Classic American West Coast Boxing

[Randyman]

The sad state of the heavyweights

Jeez, what a disgrace. Made all the sadder because Toney really is a talented fighter but he lacks discipline. His career isn't a fraction of what it might have been. The real disgrace belongs to the real heavyweights that fought him. It doesn't say much for the heavies, that either lost to him, or got a draw or had to work hard to eke out a decision. What an embarrassment!

Randy

[Randyman]

Randy, can I ask how your dad died? He was too young.

My father died of prostate cancer. It's a hell of a way to go. He really suffered. The thing is, he never complained. One day though, my brother Dennis and I went to see him at the hospital, and when we got to the room my father was quietly crying. Apparently something went wrong, it's been so long I can't remember exactly what, but the doctors shoved a tube straight into his kidneys, with no anesthesia. It had to be painful. It was the only time during his illness that I saw him break. He felt ashamed for his sons seeing him that way. I let him know that he earned the right. It was tough.



This is how I remember him in my minds eye.

[bennie]

Randy, can I ask how your dad died? He was too young.

My father died of prostate cancer. It's a hell of a way to go. He really suffered. The thing is, he never complained. One day though, my brother Dennis and I went to see him at the hospital, and when we got to the room my father was quietly crying. Apparently something went wrong, it's been so long I can't remember exactly what, but the doctors shoved a tube straight into his kidneys, with no anesthesia. It had to be painful. It was the only time during his illness that I saw him break. He felt ashamed for his sons seeing him that way. I let him know that he earned the right. It was tough.



This is how I remember him in my minds eye.

Thanks, Randy. Your dad lives on in the memory.

[Randyman]

Bennie wrote:
Thanks, Randy. Your dad lives on in the memory.

Thank you

[Randyman]

THE FIRE

"They torched the place."
"I don't believe it."
I heard that Champs Bar had a fire. I saw that the bar was boarded up. Smoke damage was around the perimeter of the door. There was a big sanitainer outside with all the burnt debris piled high inside. A yellow tape cordoned off the front of the bar. The tax guy next door had his door open. He was explaining to me what happened.
"The arson guys were in there. It was set on fire."
The old guy had a cup of coffee infront of him. There was a pack of cigarettes next to the coffee cup.
"They're working on it now,"said the tax man.


I remember when the bar was named Kelley's. Burke Emery was a fixture on the stool at the end of the bar. Burke liked to drink. He had a lot of friends in the neighborhood. He used to train and manage fighters when the Coliseum was going strong. Burke had a stable of Canadian fighters. Burke was Canadian. He boxed pro in the 50's. At one time he was the Canadian Light Heavyweight Champ. One day I walked in there and Burke had bought the place. He renamed it Champs. He was a happy fellow.He got his wish.

"Burke got along with everyone,"I said to the tax guy. He reached for the pack of cigarettes.
"Like I said,they're investigating it now."
The old guy lit a smoke.
"Last place I would think something like this would happen."
"Well it happened."
"Burke's gonna' rebuild?"
"Oh yeh. They want to re open in March."
There didn't seem anything else to say. The old man took a long drag on the cigarette. The smoke drifted from his nostrils.
"Well I'll be talking to you later,"I said.
I began to turn to go out the door.
"Listen,"said the old tax accountant."No matter how hard you try to get along with everybody,there's always one son of a bitch that hates your guts for no reason at all."
With that I got in my car and drove home.

Mel Epstein liked Burke Emory. Burke had fought for Mel when he was promoting up in Montana. I met him years later, during the early 70's when he was training Art Hafey. Hafey claims Burt sold him down the river. Unfortunatly for Art, there were sharks in that river with bigger teeth than Burke's. They had names like Lopez, Arguello and Olivares. Sadly for Art, Ruben was always better the second time around. I guess these guys need somebody to blame when the sun goes down.

-Rick Farris

It helps them live with it.

[dagosd2000]

Interesting comment about Hafey saying it was Emery who screwed up his career. Burke always said it was Parnassus who put Hafey in there when he wasn't ready. The fight with Arguello was George's idea. Burke said he fought against it. I don't think Burke has any animosity towards Hafey. I wonder if he knows how Art feels about him. Seeing Burke today,I don't think he would care. He'll talk boxing,but he's more interested playing darts in his bar. That won't be for a while until they rebuild the place..

[dagosd2000]

THE FIRE

"They torched the place."
"I don't believe it."
I heard that Champs Bar had a fire. I saw that the bar was boarded up. Smoke damage was around the perimeter of the door. There was a big sanitainer outside with all the burnt debris piled high inside. A yellow tape cordoned off the front of the bar. The tax guy next door had his door open. He was explaining to me what happened.
"The arson guys were in there. It was set on fire."
The old guy had a cup of coffee infront of him. There was a pack of cigarettes next to the coffee cup.
"They're working on it now,"said the tax man.


I remember when the bar was named Kelley's. Burke Emery was a fixture on the stool at the end of the bar. Burke liked to drink. He had a lot of friends in the neighborhood. He used to train and manage fighters when the Coliseum was going strong. Burke had a stable of Canadian fighters. Burke was Canadian. He boxed pro in the 50's. At one time he was the Canadian Light Heavyweight Champ. One day I walked in there and Burke had bought the place. He renamed it Champs. He was a happy fellow.He got his wish.

"Burke got along with everyone,"I said to the tax guy. He reached for the pack of cigarettes.
"Like I said,they're investigating it now."
The old guy lit a smoke.
"Last place I would think something like this would happen."
"Well it happened."
"Burke's gonna' rebuild?"
"Oh yeh. They want to re open in March."
There didn't seem anything else to say. The old man took a long drag on the cigarette. The smoke drifted from his nostrils.
"Well I'll be talking to you later,"I said.
I began to turn to go out the door.
"Listen,"said the old tax accountant."No matter how hard you try to get along with everybody,there's always one son of a bitch that hates your guts for no reason at all."
With that I got in my car and drove home.

Mel Epstein liked Burke Emory. Burke had fought for Mel when he was promoting up in Montana. I met him years later, during the early 70's when he was training Art Hafey. Hafey claims Burt sold him down the river. Unfortunatly for Art, there were sharks in that river with bigger teeth than Burke's. They had names like Lopez, Arguello and Olivares. Sadly for Art, Ruben was always better the second time around. I guess these guys need somebody to blame when the sun goes down.

-Rick Farris

It helps them live with it.

Randy
Fighters have the most excuses for losing .Archie Moore still believed the ref gave Marciano too much time to recover after Arch knocked him down. He would still talk about it even in his later years. No one argued with him. Like you said,it helps them cope with it.

[Chuck1052]

One reason that Art Hafey didn't match up well with Alexis Arguello or Danny Lopez was the vast height difference. Notice that Hafey had much more success fighting Ruben Olivares, who was shorter than Lopez or Arguello.

I often wondered if Hafey would have been given a title bout by a promoter in Southern California if he was of Mexican descent. For sure, I feel that Hafey did more than enough to get a shot, but he wasn't a big gate attraction despite being highly regarded among the hardcore fans. As a result, I am not knocking Burke Emery's managerial skills, but I wondered if he should have acted to get Hafey's bout with Lopez stopped much earlier because his charge was taking a brutal beating.

- Chuck Johnston

[kikibalt]

Sugar Ray Robinson vs Joey Maxim

[Rick Farris]

Interesting comment about Hafey saying it was Emery who screwed up his career. Burke always said it was Parnassus who put Hafey in there when he wasn't ready. The fight with Arguello was George's idea. Burke said he fought against it. I don't think Burke has any animosity towards Hafey. I wonder if he knows how Art feels about him. Seeing Burke today,I don't think he would care. He'll talk boxing,but he's more interested playing darts in his bar. That won't be for a while until they rebuild the place..

Who cares? It's always somebody else's fault.

[dagosd2000]

Rick
Did you ever come across a character,who fashioned himself as a promoter,by the name of Louie Lake? He was telling everyone down here that he had a hand in putting together Ali and Norton I.

[raylawpc]

Randy, can I ask how your dad died? He was too young.

My father died of prostate cancer. It's a hell of a way to go. He really suffered. The thing is, he never complained. One day though, my brother Dennis and I went to see him at the hospital, and when we got to the room my father was quietly crying. Apparently something went wrong, it's been so long I can't remember exactly what, but the doctors shoved a tube straight into his kidneys, with no anesthesia. It had to be painful. It was the only time during his illness that I saw him break. He felt ashamed for his sons seeing him that way. I let him know that he earned the right. It was tough.



This is how I remember him in my minds eye.

Randy’s memories of his Dad reminded me of my Mom. May I share about something about her with you?

In 1967, my Mom was diagnosed with breast cancer and underwent a radical mastectomy of her left breast – meaning, they removed not only her breast, but a good part of the underlying muscle and most of the surrounding lymph nodes. In addition, the doctors subjected her to radiation therapy, which was then in its infancy as a form of cancer treatment.

In the years following her mastectomy, she suffered two relapses of cancer, and underwent chemotherapy to put it in remission. In fact, Mom was on a continuous modified version of chemo the last ten years or so of her life to prevent yet another recurrence of the disease (it worked).

If the cancer wasn't bad enough, she suffered nerve damage as a result of the mastectomy, which led to increasingly severe pain in her left arm. By 1974, the only option, according to the doctors said, was to clip a nerve in her neck so that she would no longer experience pain in the arm. The surgery would render her arm completely numb from the shoulder down. Or so they hoped. On the operating table, however, the surgical assistants failed to properly secure Mom’s head into the device intended to hold her neck perfectly still. As the surgeon began cutting the intended nerve in her neck, Mom’s head slipped and he cut the wrong nerves. As a result, Mom still had the arm pain, but lost all muscular control over her arm, and all feeling in her left leg. So, she was left with a completely useless arm and without any relief from her pain or sensation in her left leg.

If that wasn’t enough, the radiation therapy rendered her left shoulder bones and left upper ribs as easy to break as chalk. Little accidents like bumping her left shoulder in the door frame would result in a fracture of the collarbone.

Like Randy’s Dad, I never heard my Mom complain and I never saw her cry. After the arm surgery, somebody suggested Mom sue the neurosurgeon for malpractice. Her reply: “For Heaven’s sake, why would I do that? It wasn’t his fault my head slipped in that brace. He didn’t do it on purpose. How is suing him going to make my arm any better?” I remember one time watching her struggle with some simple household task, and voicing my frustration about the loss of function with her left arm. Her response? “It could have been worse. At least I’m not left handed. I can still write letters and do a lot of things.”

And indeed she could. A stickler for cleanliness, my Mom still vacuumed, dusted and cleaned her house every single day, cooked every meal we ate, and did the laundry twice a week (including ironing – try doing that with one hand). On top of that, after two bouts of cancer, she felt like she needed something to take her mind off her problems, so she became a substitute high school teacher. After I got involved in boxing, she started coming to the fights and really fell in love with the sport. In 1975, she became the first licensed female boxing judge in Oklahoma.

I recall one time at a boxing card, Pat O’Grady commented to me that my Mom looked like she wasn’t feeling very well. “Well, Pat, yesterday Mom broke her collarbone getting out of the car.” “What the hell is she doing here then?” “You had her down to judge some of the fights tonight, and she didn’t want to let you down,” I replied. I remember Pat shaking his head, and saying, “Compared to your Mom, all these fighters are just pussies.” I know my Mom’s determination and toughness commanded the attention and respect of all the boxing guys in Oklahoma City. Everybody was on a first name basis in our crew – even our ringside physician was just “Doc” – but everybody called my mother “Mrs. Ray.”

I have always respected and admired top flight boxers. But I can’t say that any of them were ever my hero. That’s because I didn’t have to look any farther than my Mom to have a hero.

My Mom died in 1992 from congestive heart failure. I miss her every day.

I have never written any of this about my Mom before. Thanks for letting me share, guys.

[dagosd2000]

Another question for Rick(maybe Frank would know this)
Did you ever see a middlweight fight in the 70's by the name of David Love? Once in a while I'll bump into him. He fought Renato Garcia. Later he beat Bennie Briscoe and Bobby Watts. Wasn't a hard worker in the gym. Likes to play golf(I don't play golf)but has a lot of interesting stories. Said he used to spar with Indian Red. Told me Red could really crack.

[dagosd2000]

Randy, can I ask how your dad died? He was too young.

My father died of prostate cancer. It's a hell of a way to go. He really suffered. The thing is, he never complained. One day though, my brother Dennis and I went to see him at the hospital, and when we got to the room my father was quietly crying. Apparently something went wrong, it's been so long I can't remember exactly what, but the doctors shoved a tube straight into his kidneys, with no anesthesia. It had to be painful. It was the only time during his illness that I saw him break. He felt ashamed for his sons seeing him that way. I let him know that he earned the right. It was tough.



This is how I remember him in my minds eye.

Randy’s memories of his Dad reminded me of my Mom. May I share about something about her with you?

In 1967, my Mom was diagnosed with breast cancer and underwent a radical mastectomy of her left breast – meaning, they removed not only her breast, but a good part of the underlying muscle and most of the surrounding lymph nodes. In addition, the doctors subjected her to radiation therapy, which was then in its infancy as a form of cancer treatment.

In the years following her mastectomy, she suffered two relapses of cancer, and underwent chemotherapy to put it in remission. In fact, Mom was on a continuous modified version of chemo the last ten years or so of her life to prevent yet another recurrence of the disease (it worked).

If the cancer wasn't bad enough, she suffered nerve damage as a result of the mastectomy, which resulting led to increasingly severe pain in her left arm. By 1974, the only option, according to the doctors said, was to clip a nerve in her neck so that she would no longer experience pain in the arm. The surgery would render her arm completely numb from the shoulder down. Or so they hoped. On the operating table, however, the surgical assistants failed to properly secure Mom’s head into the device intended to hold her neck perfectly still. As the surgeon began cutting the intended nerve in her neck, Mom’s head slipped and he cut the wrong nerves. As a result, Mom still had the arm pain, but lost all muscular control over her arm, and all feeling in her left leg. So, she was left with a completely useless arm and without any relief from her pain or sensation in her left leg.

If that wasn’t enough, the radiation therapy rendered her left shoulder bones and left upper ribs as easy to break as chalk. Little accidents like bumping her left shoulder in the door frame would result in a fracture of the collarbone.

Like Randy’s Dad, I never heard my Mom complain and I never saw her cry. After the arm surgery, somebody suggested Mom sue the neurosurgeon for malpractice. Her reply: “For Heaven’s sake, why would I do that? It wasn’t his fault my head slipped in that brace. He didn’t do it on purpose. How is suing him going to make my arm any better?” I remember one time watching her struggle with some simple household task, and voicing my frustration about the loss of function with her left arm. Her response? “It could have been worse. At least I’m not left handed. I can still write letters and do a lot of things.”

And indeed she could. A stickler for cleanliness, my Mom still vacuumed, dusted and cleaned her house every single day, cooked every meal we ate, and did the laundry twice a week (including ironing – try doing that with one hand). On top of that, after two bouts of cancer, she felt like she needed something to take her mind off her problems, so she became a substitute high school teacher. After I got involved in boxing, she started coming to the fights and really fell in love with the sport. In 1975, she became the first licensed female boxing judge in Oklahoma.

I recall one time at a boxing card, Pat O’Grady commented to me that my Mom looked like she wasn’t feeling very well. “Well, Pat, yesterday Mom broke her collarbone getting out of the car.” “What the hell is she doing here then?” “You had her down to judge some of the fights tonight, and she didn’t want to let you down,” I replied. I remember Pat shaking his head, and saying, “Compared to your Mom, all these fighters are just pussies.” I know my Mom’s determination and toughness commanded the attention and respect of all the boxing guys in Oklahoma City. Everybody was on a first name basis in our crew – even our ringside physician was just “Doc” – but everybody called my mother “Mrs. Ray.”

I have always respected and admired top flight boxers. But I can’t say that any of them were ever my hero. That’s because I didn’t have to look any farther than my Mom to have a hero.

My Mom died in 1992 from congestive heart failure. I miss her every day.

I have never written any of this about my Mom before. Thanks for letting me share, guys.

Tom
Thanks for sharing your story. It's that time of the season when we think about our loved ones that are gone and can't be with us,only in memory. Rog

[dagosd2000]

A LONESOME PLACE

How Mexican women suffer. Maybe I'm being over dramatic,but I've seen a lot of them that do. All women,when they become wives and mothers,bear a lot. They say it's not easy being a man. Women aren't living on easy street either.

Where I teach school,it's mostly Mexican kids. I look up their records and most of those kids are living with their mothers. No dad around. When there's a parent conference,it's the mother who shows up. Maybe the grandmother. These women are usually very apologetic for their childrens' bad behavior,but I can see where the future is just going to be more of the same. When the mother doesn't have her husband around anymore,the only male in her life is her son. She over indulges him,spoils him, and enables him. The boy knows he's got his mother's unconditional devotion.

The future problem with all this is that the boy,later,will find a woman like his mother and wind up giving her misery. Then he'll leave and the cycle repeats itself.

I know it's not all like what I just said,but down where I'm at,it's seems to be the scenario. Maybe that's why I'm a little more successfull than the other teachers. More popular with the kids. I'm not fooling anyone. I try to act like a dad to them. The dad who's not around.

If anything,the kids' mothers appreciate it.

[kikibalt]

Another question for Rick(maybe Frank would know this)
Did you ever see a middlweight fight in the 70's by the name of David Love? Once in a while I'll bump into him. He fought Renato Garcia. Later he beat Bennie Briscoe and Bobby Watts. Wasn't a hard worker in the gym. Likes to play golf(I don't play golf)but has a lot of interesting stories. Said he used to spar with Indian Red. Told me Red could really crack.

Yeah, I seen Love fight a few times, don't remember when, where or against who....

[kikibalt]

Rick
Did you ever come across a character,who fashioned himself as a promoter,by the name of Louie Lake? He was telling everyone down here that he had a hand in putting together Ali and Norton I.

You didn't ask me, but yes, Lake had a hand in putting together the first Ali/Norton fight, but he got kicked out of the picture before the fight took place.

[Expug]

Another question for Rick(maybe Frank would know this)
Did you ever see a middlweight fight in the 70's by the name of David Love? Once in a while I'll bump into him. He fought Renato Garcia. Later he beat Bennie Briscoe and Bobby Watts. Wasn't a hard worker in the gym. Likes to play golf(I don't play golf)but has a lot of interesting stories. Said he used to spar with Indian Red. Told me Red could really crack.

Yeah, I seen Love fight a few times, don't remember when, where or against who....

Rog, I watched Hagler fight Love .
It was on the tube here.I took one look at that fight and thought this guy Hagler is a beast.He hit Love with combination after combination. Marvin was really rolling at that point in his career.He was a hungry fighter looking for a shot.

[Expug]

Now that I looked up Loves record, I dont see the Hagler fight there.
Man, I could swear I saw them fight....maybe not.
Maybe senility is setting in.

[Randyman]

Randy, can I ask how your dad died? He was too young.

My father died of prostate cancer. It's a hell of a way to go. He really suffered. The thing is, he never complained. One day though, my brother Dennis and I went to see him at the hospital, and when we got to the room my father was quietly crying. Apparently something went wrong, it's been so long I can't remember exactly what, but the doctors shoved a tube straight into his kidneys, with no anesthesia. It had to be painful. It was the only time during his illness that I saw him break. He felt ashamed for his sons seeing him that way. I let him know that he earned the right. It was tough.



This is how I remember him in my minds eye.

Randy’s memories of his Dad reminded me of my Mom. May I share about something about her with you?

In 1967, my Mom was diagnosed with breast cancer and underwent a radical mastectomy of her left breast – meaning, they removed not only her breast, but a good part of the underlying muscle and most of the surrounding lymph nodes. In addition, the doctors subjected her to radiation therapy, which was then in its infancy as a form of cancer treatment.

In the years following her mastectomy, she suffered two relapses of cancer, and underwent chemotherapy to put it in remission. In fact, Mom was on a continuous modified version of chemo the last ten years or so of her life to prevent yet another recurrence of the disease (it worked).

If the cancer wasn't bad enough, she suffered nerve damage as a result of the mastectomy, which led to increasingly severe pain in her left arm. By 1974, the only option, according to the doctors said, was to clip a nerve in her neck so that she would no longer experience pain in the arm. The surgery would render her arm completely numb from the shoulder down. Or so they hoped. On the operating table, however, the surgical assistants failed to properly secure Mom’s head into the device intended to hold her neck perfectly still. As the surgeon began cutting the intended nerve in her neck, Mom’s head slipped and he cut the wrong nerves. As a result, Mom still had the arm pain, but lost all muscular control over her arm, and all feeling in her left leg. So, she was left with a completely useless arm and without any relief from her pain or sensation in her left leg.

If that wasn’t enough, the radiation therapy rendered her left shoulder bones and left upper ribs as easy to break as chalk. Little accidents like bumping her left shoulder in the door frame would result in a fracture of the collarbone.

Like Randy’s Dad, I never heard my Mom complain and I never saw her cry. After the arm surgery, somebody suggested Mom sue the neurosurgeon for malpractice. Her reply: “For Heaven’s sake, why would I do that? It wasn’t his fault my head slipped in that brace. He didn’t do it on purpose. How is suing him going to make my arm any better?” I remember one time watching her struggle with some simple household task, and voicing my frustration about the loss of function with her left arm. Her response? “It could have been worse. At least I’m not left handed. I can still write letters and do a lot of things.”

And indeed she could. A stickler for cleanliness, my Mom still vacuumed, dusted and cleaned her house every single day, cooked every meal we ate, and did the laundry twice a week (including ironing – try doing that with one hand). On top of that, after two bouts of cancer, she felt like she needed something to take her mind off her problems, so she became a substitute high school teacher. After I got involved in boxing, she started coming to the fights and really fell in love with the sport. In 1975, she became the first licensed female boxing judge in Oklahoma.

I recall one time at a boxing card, Pat O’Grady commented to me that my Mom looked like she wasn’t feeling very well. “Well, Pat, yesterday Mom broke her collarbone getting out of the car.” “What the hell is she doing here then?” “You had her down to judge some of the fights tonight, and she didn’t want to let you down,” I replied. I remember Pat shaking his head, and saying, “Compared to your Mom, all these fighters are just pussies.” I know my Mom’s determination and toughness commanded the attention and respect of all the boxing guys in Oklahoma City. Everybody was on a first name basis in our crew – even our ringside physician was just “Doc” – but everybody called my mother “Mrs. Ray.”

I have always respected and admired top flight boxers. But I can’t say that any of them were ever my hero. That’s because I didn’t have to look any farther than my Mom to have a hero.

My Mom died in 1992 from congestive heart failure. I miss her every day.

I have never written any of this about my Mom before. Thanks for letting me share, guys.

Tom, thanks for sharing that with us. What a wonderful and brave woman your mother was. There's not too many men, in any profession that that could have or would have endured that type pain and illness. I can see why she is your hero.

My condolences on the loss of Mr's Ray, my friend. I say Mr's Ray with all due respect.

Randy

[Expug]

Now that I looked up Loves record, I dont see the Hagler fight there.
Man, I could swear I saw them fight....maybe not.
Maybe senility is setting in.

Ah, I got it now,it was Doug Demmings.Not David Love.
And, it was a" Boxing From the Olympic" broadcast.
It only took three posts to figure it all out.

[kikibalt]

Carl "Bobo" Olson vs Robert Villemain

July 12 1952

[Randyman]

Another question for Rick(maybe Frank would know this)
Did you ever see a middlweight fight in the 70's by the name of David Love? Once in a while I'll bump into him. He fought Renato Garcia. Later he beat Bennie Briscoe and Bobby Watts. Wasn't a hard worker in the gym. Likes to play golf(I don't play golf)but has a lot of interesting stories. Said he used to spar with Indian Red. Told me Red could really crack.

I don't know too much about David Love, but mine and Rick's old stablemate Mike Nixon fought him 34 years ago, on December 6, 1974 in San Diego, probably the Coliseum. I remember there was some type of controversy about the fight though I can't remember what it was. Looking at the records it was a ND ending in the 9th round of a scheduled 10. Rick, probably knows more about it.

Randy

[Randyman]

Now that I looked up Loves record, I dont see the Hagler fight there.
Man, I could swear I saw them fight....maybe not.
Maybe senility is setting in.

It happens when we get to a certain age.

Randy

[kikibalt]

Tom, I agree with Randy that your mom was a very brave woman, and yes, thanks for sharing your memories and thoughts about your mom with us.