P4P Understanding....

[Spud]

P4P understanding --- is the title of the thread.

To answer - its opinion and that is it!!!

[Cannibal]

Usually it just ends up being the consensus of a few different magazines and publications.

[banjo]

I think that would have made him #1, I mean Pacman is only #1 because PBF retired, but another big win for Pac and he claims it by right, you know?

Honestly, I think Pac has a better record than Floyd. He has been beaten, but his best wins are better than Floyd's best wins. The reason that Floyd was #1 was he was perceived to be unbeatable with his skills, despite probably having the most intelligently selected opponents in recent history.

He started getting P4P traction after stepping up to 140. He beat Corley and Bruseles. No one that anyone else in the top 10 P4P wouldn't beat. If I remember right, Corley even rocked him in that fight.

Then he fought Gatti in a one sided fight. Gatti shouldn't have even been in the same ring with someone like Floyd. Gatti was one of the bigger over achievers in recent boxing history and was pretty much on his way out when this fight was made. It just turned into a showcase for Floyd to tee off on a brave fighter who could barely land. Very similar to the performance Pac gave against DLH but I would give Pac far more credit for his. Never the less, Floyd got more plaudits and praise for this.

Then he jumped up in weight before even fighting ANY of the top guys at 140, and took on a shot Sharmba Mitchell and then struggled a bit against Zab Judah who was coming off the back of a loss to Baldomir, then Baldomir himself who was little more than a journeyman who got hold of an inconsistent Judah.

Then he took the pension fund fight with DLH, who didn't have enough gas to last the pace of a full 12 but still pushed Mayweather pretty close. DLH had lost 2 out of 5 in the build up to this, and arguably lost 3 out of 5 depending on how you scored the Sturm fight.

Then he fought Hatton, who was probably the only top fighter he really fought in his prime during his perceived P4P #1 status, but only after Hatton had come out of his comfort zone weight and had a ref that wouldn't let him fight his style. Hatton, also, was probably made for Floyd.

Then Floyd retired without fighting ANY of the best at 147 at the time. His best win was probably over a prime Castillo at Lightweight. But for the period of 140 up, I think he gets FAR too much creidt for the guys he beat. I do think that he is one of the most naturally gifted fighters around, but his CV doesn't show it.

Very true, the best fighter on Floyds record is a semi-retired De La Hoya.

[stujones]

Amazing to think that geniune champions like Gatti and Baldomir didn't deserve to share the ring with Floyd. Some people considered Gatti the #2 140 fighter at the time, behind Hatton.

Baldomir was the lineal 147 champion, and Judah was considered the guy with the most skill. Margarito was beating the likes of Lujan and Gomez at that stage.

[Cannibal]

Amazing to think that geniune champions like Gatti and Baldomir didn't deserve to share the ring with Floyd. Some people considered Gatti the #2 140 fighter at the time, behind Hatton.

Baldomir was the lineal 147 champion, and Judah was considered the guy with the most skill. Margarito was beating the likes of Lujan and Gomez at that stage.

I remember at the time, that Hatton was trying to line up a fight with Gatti. It was a personal dream fight for him, but people all over were slating him for taking the easy option by considering it, and then Mayweather demolishing him put an end to any possible Hatton/Gatti fight.

I doubt very many people ranked Gatti as division number 2 at the time and nearly nobody gave him a chance against either Mayweather or Hatton and in 2005, Mayweather, Hatton, Tszyu and Cotto would have all been considered ahead of him with the likes of Vivian Harris before losing to Maussa probably considered on par.

I like Gatti, he was an exciting fighter who never shrugged a challenge and put bums on seats, and he was usually good enough to hold a version of the world title, but he did have an obvious limit to how far he could rise even in his prime, and I feel Mayweather got him while he was on the slide, although I think he would have done much the same to a prime Gatti as well.

[EddieShredder]

Hatton at 147 again?

Current titlists at 147:
Berto, maybe he can beat him, certainly more experienced.
Williams - not a chance, too big
Margarito - no chance, too durable and strong
Clottey - I dont reckon so, too much for Hatton

other good fighters at 147
Mosley - yeah, beatable but ask me again after the Margo fight
Judah - beatable as well, but isnt the same marquee name he used to be.

But thats my point mate, for him to be truly recognised as the best fighter in the world, he should be able to beat fighters at that level in the weight class immediately above him. Thats what P4P no1's do

Thats wholly inaccurate. What is the concept of the pound 4 pound 'title' about?... Its about comparing top fighters (usually from different divisions) and predicting who would prevail in a fight should the advantage of weight be removed (e.g. both fighters were naturally the same size).

Hatton fighting at 147 means that straight away he's putting himself at a weight disadvantage againt his opponents.

A fighter doesnt have to take on and beat fighters from the weight divisions above to be the p4p no.1 because that is essentially a contradiction of the whole concept (a subjective, mythical concept).

I think an establised and dominant champion at one definitive weight (e.g. Kosta Tszyu 1999 - 2003) has just as legitimate an argument for being considered p4p no.1 than a multiple weight world champion such as Floyd Mayweather.

In any event, Hatton would not get anymore credibility from beating any of the active fighters at 147 than he would for beating Pacman at 140.

I see what you're getting at - but the top P4P'ers of this generation have all gone up and down in weight and won titles - so to be better than them, and therefore no1, you should surely have to do the same...

Regarding your last statement... you're honestly saying Hatton wouldn't get more credibility for going up and beating Margarito, than he would for beating Pacman at 140??

[DG.]

If Hatton beats Pacman he is NOT the best P4P.

He can only fight at 140 and the others guys who have held the P4P have won in more than 1 division apart from Heavyweight.*

RJJ
*Holyfield
PBF
Pernell Whittaker
Pacman
Hopkins
Anna Kournikova ( DLH)

* Cruiser and Heavy


WTF has Hatton done apart from beat past their best or mediocre fighters?

Hatton - fight Judah - Cotto - Cintron - Bradley - Clottey - Witter etc etc.

Fight your way into contention FFS

Cherry picking his way to the P4P? after dodging so many fighters in his career? Urkel - Corley - Witter etc.

Nah!

[m1kee50]

when bhop was #1 he had only fought at 160

[DG.]

when bhop was #1 he had only fought at 160

He did not deserve the P4P title back them imo. but he has shown he can win titles as high as 175. Hatton can not get to 147 without laying on the floor.

[m1kee50]

when bhop was #1 he had only fought at 160

He did not deserve the P4P title back them imo. but he has shown he can win titles as high as 175. Hatton can not get to 147 without laying on the floor.

so when was Hopkins #1 then? PBF or Pacman has been #1 since Hops left 160

[DG.]

when bhop was #1 he had only fought at 160

He did not deserve the P4P title back them imo. but he has shown he can win titles as high as 175. Hatton can not get to 147 without laying on the floor.

so when was Hopkins #1 then? PBF or Pacman has been #1 since Hops left 160

I think some had him at number 1 when he beat won the Middleweight tournament?

Not me!

[liamlion]

..Regarding your last statement... you're honestly saying Hatton wouldn't get more credibility for going up and beating Margarito, than he would for beating Pacman at 140??

Definitely! Pacman is the consensus no.1 p4p in the world - Margarito is not.

Dont get me wrong, if Hatton beat Margarito he would receive some huge attention, but nothing on the level to what Hatton would receive were he to beat Pacman.

Essentially more people give a shit about Hatton-Pacman than Hatton-Margarito.

[EddieShredder]

..Regarding your last statement... you're honestly saying Hatton wouldn't get more credibility for going up and beating Margarito, than he would for beating Pacman at 140??

Definitely! Pacman is the consensus no.1 p4p in the world - Margarito is not.

Dont get me wrong, if Hatton beat Margarito he would receive some huge attention, but nothing on the level to what Hatton would receive were he to beat Pacman.

Essentially more people give a shit about Hatton-Pacman than Hatton-Margarito.

More people give a shit, yes.... but it's way more of an ask to beat Margarito, therefore would be way more of an achievement.

[liamlion]

..Regarding your last statement... you're honestly saying Hatton wouldn't get more credibility for going up and beating Margarito, than he would for beating Pacman at 140??

Definitely! Pacman is the consensus no.1 p4p in the world - Margarito is not.

Dont get me wrong, if Hatton beat Margarito he would receive some huge attention, but nothing on the level to what Hatton would receive were he to beat Pacman.

Essentially more people give a shit about Hatton-Pacman than Hatton-Margarito.

More people give a shit, yes.... but it's way more of an ask to beat Margarito, therefore would be way more of an achievement.

Physically yeah, due to the shear natural size difference between the two. But IMO Pacman is the better boxer in comparison with Margarito (which is generally the consenus) therefore I attach more value to Hatton beating Pacman than I do in Hatton beating Margarito.

[Counter-puncher]

Hatton at 147 again?

Current titlists at 147:
Berto, maybe he can beat him, certainly more experienced.
Williams - not a chance, too big
Margarito - no chance, too durable and strong
Clottey - I dont reckon so, too much for Hatton

other good fighters at 147
Mosley - yeah, beatable but ask me again after the Margo fight
Judah - beatable as well, but isnt the same marquee name he used to be.

But thats my point mate, for him to be truly recognised as the best fighter in the world, he should be able to beat fighters at that level in the weight class immediately above him. Thats what P4P no1's do

but imagine if Hatton goes 4-0 at 140 against Pacman, Kotelnik, Bradley and JMM....

at maximum, he would only ever take two of those fights (pacand JMM)

[DG.]

Hatton at 147 again?

Current titlists at 147:
Berto, maybe he can beat him, certainly more experienced.
Williams - not a chance, too big
Margarito - no chance, too durable and strong
Clottey - I dont reckon so, too much for Hatton

other good fighters at 147
Mosley - yeah, beatable but ask me again after the Margo fight
Judah - beatable as well, but isnt the same marquee name he used to be.

But thats my point mate, for him to be truly recognised as the best fighter in the world, he should be able to beat fighters at that level in the weight class immediately above him. Thats what P4P no1's do

100% agree!

[stujones]

So Hagler was never P4P number #1. Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't for years..... no true heavyweight can ever become P4P number #1.

That is the whole purpose of the P4P is to be the best P4P.... a mythical idea on who the best would be if everyone was the same weight. Yes sometimes, when someone moves up from Flyweight and beats a top ten P4Per who is a light middle, then yes he should be considered #1 - especially as he has beaten lots of great fighters in the interim period. However, it is not the ONLY criteria.

The top 3 P4P fighters of 1986 were Chavez, Hagler, Curry - champion in one weight only at the time (I believe).

[liamlion]

So Hagler was never P4P number #1. Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't for years..... no true heavyweight can ever become P4P number #1.

That is the whole purpose of the P4P is to be the best P4P.... a mythical idea on who the best would be if everyone was the same weight. Yes sometimes, when someone moves up from Flyweight and beats a top ten P4Per who is a light middle, then yes he should be considered #1 - especially as he has beaten lots of great fighters in the interim period. However, it is not the ONLY criteria.

The top 3 P4P fighters of 1986 were Chavez, Hagler, Curry - champion in one weight only at the time (I believe).

Thats exactly my understanding of the p4p concept.

[DG.]

So Hagler was never P4P number #1. Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't for years..... no true heavyweight can ever become P4P number #1.

That is the whole purpose of the P4P is to be the best P4P.... a mythical idea on who the best would be if everyone was the same weight. Yes sometimes, when someone moves up from Flyweight and beats a top ten P4Per who is a light middle, then yes he should be considered #1 - especially as he has beaten lots of great fighters in the interim period. However, it is not the ONLY criteria.

The top 3 P4P fighters of 1986 were Chavez, Hagler, Curry - champion in one weight only at the time (I believe).

Holyfield and Tyson were P4P Number 1 because of the manner in which they torw uo the opposition.

As someome mentioned - if you are dominant then you can become Number 1, Hatton never faces the toughest in his own division, Pacman is not even a proven lt welter.

KT was old and inactive.

Castillo SHOT

Laxcano?

Urango?

Wake up, Hatton gets these biog fioghts because he is POPULAR!!


He is not even P4P Top Ten.

[Hagler2002]

How dare you

Ricky is just like the bloke next door! he will become p4p number 1 when he smashes that fraud Pacquiao.

[DG.]

How dare you

Ricky is just like the bloke next door! he will become p4p number 1 when he smashes that fraud Pacquiao.

Hatton is just like the bloke next door if the bloke next door dodges the best fighters feasts on smaller older fighters and has £20M in nthe bank.

[Hagler2002]

Who has Ricky dodged?

[DG.]

Who has Ricky dodged?

Witter for the British/WBC
Urkal for the European
Corley for the WBO
Cotto for the WBO ( Not ready)
PBF for YEARS 'Not ready'!

All facts.

All this talk of Hatton being great is a MYTH.

He cherry picks and has never FOUGHT THE BEST AVAILABLE.

PBF WAS A MONEY FIGHT HE KNEW HE WOULD LOSE - AS HE SAID 'HE MIGHT LEAD ME A MERRY DANCE BUT HE WON'T KNOCK ME OUT'.....WORNG!!

Hatton is a Fwank Warren product.

A David Haye type fighter he is not.

Hatton is a cherry picker and os allwoeed to do it because he is popular and makes money....just like DLH.

[banjo]

Who has Ricky dodged?

Witter for the British/WBC
Urkal for the European
Corley for the WBO
Cotto for the WBO ( Not ready)
PBF for YEARS 'Not ready'!

All facts.

All this talk of Hatton being great is a MYTH.

He cherry picks and has never FOUGHT THE BEST AVAILABLE.

PBF WAS A MONEY FIGHT HE KNEW HE WOULD LOSE - AS HE SAID 'HE MIGHT LEAD ME A MERRY DANCE BUT HE WON'T KNOCK ME OUT'.....WORNG!!

Hatton is a Fwank Warren product.

A David Haye type fighter he is not.

Hatton is a cherry picker and os allwoeed to do it because he is popular and makes money....just like DLH.

Hatton is clever you see, he went into the Mayweather fight as a big underdog and not many people would have backed him to win and Hatton knows this but he knew he'd make a fortune and as with any sport the result is not set in stone is it? Just imagine if Hatton just managed to land a belter of a shot that cracked Mayweathers ribs, it becomes a different fight then doesn't it. Anyone who turns down an opportunity to face the best in the world no matter how small a chance they have would be clinically insane.

[banjo]

Also IMO the Miguel Cotto who was buzzed repeatedly in his last few fights at 140lbs would have lost to Hatton