Willard-Hopkins

[raylawpc]

Robinson wrote:
Re- Hopkins vs Willard

Tom McMahon who at 5'11 and 175-180lbs who would never
have the talent of Hopkins even in 2008....and who is essentially
a smaller man than Hopkins.

Gunboat Smith who at 6'2 is taller than Bernard but is around
the same weight also...but not near the skill level of Hopkins
managed to outpoint the big giant.

While bravery and durability is a trait that Willard exhibited I
do not think he fares well against a talented, in shape, skilled
fighter regardless of size.

raylawpc wrote:

How do you think Willard fares in 1915 in a 45-rounder, no mouthpiece, and five-ounce gloves, outdoors with the temperature in the low 90s?

robinson wrote:

And I suppose Benjamin Brain, Tom Johnson, Jem Belcher would dominate
Mike Tyson, Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes under London Prize Rules ?

Or conversely how would Willard fair under modern boxing rules ...which
is what we are here to discuss anyhow ?

raylawpc wrote:

I wasn't aware that we were limited to a certain set of rules or boxing era. Is that written somewhere?

Boxing has changed through the years: Styles have changed, equipment has changed, rules have changed, and training methods have changed.

I have no idea how Willard would have done under modern rules because he was never asked to fight using those rules. By the same token, I have no idea how Hopkins would have done at the turn of the last century since he was never asked to fight under those rules or conditions.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Keep in mind, the proposed fight doesn't even use the prime Hopkins, but rather, the current version, presumably against a peak Willard. Hopkins holds a lot, nowadays. Clinching Willard will expend all energy. He's a one-minute of every round-type fighter at forty-three.

Impressively schooling Pavlik (my third-place for Upset Of The Year) & losing narrowly to Calzaghe don't convince me he would find a way to beat Willard, who's being a little under-estimated, I think.

Anyone who thinks Hopkins' chin is standing up under Willard's best blows (I know there will be some of you) needs their head checked. Next, we'll have Jake LaMotta absorbing Joe Louis' punches, or Marvin Hagler taking Mike Tyson's best shots.

[Robinson]

I am not convinced that Willard has the devastation in his fists to
defeat some one as talented or near talented as the current
Hopkins.

Do you people honestly believe that many of Willards foes that
he bested, by Dec, KO and was defeated by were any bigger
than Hopkins ?

Do you think that they were more talented than Hopkins ?

The men for example I listed, that Ray above quoted ...
were no where near as talented as Hopkins and were around the
same size, perhaps less athletic than Hopkins...yet......they beat
this man.

The KO over Johnson was impressive..whether it was real or not
is a matter of belief. But does anyone here believe that Johnson
was at his best, and was set to face a physically bigger somewhat
athletic man in Willard.

The size and weight difference between Holyfield and Valuev would be
more than when Hopkins and Willard face one another...but I personally
believe Valuev is a better fighter than Willard.

Lets say Hopkins fights at 6'1 and 175-180lbs...that is basically the
general weight of a lot of the HW's 100 years ago. Men that Willard
would have fought and would have fought him win lose draw or nc (nws).

Though I am convinced that in the said scenario, he would be in the
190's...which is what he most likely fights at after weigh in any how.

Footage of Willard against 6'1.5 200lb Frank Moran, who was a big
man in his time...a good win for Willard, but can anyone here say that
Moran is more talented than Hopkins?

Alot of the men that flirted in the ring with the HW were not big men
and were for the most part smaller or around the same size as Hopkins..

So is it really unlikely that Hopkins has it in him...in his more recent form
to defeat Jess Willard ?


I feel Carnera is a more talented fighter than Willard...and even he lost to
some smaller men who were barely HW's....

Jim Maloney who at 5'11 and 190-200lbs defeated the 6'5.5 260lb Carnera...
Is Maloney more talented than Hopkins??

I think Hopkins would do better against Willard, than his slightly smaller
predecessor Loughran gave up a great deal in weight to Carnera when
they fought.

Is my opinion that un-reasonable ?

[Robinson]

Joe Louis and Mike Tyson are different animals to Jess Willard G.I :)

[Robinson]

And speaking of Louis...lets not forget what a SMW in Conn was
able to do for most of the fight against Louis...until of course
Conn dug his toes in and went for the finish....

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I am not convinced that Willard has the devastation in his fists to
defeat some one as talented or near talented as the current
Hopkins.

Do you people honestly believe that many of Willards foes that
he bested, by Dec, KO and was defeated by were any bigger
than Hopkins ?

Do you think that they were more talented than Hopkins ?

The men for example I listed, that Ray above quoted ...
were no where near as talented as Hopkins and were around the
same size, perhaps less athletic than Hopkins...yet......they beat
this man.

--- Athletic, eh? Is that a secret code word? Could be you're on the wrong forum.

At any rate, Gunboat Smith was a full 180lbs. I'd imagine if he could make the LH or middle limit he would have gone for it, but I doubt any modern person can give us his reasoning for career choices.

Moran not a storied contender, but very game and competitive and went the distance against Johnson and Willard, so Pops going the distance against Roy and Joe is somehow the equivalent? Pops is so fast in the 110 hurdles or is it dunking a basketball now?

Me, I'm a bit more mischievous than you. I'd like to know if Louis Fink could whup Clinton Mitchell. We know that Big Jess knocked Fink down in the first fight and KOed him in the immediate rematch. Pops never went near Mitchell again, perhaps for good reason like his avoidance of the Roy rematch. Probably instinctively knew he needed all his energies for Allen and Mercado, me thinks.

Do you think he could drop on all fours like he did against SuperJoe and headbutt Willard's shins, cutting him down to Pops' level where presumably Pops' superior athleticism prevails? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Robinson]

I feel Hopkins would beat Willard. As for the other issues you have
mentioned, well you have your opinions on such matters, thats great.

I imagine hopkins winning a hard (more for physical size) match against
Willard who does alot of jab and grab's. I suppose it depends on the
ref and the 'rules'.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I feel Hopkins would beat Willard.

--- I know Iron Boy Calderon would beat Pops.

He routinely clowns big ranked fighters like Cotto and Oscar in sparring. I'd pay to see them come out to ring center and watch Pops run over to cover up on the ropes.

[raylawpc]

I suppose it depends on the ref and the 'rules'.

Okay - let's try: 45-rounds, rules and styles circa 1915, 5 ounce gloves, no mouthpieces, fought outdoors in a stadium with a temperature between 85 and 90 degrees, and let's throw in Jack Welch as referee. What do you think then?

[donnellon]

By co-incident just been reading up on Willards fights with Smith and McMahon. The Gunboat fight was close with Jess missing out on a few chances to finish the cuter Smith but McMahon(just a year before the Johnson fight) completely out boxed and outfought the giant in his victory, Willard getting just two rounds at best. It seems any decent BOXING 175-180 pounder would beat Willard at the 12-15 round distance. He had no speed of punch so his big right was immaterial until his opponent became tired and/or lost his reflexes. Now over 45 rounds its hard to pick many medium to light punchers over Willard. BTW most of Willards ko's came against big, slow HW like himself.

[raylawpc]

By co-incident just been reading up on Willards fights with Smith and McMahon. The Gunboat fight was close with Jess missing out on a few chances to finish the cuter Smith but McMahon(just a year before the Johnson fight) completely out boxed and outfought the giant in his victory, Willard getting just two rounds at best. It seems any decent BOXING 175-180 pounder would beat Willard at the 12-15 round distance. He had no speed of punch so his big right was immaterial until his opponent became tired and/or lost his reflexes. Now over 45 rounds its hard to pick many medium to light punchers over Willard. BTW most of Willards ko's came against big, slow HW like himself.

Matt, in Willard's defense, didn't he step in as a last minute substitute? I recall reading that somehwere. Maybe he wasn't in the best of condition.

[observer1]

Prime Hopkins would probably win by a UD against a Prime Willar imo.

Hopkins has a very strong granite chin, and although he is not a KO artist, is still very very strong in my opinion

Willad would probably look to KO Hopkins, but Hopkins would naturally slow the pace down, and look to counter Willard.

Back in Hopkins prime, he had very good stamina, his technique does not really require much stamina anyway, Willard would probably punch himself out and get countered all the time.

in my opinion anyway

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Hopkins has a very strong granite chin, and although he is not a KO artist, is still very very strong in my opinion

--- They're all granite chins and strong as bulls to Iron Boy.

Maybe Pops has a chance in his youth with better reflexes, but not now. Iron Boy with faster hands, reflexes and better footwork would bedevil Pops all night long like an angry gnat and maybe have time to tag that granite with some nifty grafitti art.

Next up, Iron Boy/Willard....

[dempseyfire]

Willard came as a late replacement vs McMahon and was not in shape.

Robinson's contention that Hopkins was 'far more talented and athletic' than Smith is one of the many assertions he'll simply make-up due to bias vs the old timers. Smith was a very skilled and athletic guy and I'm not convinced for a second Bernard automatically beats him at 175.

Willard from what I've seen and read is as good as Vitali Klitschko . . not as polished and inferior footwork, but a harder right hand puncher and better stamina, as well as a much better uppercut. Both had practically the same style and both had very good quick jabs for men their size.

Hopkins would surely be worn down by Jess. His prime was at 160 and style-wise he's just not busy enough.

[donnellon]

Willard was a late relpacement for Levinsky, it is true but that doesent excuse the performance. Jess had been in training for a March 17 fight with Dan Daly in Pittsburg which was called off at the last minute but rescheduled for April and anyway he was out-classed from the opening bell, it wasn't as if he faded down the stretch.

[raylawpc]

Willard was a late relpacement for Levinsky, it is true but that doesent excuse the performance. Jess had been in training for a March 17 fight with Dan Daly in Pittsburg which was called off at the last minute but rescheduled for April and anyway he was out-classed from the opening bell, it wasn't as if he faded down the stretch.

Thanks Matt.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Prime Hopkins would probably win by a UD against a Prime Willar imo.

Hopkins has a very strong granite chin, and although he is not a KO artist, is still very very strong in my opinion

Willad would probably look to KO Hopkins, but Hopkins would naturally slow the pace down, and look to counter Willard.

Back in Hopkins prime, he had very good stamina, his technique does not really require much stamina anyway, Willard would probably punch himself out and get countered all the time.

in my opinion anyway

Willard punch himself out? A man who fought Johnson in the middle of the day, in positively blazing heat (a normal thing, back then), over twenty-six rounds, is going to punch himself out against Hopkins? The discussion, btw, was using the current Hopkins, not the 2001 vintage version. Tying up Willard would be a positively exhausting affair. Hopkins' chin won't stand up to Willard's blows. Hopkins just about fights for one minute of every round, nowadays. That's not enough work to hold a man of Willard's size off for very long. For a 43-year-old Hopkins to beat a man of Willard's stature (his biggest previous opponent being, who, Calzaghe or Pavlik!?) said big man would need to be almost completely, literally hopeless. This was not Willard.

Robinson, who is the biggest man Hopkins has faced? Those fighters you mentioned got regular, routine bouts with larger men, in many instances.

[raylawpc]

Prime Hopkins would probably win by a UD against a Prime Willar imo.

Hopkins has a very strong granite chin, and although he is not a KO artist, is still very very strong in my opinion

Willad would probably look to KO Hopkins, but Hopkins would naturally slow the pace down, and look to counter Willard.

Back in Hopkins prime, he had very good stamina, his technique does not really require much stamina anyway, Willard would probably punch himself out and get countered all the time.

in my opinion anyway

Willard punch himself out? A man who fought Johnson in the middle of the day, in positively blazing heat (a normal thing, back then), over twenty-six rounds, is going to punch himself out against Hopkins? The discussion, btw, was using the current Hopkins, not the 2001 vintage version. Tying up Willard would be a positively exhausting affair. Hopkins' chin won't stand up to Willard's blows. Hopkins just about fights for one minute of every round, nowadays. That's not enough work to hold a man of Willard's size off for very long. For a 43-year-old Hopkins to beat a man of Willard's stature (his biggest previous opponent being, who, Calzaghe or Pavlik!?) said big man would need to be almost completely, literally hopeless. This was not Willard.

Robinson, who is the biggest man Hopkins has faced? Those fighters you mentioned got regular, routine bouts with larger men, in many instances.

Everybody talks about the "blazing heat" in Havana that day, but I've yet to see a contemporaneous newspaper account that makes any mention about the heat. The average temperature in Cuba for April is the high 70s, I believe.

Perhaps the idea of blazing heat comes from Johnson's claim that he covered his eyes and raised his legs off the canvas because of the brightness and canvas' heat caused by the blazing sun. That, of course, after he went into the tank.

Did anybody else say that? (Admittedly, I haven't researched the issue exhaustively.)

[Goodnight, Irene]

You see Willard punching himself out against Hopkins, do you, Ray?

[raylawpc]

You see Willard punching himself out against Hopkins, do you, Ray?

What did I write that gave you that idea, Irene?

[Robinson]

I suppose it depends on the ref and the 'rules'.

Okay - let's try: 45-rounds, rules and styles circa 1915, 5 ounce gloves, no mouthpieces, fought outdoors in a stadium with a temperature between 85 and 90 degrees, and let's throw in Jack Welch as referee. What do you think then?

Where the fighters can throw a hand ful of punches and hug one another
for a great deal of time....

then it will no doubt be ruled a Draw or a NWS.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You see Willard punching himself out against Hopkins, do you, Ray?

What did I write that gave you that idea, Irene?

You didn't. I'm asking if you agree with Observer.

[raylawpc]

You see Willard punching himself out against Hopkins, do you, Ray?

What did I write that gave you that idea, Irene?

You didn't. I'm asking if you agree with Observer.

After Willard's performance against Jack Johnson, I have a hard time seeing an in-shape Willard lose to anyone from being punched out.

[Robinson]

I shall confess I have only seen of Willard his fights
with Moran, Dempsey, Johnson and I am drawing my
conclusions from those...

What I have seen of Willard in those fights has not
impressed me at all.

He was a naturally big man, with limited skills, but
he seems to have a sense of pride which allows him
to absorb punishment and to keep going. Tough no
doubt...tough guys are common however.

As G.Irene keeps pointing out, I feel that even the
later 2008 version of Hopkins beats Willard....

NOW>...If we are going to make these fights under
old school rules...ie 45 rounds, a ref that just stands
there as a Jim Flynn head butts a Johnson type of
deal then things are in Willards favour..

BUT.... Lets say we set this for 12-15 rounds with
modern, professional officials...even a ring side doctor
wearing modern boxing gloves, mouth guard etc...

[John Galt]

From seeing Willard on video against Moran, Dempsey, and Johnson, Willard looks like a novice amateur fighter at best. Hopkins - Willard would be like a scenario that plays out regularly in gyms all around the world. A big guy comes in the gym, he fought a little somewhere, maybe in the military, maybe in prison. The big guy is awkward, he doesn't move well, he has bad balance. He gets in the ring with a skilled boxer. What happens next is predictable.

Hopkins, the skilled boxer, could play with Willard, make him miss, frustrate him, and take him out whenever he wanted to.