British Top 30 P4P January 2009

[Horse]

Since when did Northern Ireland stop being part of the United Kingdom? Or maybe McCloskey should hand back his Lonsdale Belt?

He shouldn't have been eligible to fight for it anyway

Why not?

The opponents have been poor and there is only a few in that EBU division. Munroe , Hunter , Marsh , Dunne , Maludrottu and Martinez until he beats one of the other fighters apart from Martinez then we can judge him

Good point about the weak defences, but I have to keep the list moving otherwise inactivity is not punished. Munroe has kept on defending his title so, I felt I should slowly move him up.

Napa is meant to be defending his European title this Month, so maybe he can overtake Munroe if his victory is impressive.

[stujones]

Yes, well perhaps I could have entered him into the list before. I have not seen that many of McCloskey's fights, so it is difficult to judge how good he is without seeing much of the guy. I heard his fight with Wright was close, so I think that went against him in my decision not to enter him into the list on that occasion.

Yes, but when you think he has just beaten a European class openent, ontop of his wins over I would say top 20 opposition (world) in Bezan and Garnacia - how he is ranked below someone who squeezed past Jon Simpson? I would say McCloskey has had 3 wins over top 20 (at the time) fighters.

He should easily be in the upper echelons of the 11-20 list, based on his Lynes win alone.

[metropol]

Sorry for hassling you horse but since when did was northern Ireland not a part of Ireland? Weve been through this before and dont want to waste much time on it . You agreed then to put the(Irish) beside the name of Irish fighters but you seem to have forgotten mcgee, mccloskey and lindsay. Will you rectify this?

[Horse]

Thaxton is EBU champion, Rhodes just beat a world ranked fighter.

Thaxton is the EBU champion, but Melero didn't seem very impressive; and Thaxton had his bottom handed to him by Romanov earlier in the year in a fight for the same title.

Rhodes beat Vuma who didn't seem to be that great, whether he was World ranked or not.

Arthur has proven more in recent years than either of these two fighters, in my opinion. So, it will take more wins for Thaxton and Rhodes before they overtake Arthur.

[stujones]

What so great about losing to Cook, struggling against Foster Jnr, and Kogoladze (who got KO'd in a round in his next fight). Thats Arthur's recent form - not much cop even if it has the rediculous baubble of the WBO title.

[Horse]

Thanks for the reasoning on Murray and Jennings

No problem.

- i'll agree its been a frustating year for both fighters but i have to point out you have khan at number 17? Surely a 1st round ko loss, and beating 4 feathers/super feathers (as well as being dropped by one of them) has to put him lower than an unbeaten british champion and a former british champ with one disputed loss who is fighting for a world title in 8 weeks?

Khan has wins over Limond, Lawton, Earl, St. Clair, Kristjansen, Gomez and Fagan. Murray has wins over Mendoza, Sarouna, Hickman, Hamidi and Meager. In my opinion, despite the loss, Khan has the much better record.

As for Jennings - he has simply not beaten enough good fighters in the last 3 years to maintain his place in top 30. He seems to have the talent, but wins over Takaloo and Minter (who at the moment are both rated outside the top 10 in the domestic Welterweight division) is just not good enough for someone as supposedly talented as Jennings.

Also, To follow your reasoning on cook, Jennings holds a win over the current european champ.

I am not sure what you mean by my reasoning on Cook, sorry. As for Jennings previous win over the now European champion, Jackiewicz: His win over Jackiewicz was over 4 years ago and I am not sure how much extra kudos Jennings should receive for that victory now, a little more perhaps but not a great deal.

Is your list based solely on 2008's achievements or an overall pound for pound list based on ability?

The list is based on overall career achievement (and demonstrated ability), with more recent achievements counting for more than older ones.

[Horse]

Yes, but when you think he has just beaten a European class openent, ontop of his wins over I would say top 20 opposition (world) in Bezan and Garnacia - how he is ranked below someone who squeezed past Jon Simpson? I would say McCloskey has had 3 wins over top 20 (at the time) fighters.

Well, when you put it like that it does seem harsh on him. I, though didn't consider those fighters to be top 20 in the World (I am not saying they were not), so I just thought that his wins over Bazan and Garnica were good solid wins over good international journeymen.

As for Appleby being above McCloskey - Appleby is the number 1 Featherweight in Britain, McCloskey is the number 4 Light Welterweight in Britiain. This had a bearing on my decision.

He should easily be in the upper echelons of the 11-20 list, based on his Lynes win alone.

I didn't rate Lynes as highly as some others did. Lynes only became the European champion by beating Mutley, who had not shown that he was European class. Although Lynes defeat to Branco was controversial, it didn't really prove he was true European class either. So, for me a win over Lynes is not enough to earn a spot in the top 15 of my rankings.

[jayc]

Thanks for the response horse, i think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the Khan/Murray issue.
Hopefully both Murray & Jennings have a better year this year and push themselves up the rankings.

[jayc]

Can i just point out though - ig we are going on the level of oposition, that Kell Brook has only beaten 4 fighters with winning records in his whole career. And i'm a fan, but felt i should point it out. I'd put John Murrays win over mendoza and jennings wins over pryce etc above him on that criteria.

[Horse]

Sorry for hassling you horse but since when did was northern Ireland not a part of Ireland? Weve been through this before and dont want to waste much time on it . You agreed then to put the(Irish) beside the name of Irish fighters but you seem to have forgotten mcgee, mccloskey and lindsay. Will you rectify this?

Magee, McCloskey and Lindsay have all decided to go the British title route. Which would suggest that, at least to some extent, they accept some level of a British identity.

I am not sure whether these fighters hold a British passport or not, but the BBBofC deems them British enough to fight for the British title and that is good enough for me.

The "(Irish)" notation is for fighters like Duddy and Dunne who are inelligible for a British title shot, or who reject that option due to an Irish identity.

[Horse]

What so great about losing to Cook, struggling against Foster Jnr, and Kogoladze (who got KO'd in a round in his next fight). Thats Arthur's recent form - not much cop even if it has the rediculous baubble of the WBO title.

It might not be great, but it is not awful. He might not have been doing too much recently, but he earned a high ranking before that as a strong European champion. I am not just going to forget that because of a lame recent run.

[Horse]

Thanks for the response horse, i think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the Khan/Murray issue.
Hopefully both Murray & Jennings have a better year this year and push themselves up the rankings.

Yes, I hope they both have a good one.

Can i just point out though - ig we are going on the level of oposition, that Kell Brook has only beaten 4 fighters with winning records in his whole career. And i'm a fan, but felt i should point it out. I'd put John Murrays win over mendoza and jennings wins over pryce etc above him on that criteria.

Brook beat McIntyre who was ranked in the upper 20's on my list before Brook beat him. If Murray beat a ranked fighter then I would find it difficult not to include him. Anyway I think Brook's win over McIntyre was better than Murray's over Mendoza (which happened in 2005).

Jennings win over Pryce was over 3 years ago, it is still a good win but Jennings has to keep winning to stay on the list. If I refused to drop Jennings any lower when he dropped towards the bottom of the list, then I couldn't have let any new fighters on the list, which would have messed up the rankings.

[slapbangwhallop]

Why haven't McCloskey and Lindsay got Irish next to their names

Since when did Northern Ireland stop being part of the United Kingdom? Or maybe McCloskey should hand back his Lonsdale Belt?

Gobbles, without getting into the same debate that has gone on on the Records and Queries forum, here are the basics -

1. Since the Good Friday Argeement (its nearly 10 years old now so not exactly new!) the nationality of those from Northern Ireland is legally treated different to those in the rest of the UK.

2. Most boxers born in Northern Ireland are from a nationalist/republican background and would therefore opt for Irish nationality and not British - the only boxer in the Irish top 20 from NI that would consider themselves British is Neil Sinclair although I stand to be corrected on that point - and Scott Belshaw also although not in my top 20. As far as I am aware Duddy, McCloskey, Rogan, McKay, Lindsay and Haughian etc all would consider themselves Irish.

3. They still qualify to fight for a British and/or Irish title no matter which nationality they choose.

Hope that clear that up.

regards

[slapbangwhallop]

Why haven't McCloskey and Lindsay got Irish next to their names

Both are eligible for the British title and have decided to go that route.

Thats not really logical - all fighters from NI qualify to fight for a British title irrespective of what nationality they opt for.

Matthew Macklin and Jamie Moore went down the Irish title route - does that make them Irish?

[slapbangwhallop]

Sorry for hassling you horse but since when did was northern Ireland not a part of Ireland? Weve been through this before and dont want to waste much time on it . You agreed then to put the(Irish) beside the name of Irish fighters but you seem to have forgotten mcgee, mccloskey and lindsay. Will you rectify this?

Magee, McCloskey and Lindsay have all decided to go the British title route. Which would suggest that, at least to some extent, they accept some level of a British identity.

I am not sure whether these fighters hold a British passport or not, but the BBBofC deems them British enough to fight for the British title and that is good enough for me.

The "(Irish)" notation is for fighters like Duddy and Dunne who are inelligible for a British title shot, or who reject that option due to an Irish identity.

Rogan said he would happily fight for a British title - he is probably one of the strongest in terms of his opinions with respect to his "Irishness"

Just because a fighter fights for a British title to progress his career doesnt mean that he negate his Irish identity - and vice versa

[Horse]

Thats not really logical - all fighters from NI qualify to fight for a British title irrespective of what nationality they opt for.

I was not sure what the situation was with those fighters with an Irish nationality. Does anyone have confirmation that what sligobhoy67 says is true?

Matthew Macklin and Jamie Moore went down the Irish title route - does that make them Irish?

If a person wanted to put Moore and Macklin down in an Irish list, after they had fought for Irish titles, then that would be understandable.

[Horse]

Rogan said he would happily fight for a British title - he is probably one of the strongest in terms of his opinions with respect to his "Irishness"

Just because a fighter fights for a British title to progress his career doesnt mean that he negate his Irish identity - and vice versa

Yes, but if these fighters fight for the British, title surely they won't be upset if they appear in British P4P rankings.

Fighters like Dunne and Duddy who are not going the British route (whether they are able to or not), might be a bit miffed if they appear in British rankings. That is why I thought it was reasonable to put "Irish" next to their names on the list.

I first allowed "Irish" fighters like Dunne and Duddy onto the list on September 2007. I would always have included fighters like McCloskey and Lindsay before that, because they went down the British title route. I can't have British champions ineligible for the British rankings, that would make the list silly.

[slapbangwhallop]

Rogan said he would happily fight for a British title - he is probably one of the strongest in terms of his opinions with respect to his "Irishness"

Just because a fighter fights for a British title to progress his career doesnt mean that he negate his Irish identity - and vice versa

Yes, but if these fighters fight for the British, title surely they won't be upset if they appear in British P4P rankings.

Fighters like Dunne and Duddy who are not going the British route (whether they are able to or not), might be a bit miffed if they appear in British rankings. That is why I thought it was reasonable to put "Irish" next to their names on the list.

I first allowed "Irish" fighters like Dunne and Duddy onto the list on September 2007. I would always have included fighters like McCloskey and Lindsay before that, because they went down the British title route. I can't have British champions ineligible for the British rankings, that would make the list silly.

Like I say - maybe you should change Moore and Macklin to Irish because they went down the Irish route!!

Dunne doesnt and cant qualify for a British title as he was born in the Republic of Ireland and therefore not eligable to choose either nationality.

Like I say in this instance its not a big deal, however the although I also doubt they would be miffed at being on a British P4P list I still think it would be correct to acknowlege their nationality in the correct manner. Like I said above the GFA entitles them to fight for a British title yet still retain their Irish nationality. A situation which is unique to fighters from Northern Ireland - with the possible exception of those from Puerto Rico.

Anyway its good to see more "Micks" on the list.

[BigEars]

I dont think Rendall Munroe should be as high as 10.
Good fighter but alot better British fighters out there.
Andy morris beat him easy, fairplay it was up at featherwight.
Munroe Beat Martinez good win but he aint fought anyone since.

Munroe is the European champion and has defended his belt three times. There are not many other fighters in Britain who are doing better than that.

The opponents have been poor and there is only a few in that EBU division. Munroe , Hunter , Marsh , Dunne , Maludrottu and Martinez until he beats one of the other fighters apart from Martinez then we can judge him

Mayhar Monshipour is back aswell, he's another of the top European Super-Bantamweights.

Considering you have:
Munroe
Dunne
Maludrottu
Monshipour
Martinez
Hunter

Marsh
Parodi
Bedak
Pickering

fighting on the European Super-Bantamweight scene and Munroe has only fought Martinez, Bouaita, Matirosian and Trotta.
He certainly has plenty more to prove. He lost plenty of rounds and looked terrible against the very very average Matirosian and lost the first two rounds before taking over against another poor opponent in Trotta. The Martinez and Callaghan fights are the only ones where he has looked impressive.

[Horse]

Like I say in this instance its not a big deal, however the although I also doubt they would be miffed at being on a British P4P list I still think it would be correct to acknowlege their nationality in the correct manner. Like I said above the GFA entitles them to fight for a British title yet still retain their Irish nationality. A situation which is unique to fighters from Northern Ireland - with the possible exception of those from Puerto Rico.

Anyway its good to see more "Micks" on the list.

A big problem is that I don't know whether most of these Northern Irish boxers have chosen a British or Irish nationality.

So, I would prefer to leave it as it is for the "British route" Northern Irish boxers, and continue to put "(Irish)" next to "Irish route" boxers.

[slapbangwhallop]

Like I say in this instance its not a big deal, however the although I also doubt they would be miffed at being on a British P4P list I still think it would be correct to acknowlege their nationality in the correct manner. Like I said above the GFA entitles them to fight for a British title yet still retain their Irish nationality. A situation which is unique to fighters from Northern Ireland - with the possible exception of those from Puerto Rico.

Anyway its good to see more "Micks" on the list.

A big problem is that I don't know whether most of these Northern Irish boxers have chosen a British or Irish nationality.

So, I would prefer to leave it as it is for the "British route" Northern Irish boxers, and continue to put "(Irish)" next to "Irish route" boxers.

An eroneous approach if you ask me!

So if Martin Rogan fought for a British title you would list him as British?

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Fvpx3iLO7KA/SHy0D ... wins-1.jpg

[slapbangwhallop]

Eamonn Magee fought for a British and Commonwealth title - would he be British?

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/2789925 ... CFC4C15FBB

[Horse]

An eroneous approach if you ask me!

So if Martin Rogan fought for a British title you would list him as British?

Yes.

Eamonn Magee fought for a British and Commonwealth title - would he be British?

He was on my first list back in May 2006.

[slapbangwhallop]

An eroneous approach if you ask me!

So if Martin Rogan fought for a British title you would list him as British?

Yes.

Eamonn Magee fought for a British and Commonwealth title - would he be British?

He was on my first list back in May 2006.

I rest my case!

[Asterix]

sligobhoy, Do you have an issue with someone from Northern Ireland being called British? Does it matter?