Francesco Pianeta

[slapbangwhallop]

why is he listed as Italian?

[jomothepure]

Could you possibly outline your criteria on nationality again sligo? I'm sure during The Great Duddy War and Duddy War II you had a list of what you'd use to define a nationality.

I think currently you're still miffed that there isn't a regimented procedure (if one is at all attainable?) for dealing with tricky nationality issues. atm, you highlighting individual discrepancies isn't really helping anyone.

I can't speak for john or the admin chaps, but maybe a talk about the broad issue - maybe in the OT forum - may help.

Personally I think you're asking quite a lot for boxrec to have a database where every boxer's nationality is on the button. There's a host of different sources out there, and a host of different admin guys to interpret it in different ways. Then there's also the fact that a boxer's circumstances may change since his record was created. I'd say 95% of the nationalities on boxrec are correct. If the other 5% are not, it's probably due to a change of circumstance, different interpretation of the circumstances, or unreliable/conflicting sources. And if a boxer or his agent sends an e-mail confirming or altering the field, then it's changed.

[slapbangwhallop]

Could you possibly outline your criteria on nationality again sligo? I'm sure during The Great Duddy War and Duddy War II you had a list of what you'd use to define a nationality.

I think currently you're still miffed that there isn't a regimented procedure (if one is at all attainable?) for dealing with tricky nationality issues. atm, you highlighting individual discrepancies isn't really helping anyone.

I can't speak for john or the admin chaps, but maybe a talk about the broad issue - maybe in the OT forum - may help.

Personally I think you're asking quite a lot for boxrec to have a database where every boxer's nationality is on the button. There's a host of different sources out there, and a host of different admin guys to interpret it in different ways. Then there's also the fact that a boxer's circumstances may change since his record was created. I'd say 95% of the nationalities on boxrec are correct. If the other 5% are not, it's probably due to a change of circumstance, different interpretation of the circumstances, or unreliable/conflicting sources. And if a boxer or his agent sends an e-mail confirming or altering the field, then it's changed.

Hi jomo,

As usual I can count on you for a well thought post on this topic.

I dont have my own criteria and when it comes to nationality and I acknowledge that it is a difficult one especially in the modern era when boxers move around so much.

I understand that there is a lot of boxers out there and keeping track on all the information must be hard. But when the facts of a boxer are known then there should be consistancy in interpreting the information.

I really dont want to make this a "Duddy issue" because its not - it was but its a lot bigger than just one boxer now - its about the credibility of the records that are kept on Boxrec.

At the moment it seems that Boxrec are to a certain degree "just making it up"

I would like them to set out their criteria for nationality - one way or the other - and then apply it consistantly to all boxers and not treat some boxers different to others because of the personal point of view of an editor or an admin.

Is that an unlandish or unreasonable request? I dont think so.

And it doesnt really look good when admins or editors from Boxrec are not even willing to address the issue and the best they can come up with is

"The only thing that's in a mess is YOU" - AntonS, and
"I don't think anybody takes you seriously at this point." - tegenm

[jomothepure]

Hi jomo,

As usual I can count on you for a well thought post

Consider yourself honoured. I don't like making too many serious and well thought out posts. They're bad for my reputation and weaken my constitution.

First (should have asked this last night) what is the deal with Pianeta? Has he German citizenship through a parent (presumably his Mother?) or is it just a residency thing? I was googling him last night and all the different sites were conflicting. Some calling him Italian, some German, some German-Italian, some German-based Italian.

So if I was the guy filling in his info, I wouldn't know what to do. Probably plump for Italian, given his birth-place. I could I suppose put it out on the admin forum and ask if anyone had a bit more background on Pianeta and his nationality. Could also be the case that the guys' manager or whoever says, whilst giving me his height, inside leg measurements etc. that he's German. Now do I go with what he's said, or stick with the Italian thing? Maybe this is where different mods and rockers will do different things, or there isn't a regimented way you can treat these things. For instance, if I was doing St Clair's info, I would put him as Guyanese, based on what I've got to go on (ie. he was born in Guyana. If at a later juncture I get a note from his representative saying please put him as Australian, as he has aussie citizenship, then personally I'd do it, for the reasons I said on the St Clair thread itself - as a pro boxer, it would probably be more helpful for him getting fights from a work permit etc point of view if promotors knew he had oz citizenship. With the birth place field in his record there, I think folk who are sufficiently interested will be able to search and find out he's Guyanese in many respects, and that he's an aussie for residential/professional reasons.

I can't finish the illustration because I don't really know what's with Pianeta's history, but I'd treat it the same way. Go with the birthplace unless there's some piece of conflicting evidence, or a directive from his management. And if he ends up German, people can still see he was born in Italy, and if they so wish can google him and check up on his background.

I agree with you that some sort of procedure could be in place. Maybe it is already, I don't know. However, even that - agreeing on a procedure - is a tough one. Also, the level of "facts" available with regards nationality will be almost unique in most of these contentious cases. I also think it's too much to ask a bunch of volunteers to phone around/write/email boxers and their management teams in order to find out what they consider their nationality to be.

I will say I think Big Brother could be a little more forthcoming when giving their reasons behind something alledgedly contentious - for example the choice of nationality given to x. It is a private site, and in that respect if the owners want to put Arturo Gatti down as Iclandic then it's up to them. It would be good courtesy to tell someone, if they ask, why Gatti is listed as Iclandic. It would also improve their validity or reputation of the site if explanation could be given with regards an action or entry.

But again, it's a voluntary-run site, and it's up to them whether they feel the need to answer to Tom Dick or Harry about a particular entry. I fear you personally have been tarred with a trouble-maker's brush. If your first ever post had been, "I was wondering whether you could tell me what the situation is regarding Pianeta's nationality. Some sources have him down as Italian, others as German. What do you base your criteria on?" then I reckon you would have been answered. Alas, I don't know how the pint of short shrift you've been given can be taken back to the bar and changed. Whether bygones can be made bygones and a final nationality mass debate/intercourse can be entered into, or whether you'll need to go out and come back in again (sign up as "duddyisbritish," they'll never guess it was you) it's not for me to say.

[slapbangwhallop]

Just to clear up the Pianeta situation. Both his parents are Italian, they emigrated to German when he was six, he grew up and still lives in Germany. He holds his Italian roots close to him for those obvious reasons, and he is listed as Italian.

I would say that this is a similar case to Michael Gomez who was born and brought up in Ireland until the age of nine, they emigrated to Britain when he was nine, he has lived there ever since. He holds his Irish roots close to him for those obvious reasons, and he is listed as ?????

As I said above I don’t want to make this a Duddy issue but you have addressed this issue above so I will give you a quick run down on the situation there. Born and brought up Derry, Northern Ireland. People from the north have always been entitle to and Irish (RoI) passport from the creation of the country under Articles 2 and 3 of its constitution, this was then dropped and replaced with the Good Friday Agreement (GFA) when both the British's and Irish agreed that people from Northern Ireland's nationality would be treated differently to England, Wales and Scotland in that they could be recognised as British, Irish or both - and hold passports to that effect.

Duddy holds an Irish passport - this has been confirmed to Boxrec by Team Duddy.

As for the "trouble maker" tag, all I will say to that is if you ask them nicely to address the issue they will ignore you, If you ask them vociferously then they will lock the thread. Many posters have raised the issue not just me - all initially comes and request a discussion on the Irish - all are ignored.

Its an issue of consistency in the record keeping. All boxers should be treated equally.

[Jabby]

It would make life very simple if BoxRec would implement the following policy with regard to nationality.

The policy should be that a boxer is the nationality of the nation of his obtained or obtainable passport.

This would take the description of each boxer out of the hands of human bias and place it into the desires of international law. Both of my grandmothers were nationalized American citizens. One from Italy and the other from Ireland. Each were eligible to carry US passports. Anyone who dared call either grandmother Italian or Irish was immediately corrected and were told that they were American. This was no disrespect to their former homelands but their personal preference allowable under international law. Wouldn't one think that boxers are allowed that same courtesy.

[slapbangwhallop]

why is he listed as Italian?

can any editor answer this?

[Asterix]

why is he listed as Italian?

can any editor answer this?

You've already answered it yourself.

Just to clear up the Pianeta situation. Both his parents are Italian, they emigrated to German[y] when he was six, he grew up and still lives in Germany. He holds his Italian roots close to him for those obvious reasons, and he is listed as Italian.

Not to mention the fact that Pianeta's ambition is to win the Italian Heavyweight title.

[John]

It would make life very simple if BoxRec would implement the following policy with regard to nationality.

The policy should be that a boxer is the nationality of the nation of his obtained or obtainable passport.

We don't list passports we list countries, the information that so and so has a passport from country X is not as meaningful (in my opinion) as so and so hails from country X. International law is a red herring, a boxer born and bred in the USA who has at least one Mexican parent is entitled under Mexican law to hold both Mexican and US passports, however under US law he is not entitled to hold a Mexican passport. Anyway I've had an idea on this as to how to make the data more factual, I'm going to put it to the vote on the editor forum. Wait and see ......

[earl of queensbury]

It would make life very simple if BoxRec would implement the following policy with regard to nationality.

The policy should be that a boxer is the nationality of the nation of his obtained or obtainable passport.

We don't list passports we list countries, the information that so and so has a passport from country X is not as meaningful (in my opinion) as so and so hails from country X. International law is a red herring, a boxer born and bred in the USA who has at least one Mexican parent is entitled under Mexican law to hold both Mexican and US passports, however under US law he is not entitled to hold a Mexican passport. Anyway I've had an idea on this as to how to make the data more factual, I'm going to put it to the vote on the editor forum. Wait and see ......

Dear John and the Boxrec team, having read the extremely ugly disputes concerning John Duddy, surely it would make sense to stick to what you know and leave out the information you can't provide? Why not put place of birth, place of residence, and citizenship (this is written on his passport)? This vague issue of 'nationality' is way too complex for Boxrec to handle without leading to further disputes.

The current Boxrec listings seem inconsistent at times:
Arthur Abraham - Listed as German (Born in Armenia, took German citizenship, carries German passport)
Khoren Gevor - Listed as Armenian (Born in Armenia, lives in Germany, carries German passport)
Alexander Abraham - Listed as Armenian (Born in Armenia, lives in Germany, carries Armenian passport)
Lennox Lewis - Listed as British (has dual Canadian/British citizenship) - Interestingly, Lewis also learned boxing in Canada from the age of 12 - and the country where a boxer learned to box is one of the criteria attributed to Boxrec for listing 'nationality'.
John Duddy - Listed as British (carries Irish passport)
Oleg Maskaev - Listed as Russian (Born in Kazakhstan, gained US citizenship in 2004, carries US/Russian passports)
Sinan Samil Sam - Listed as Turkish (Born and raised in Germany, lives in Germany)*
Luan Krasniqi - Listed as German (Born in Kosovo, lives in Germany)
Marco Huck - Listed As German (Born in Serbia/Montenegro, lived in Germany from the age of 9)
*This is also due to the complex citizenship laws in Germany - one is not automatically a German citizen even if one is born in Germany.

Some of the entries go strictly by passport/citizenship (Samil Sam, Arthur Abraham etc.) while others seem kind of random (particularly where dual citizenship and other issues make matters more complex).

[John]

Some of the entries go strictly by passport/citizenship (Samil Sam, Arthur Abraham etc.) while others seem kind of random (particularly where dual citizenship and other issues make matters more complex).

Germany is another problematic country, there citizenship is given by blood line not by birthplace so many Turks who were born there are not officially German. My take is that is where they come from so that is what they should be listed as.

[slapbangwhallop]

Some of the entries go strictly by passport/citizenship (Samil Sam, Arthur Abraham etc.) while others seem kind of random (particularly where dual citizenship and other issues make matters more complex).

Germany is another problematic country, there citizenship is given by blood line not by birthplace so many Turks who were born there are not officially German. My take is that is where they come from so that is what they should be listed as.

You say that but that is at odd's with what you record on your website - why is this?

[earl of queensbury]

My take is that is where they come from so that is what they should be listed as.

Arthur Abraham - Listed as German (Born in Armenia)
Sinan Samil Sam - Listed as Turkish (Born and raised in Germany)
Marco Huck - Listed As German (Born in Serbia/Montenegro)

It's true, there is a discrepancy there. I would imagine it's because this issue is decided by a board of editors, not just by John alone.
But I really wouldn't know, that's just a guess. I don't know why Boxrec are being so stubborn about John Duddy - I imagine there are some personal issues involved there - but it is really is a complex issue. In Germany, for example, even 3rd generation kids born to Turkish parents are considered Turkish (and maybe don't even have German citizenship), whereas in the United Kingdom you are British if you are born there. In the former Soviet states, a lot of ethnic Russians refuse to identify themselves as Kazhak, Uzbek or whatever, preferring to call themselves Russian even though they were not born in Russia.
It's a can of worms, which is why it's easier to go by what's on the passport (that's the internationally recognized definition of nationality). If a boxer objects, it can always be changed.

[slapbangwhallop]

My take is that is where they come from so that is what they should be listed as.

Arthur Abraham - Listed as German (Born in Armenia)
Sinan Samil Sam - Listed as Turkish (Born and raised in Germany)
Marco Huck - Listed As German (Born in Serbia/Montenegro)

It's true, there is a discrepancy there. I would imagine it's because this issue is decided by a board of editors, not just by John alone.
But I really wouldn't know, that's just a guess. I don't know why Boxrec are being so stubborn about John Duddy - I imagine there are some personal issues involved there - but it is really is a complex issue. In Germany, for example, even 3rd generation kids born to Turkish parents are considered Turkish (and maybe don't even have German citizenship), whereas in the United Kingdom you are British if you are born there. In the former Soviet states, a lot of ethnic Russians refuse to identify themselves as Kazhak, Uzbek or whatever, preferring to call themselves Russian even though they were not born in Russia.
It's a can of worms, which is why it's easier to go by what's on the passport (that's the internationally recognized definition of nationality). If a boxer objects, it can always be changed.

incorrect - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_Agreement - this LEGALLY (and morally) gave recognition of the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose; and
gave confirmation that the right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

[slapbangwhallop]

My take is that is where they come from so that is what they should be listed as.

Arthur Abraham - Listed as German (Born in Armenia)
Sinan Samil Sam - Listed as Turkish (Born and raised in Germany)
Marco Huck - Listed As German (Born in Serbia/Montenegro)

It's true, there is a discrepancy there. I would imagine it's because this issue is decided by a board of editors, not just by John alone.
But I really wouldn't know, that's just a guess. I don't know why Boxrec are being so stubborn about John Duddy - I imagine there are some personal issues involved there - but it is really is a complex issue. In Germany, for example, even 3rd generation kids born to Turkish parents are considered Turkish (and maybe don't even have German citizenship), whereas in the United Kingdom you are British if you are born there. In the former Soviet states, a lot of ethnic Russians refuse to identify themselves as Kazhak, Uzbek or whatever, preferring to call themselves Russian even though they were not born in Russia.
It's a can of worms, which is why it's easier to go by what's on the passport (that's the internationally recognized definition of nationality). If a boxer objects, it can always be changed.

yes and boxrec recognises their nationality - e.g. neither Wladimir or Vitali Klitschko were born in the Ukraine yet they are listed as Ukrainian.

[earl of queensbury]

My take is that is where they come from so that is what they should be listed as.

Arthur Abraham - Listed as German (Born in Armenia)
Sinan Samil Sam - Listed as Turkish (Born and raised in Germany)
Marco Huck - Listed As German (Born in Serbia/Montenegro)

It's true, there is a discrepancy there. I would imagine it's because this issue is decided by a board of editors, not just by John alone.
But I really wouldn't know, that's just a guess. I don't know why Boxrec are being so stubborn about John Duddy - I imagine there are some personal issues involved there - but it is really is a complex issue. In Germany, for example, even 3rd generation kids born to Turkish parents are considered Turkish (and maybe don't even have German citizenship), whereas in the United Kingdom you are British if you are born there. In the former Soviet states, a lot of ethnic Russians refuse to identify themselves as Kazhak, Uzbek or whatever, preferring to call themselves Russian even though they were not born in Russia.
It's a can of worms, which is why it's easier to go by what's on the passport (that's the internationally recognized definition of nationality). If a boxer objects, it can always be changed.

incorrect - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_Agreement - this LEGALLY (and morally) gave recognition of the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose; and
gave confirmation that the right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

Hey, man, don't deliberately misunderstand me - I was referring to persons born to parents from countries outside the the UK and Ireland! If you had read my post properly, you would have realized that I understand that the Irish issue needs addressing because it does not conform to the citizenship/nationality criteria applied on mainland Britain. As far as the Irish issue goes, I have many friends from both the south and the north, and I never heard any of them say they were 'British'. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that all of my acquaintances from Scotland, Ireland and Wales only consider themselves UK citizens second to their 'first' nationality (and a lot of the English are the same)- whenever I'm abroad, I always say I'm 'English', not 'British'.

The point I was making is, if you have let's say, Nigerian parents but you were born in Leicester, you are automatically a citizen of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland - this is in contrast to Germany, where, as John pointed out, citizenship is determined firstly by bloodline, thus you have the absurd situation that you might have parents of Turkish origin who were born in Germany, and you are also born in Germany, but you are still not legally German. A lot of the 'German' boxers are returnees to Germany from Romania and former Soviet states - they can automatically gain German citizenship if they can prove German ancestry. I think Ina Menzer and Eduard Gutknecht (both born in Kazhakstan, but clearly with German-sounding family names) are examples of this.

[slapbangwhallop]

incorrect - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_Agreement - this LEGALLY (and morally) gave recognition of the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose; and
gave confirmation that the right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

Hey, man, don't deliberately misunderstand me - I was referring to persons born to parents from countries outside the the UK and Ireland! If you had read my post properly, you would have realized that I understand that the Irish issue needs addressing because it does not conform to the citizenship/nationality criteria applied on mainland Britain. As far as the Irish issue goes, I have many friends from both the south and the north, and I never heard any of them say they were 'British'. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that all of my acquaintances from Scotland, Ireland and Wales only consider themselves UK citizens second to their 'first' nationality (and a lot of the English are the same)- whenever I'm abroad, I always say I'm 'English', not 'British'.

The point I was making is, if you have let's say, Nigerian parents but you were born in Leicester, you are automatically a citizen of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland - this is in contrast to Germany, where, as John pointed out, citizenship is determined firstly by bloodline, thus you have the absurd situation that you might have parents of Turkish origin who were born in Germany, and you are also born in Germany, but you are still not legally German. A lot of the 'German' boxers are returnees to Germany from Romania and former Soviet states - they can automatically gain German citizenship if they can prove German ancestry. I think Ina Menzer and Eduard Gutknecht (both born in Kazhakstan, but clearly with German-sounding family names) are examples of this.

I take your point -

anyway - believe it or not most people in Northern Ireland consider themselves - thats a fact. Irish people in the occupied six counties which make up Northern Ireland are a minor - it just so happens they are the majority in terms of boxing participation.

also even before the Good Friday Argeement almost everyone in Northern Ireland was already entitled to Irish citizenship under Articles 2 & 3 of the Irish constitution - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Citi ... By_descent

The GFA just formalised the situation between both countries - now if the British Government acknowledge varying nationalities and citizenship of those born in Northern Ireland then why cant Boxrec? especially as the acknowledge far more tenuous claims by other with different circumstances.