant persona which (is a shame imo ) appeals alot more to the casual public, but tbh if Carl's consistantly in fights like last nights then they won't give a fcuk either way. There's allegedly a £5m offer on the table to JC for him to fight Froch at the millenium stadium, what a night that would be and I'm very optimistic that it's going to happen

Carls desire to entertain in the ring causes him a host of problems defensively, but there's no way that he's going to change his low lefthand style, that's how he fights and that's the way it is and it ain't done too bad for him so far, however I do think he needs to keep it at range more pumping that long jab out piston like and not be so willing to get involved in the toe-to-toe action (well not as often as last night). Last night could have been alot easier (and far less entertaining) than it was, but it give him another chance to showcase his excellent Toney i.e.his chin. Carl took too many flush shots in close with his chin up in the air, but nothing some as much as wobbled him, but it's not a tactic you want to rely on.

The SM division is stacked with prime fighters, so with Carls willingness to fight all and unify the division I reckon we're gonna see him in some very BIG and very entertaining fights over the next few years, irrespective of how he gets on against Calzaghe (Froch wins by KO 8) ). Other than JC Kessler looks to be the sternest test out there and it could be wise to have a few more fights before the Dane

[My T Sharp]

Don't know about a long reign, if Taylor is the mandatory then it's going to be a tough one.

[My Name Is Earl]

Froch mentioned a few defences back at the Nottingham arena, so some unifications a way off yet imo. No way Bute comes to the UK for starters.

I'd avoid Andrade. A W would make a massive statement to an American audience, but too dangerous for Carl's style.