Luther McCarty vs Jack Johnson 1913

[Robinson]

The great white hope McCarty does not take a 'tune up' fight against
the dangerous Canadion Arthur Pelkey. Instead he gets a fight against
the worlds heavy weight champion Jack Johnson.

How do you gent's see this fight playing out ?

As they weigh in at the time of the fight 1913.

Luther McCarty, 6'4, 200lbs (19-3-1)

Vs

Jack Johnson, 6'1.5, 215lbs (50-5-8)

The fight has been set for 20 rounds.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

The great white hope McCarty does not take a 'tune up' fight against
the dangerous Canadion Arthur Pelkey. Instead he gets a fight against
the worlds heavy weight champion Jack Johnson.

How do you gent's see this fight playing out ?

--- Did you not understand the result of Pelkey?

At any rate, as I posted on the other thread, the top four contenders to Johnson had better are near better record's against Johnson's self selected title opponents. McCarty still a novice in boxing terms was already 4-0-0, 2KO, 1 NC having met and beat Moran before Johnson ever did and holding his own against Willard.

McCarty's manager fancied his chances and was in negotiations with Johnson when Lute passed. I figure Johnson got soft after the Jeffries bout made him a rich man. That's where all his troubles start really, he just wasn't facing top opposition to be found out yet.

[HomicideHenry]

Had McCarty not also been a western performer, doing rodeo, he may very well have lived, and defeated Pelkey and others. From what I have heard, he fell off a horse and was injured pretty bad, and was advised to not fight for a while. He disregarded the advice, and went ahead with the Pelkey bout anyways. The light blow to the head, was the final straw, making the already damaged vertebrae in McCarty's neck completely destroyed, causing the fatal hemmoraghe that killed him in the ring.

I believe, otherwise, he would have defeated Pelkey and retained his 'white champion' status, and probably would have defeated the likes of Gunboat Smith and Bombardier Billy Wells, who he was in negotiations with, and more than likely eventually would have drawn the assignment to face off with Johnson, and not Jess willard.

How would it have played out, considering the 45 round schedule that Willard-Johnson was under? He was a better boxer than Willard, so in my mind, the defeat of Johnson would have came sooner than the 26 rounds it took big Jess. If it was under 15 rounds, I imagine, McCarty would have won a split decision.

[dempseyfire]

McCarty and Willard had basically the same level of experience when they met so I don't understand how that result is brushed aside as Luther being 'green' . . .to me it says that while McCarty undoubtly was the greater talent I don't think skill-wise he was there enough to beat even a 1913 Johnson (who was more interested in the nightlife than training), who easily outpointed Willard for 20 rounds. Morris, Moran, and Kaufman were all tough guys but not very scientific. A bout vs the skillful Smith would've answered a lot of questions.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

McCarty and Willard had basically the same level of experience when they met so I don't understand how that result is brushed aside as Luther being 'green' . . .to me it says that while McCarty undoubtly was the greater talent I don't think skill-wise he was there enough to beat even a 1913 Johnson (who was more interested in the nightlife than training), who easily outpointed Willard for 20 rounds. Morris, Moran, and Kaufman were all tough guys but not very scientific. A bout vs the skillful Smith would've answered a lot of questions.

--- We know now that the 21 yr old McCarty was not yet fully physically matured is probably the relevant "green" being discussed.

Edit: [Gunboat] and McVea were running buddies with Johnson and seemed to defer heavily to him, so it's unlikely they wanted to challenge his title. However, Langford, Jeannette, Smith, McVeaand obviously Carpentier were in France and all open to Johnson. Carpentier defeats Smith and loses a competive match against Jeannette. Langford beat's Jeannette for the French recognized world title having stripped Johnson supposedly. Musta reinstated him for Moran and Battling Johnson the next year.

Smith started boxing after Johnson wins the title, and compiled a 54-13-6 record with a 4-0, 2 KO record against Johnson title challengers Willard, Ross, and Flynn. Also wins and loses to Langford, Levinsky, Carp, and Jack Dillon

Enter Dillon who started months before Johnson wrested his title, compiled a 118-7-6 record during Johnson's reign, 1-0-1 against Flynn. Also beat HOFers Klaus/Levinsky in a series, as well as Gunboat, Wienert, and Porky Flynn yet he never gets mentioned. All these fighters much more worthy and dangerous than Ross, Obrien, Battling Johnson, Moran, Flynn, and Jeff, though Jeff can be excused for all the silly money thrown about in a megafight.

The guys with best chances are 1. Langford, 2. McCarty, 3. Wills, 4. Jeannette, 5. Carp, 6. Dillon as I see the order of natural attributes and experience. Obviously McCarty didn't pan out, Willard whom I didn't include because he did win, and McVea and Smith eliminated for the mentioned friendships.

[dempseyfire]

McCarty and Willard had basically the same level of experience when they met so I don't understand how that result is brushed aside as Luther being 'green' . . .to me it says that while McCarty undoubtly was the greater talent I don't think skill-wise he was there enough to beat even a 1913 Johnson (who was more interested in the nightlife than training), who easily outpointed Willard for 20 rounds. Morris, Moran, and Kaufman were all tough guys but not very scientific. A bout vs the skillful Smith would've answered a lot of questions.

--- We know now that the 21 yr old McCarty was not yet fully physically matured is probably the relevant "green" being discussed.

McCarty and McVea were running buddies with Johnson and seemed to defer heavily to him, so it's unlikely they wanted to challenge his title. However, Langford, Jeannette, Smith, McVeaand obviously Carpentier were in France and all open to Johnson. Carpentier defeats Smith and loses a competive match against Jeannette. Langford beat's Jeannette for the French recognized world title having stripped Johnson supposedly. Musta reinstated him for Moran and Battling Johnson the next year.

Smith started boxing after Johnson wins the title, and compiled a 54-13-6 record with a 4-0, 2 KO record against Johnson title challengers Willard, Ross, and Flynn. Also wins and loses to Langford, Levinsky, Carp, and Jack Dillon

Enter Dillon who started months before Johnson wrested his title, compiled a 118-7-6 record during Johnson's reign, 1-0-1 against Flynn. Also beat HOFers Klaus/Levinsky in a series, as well as Gunboat, Wienert, and Porky Flynn yet he never gets mentioned. All these fighters much more worthy and dangerous than Ross, Obrien, Battling Johnson, Moran, Flynn, and Jeff, though Jeff can be excused for all the silly money thrown about in a megafight.

The guys with best chances are 1. Langford, 2. McCarty, 3. Wills, 4. Jeannette, 5. Carp, 6. Dillon as I see the order of natural attributes and experience. Obviously McCarty didn't pan out, Willard whom I didn't include because he did win, and McVea and Smith eliminated for the mentioned friendships.

You have a point about the age.

I don't see Carp having any greater claim than Moran. Moran had bested Coffey who had ended Smith's tear through the HWs. Also, Johnson fought Ross and O'Brian well before the names you mentioned had done anything in the division save Langford.

[Robinson]

Is their any footage of McCarty available ?

He is a solid looking guy from the pics I have seen.

[dempseyfire]

Is their any footage of McCarty available ?

He is a solid looking guy from the pics I have seen.

Nope.

[Ambling Alp]

I think McCarty would have given Johnson trouble. I think Johnson would have given him a shot. I also don't fault Johnson for not fighting Wills because Wills wasn't a contender until right at the end of Johnson's reign.

Obviously as we have discussed many times before Johnson should have defended the title against Langford, McVey, and Jeanette.

Dillon, Smith and Carpentier didn't really establish themselves until near the end of Johnson' title reign either.

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.antekprizering.com/mccartymccarney5620.html

Here's good picture displaying McCarty's size and reach, with his manager Billy McCarney.

[Robinson]

Thanks for that pic.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Obviously as we have discussed many times before Johnson should have defended the title against Langford, McVey, and Jeanette.

Dillon, Smith and Carpentier didn't really establish themselves until near the end of Johnson' title reign either.

Hart and Jeannette beat Johnson just before he won the title. Hart also beat Ross just after Johnson won the title so was still active.

It's pretty damning when you're not defending against more than a half dozen contenders who have beaten you or have a near perfect record against your own defenses.

Paris was the time for Johnson to stand up and be counted. Instead, Battling Jim and Moran set him up for Willard.

BTW, McCarty case in point for the dangers of being a cowboy or farmer. Guys boxed because the money was better and it was safer work and if you were any good, there was some recognition.

[dempseyfire]

Obviously as we have discussed many times before Johnson should have defended the title against Langford, McVey, and Jeanette.

Dillon, Smith and Carpentier didn't really establish themselves until near the end of Johnson' title reign either.

Hart and Jeannette beat Johnson just before he won the title. Hart also beat Ross just after Johnson won the title so was still active.

It's pretty damning when you're not defending against more than a half dozen contenders who have beaten you or have a near perfect record against your own defenses.

Paris was the time for Johnson to stand up and be counted. Instead, Battling Jim and Moran set him up for Willard.

BTW, McCarty case in point for the dangers of being a cowboy or farmer. Guys boxed because the money was better and it was safer work and if you were any good, there was some recognition.

Jeanette won once on a foul. In all of their other contests if you take the time to read the newspaper reports, Johnson dominated Jeanette.

The Hart decision stunk. NO-ONE was clamoring for a Hart rematch after Johnson destroyed Burns (who had beaten Hart)

Sure, Moran wasn't the top challenger he could've fought in 1914. Langford or Smith would've been better opponents. But his subsequent knockouts of Coffey who beat Smith and his prior KO of Palzar (who at the time was the top White Hope do to beating McCarty, a legit KO or not) showed that he was clearly a top 5 opponent at the time.

[HomicideHenry]

Thanks for that pic.

No problem. I try and find every McCarty picture there is, because sadly even in the early days of film, none exists of this man who was deemed capable of defeating Jack Johnson. In only two years as a professional, he virtually defeated every name white contender there was, and was only twenty one. Not until Tyson arrived was there someone like McCarty just tearing through the heavyweight ranks.

I find it odd that not even one shred of film is anywhere in the world of him, he wasnt just a boxer, the man performed in New York doing plays as well as his rodeo stints. He was a superstar by and large, not just an athlete. I think in today's terms, the fortune he earned in the ring, would be around ten million today(?) and he did that in his first two and only years as a professional. Amazing stuff.

The great McCarty is burried twenty miles of where I live, in Piqua. For a time he was both a resident of Sidney where I was born and Piqua, and despite Tracy Callis record on CyberBoxingZone of him, the historical society here has evidence of McCarty fighting as an amatuer up until 1912, though BoxRec and the CBZ shows he was a pro in 1911. Makes me believe he did a Marciano, being an amatuer, then dabble as a pro, then back to the amateurs.

[Robinson]

I have some pics and an article on him in a 1960s Ring mag...Ill get it scanned
and PM you them mate.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Jeanette won once on a foul. In all of their other contests if you take the time to read the newspaper reports, Johnson dominated Jeanette.

The Hart decision stunk. NO-ONE was clamoring for a Hart rematch after Johnson destroyed Burns (who had beaten Hart)

--- You really do take a fancy to nonsense served hot and piping.

Jeannette had an 0-3 record when Johnson first engaged him in the ring. Johnson was the long reigning colored champ. Newspaper accounts of their fights indicate dreary affairs with neither having any advantage of significance. Same with the Hart fight. Why did he need to be DQed against Jeannette and warned repeatedly by the ref who was also the judge for the Hart fight that he needed to stop clinching and start fighting? You'd have thought with talk of him being in line for a shot against Jeffries that he'd be trying his best, and maybe this was all he could muster.

Stinking up the ring was the Johnson style, or have you forgotten the overwhelming evidence?

I was pointing out that Johnson took the easiest fights available once he got the title. Plenty of precedent of former title holders given rematches or new cracks at a title, and I'd have thought Johnson would want to right the alleged wrong done him. What, you thought there was a national outcry to rematch Flynn instead? That's comedy!

Ironically once Johnson lost his, he never got another crack in spite of fighting on across the country with mixed results and lobbying every champ from Dempsey through Louis and every boxing scribe who would listen to his nonsense. What goes around comes around it appears with Johnson.

I prefer his Moran and Willard fight. These show Johnson at his best, but maybe styles make fights since we know he was past his physical prime.

[HomicideHenry]

I have some pics and an article on him in a 1960s Ring mag...Ill get it scanned
and PM you them mate.

That would be awesome!

McCarty, so far, is the best fighter to ever come out of the area (where I was born and raised). Sidney does have a profile boxer, though his real career heights was in kickboxing becoming a world champion, by the name of Chris Overbey. His boxing career, however, is like alot of people's who crossed over from one sport to another: 8-10-0 (3), not well received or anything significant.

Alot of history in this area. Word of mouth says that the very first bare knuckle prize fight in Ohio, occured at Lockington just outside of Sidney and Piqua. It's primarily a ghost town now, but during the canal boat era it was a huge enterprise. I imagine there's credability to the story, since people from all walks of life filtered through that town when the canals were in operation.

[dempseyfire]

Jeanette won once on a foul. In all of their other contests if you take the time to read the newspaper reports, Johnson dominated Jeanette.

The Hart decision stunk. NO-ONE was clamoring for a Hart rematch after Johnson destroyed Burns (who had beaten Hart)

--- You really do take a fancy to nonsense served hot and piping.

Jeannette had an 0-3 record when Johnson first engaged him in the ring. Johnson was the long reigning colored champ. Newspaper accounts of their fights indicate dreary affairs with neither having any advantage of significance. Same with the Hart fight. Why did he need to be DQed against Jeannette and warned repeatedly by the ref who was also the judge for the Hart fight that he needed to stop clinching and start fighting? You'd have thought with talk of him being in line for a shot against Jeffries that he'd be trying his best, and maybe this was all he could muster.

Stinking up the ring was the Johnson style, or have you forgotten the overwhelming evidence?

I was pointing out that Johnson took the easiest fights available once he got the title. Plenty of precedent of former title holders given rematches or new cracks at a title, and I'd have thought Johnson would want to right the alleged wrong done him. What, you thought there was a national outcry to rematch Flynn instead? That's comedy!

Ironically once Johnson lost his, he never got another crack in spite of fighting on across the country with mixed results and lobbying every champ from Dempsey through Louis and every boxing scribe who would listen to his nonsense. What goes around comes around it appears with Johnson.

I prefer his Moran and Willard fight. These show Johnson at his best, but maybe styles make fights since we know he was past his physical prime.

Broughton, you can't lie to me boy. I have the facts staring me in the face.

JOHNSON BEATS JEANETTE
Negro Champion, However, Was Disqualified on an Alleged Foul
11/25/05-PHILADELPHIA LEDGER
After outclassing Joe Jeanette for a round and a half, Jack Johnson, The
Negro Heavyweight Champion of the World, lost the bout at the National
Athletic Club [Phila.] last night on an alleged foul.
Jeanette, after being thumped in lively fashion in the first round, assumed
a crouching pose in the secondround. He undertook to run in and clinch,
ducking a vicious right hand swing. Johnson ripped a right hand hook up for Jeanette's jaw. The latter dropped to the floor,writhing in apparent agony.
He claimed to have been struck a foul blow.
He was removed to the dressing room and the club physician substantiated
his claim. Johnson was promtly disqualified. Jeanettte professed to be in
great pain and lay in his dressing room in apparent agony. It is understood
that the police proposed to keep Johnson to keep Johnson, Jeanette and
the club officialunder surveillance.


Sure sounds like a rematch was in order!! So there was one!

JACK JOHNSON BEATS JEANETTE
Heavyweights Box Six Fast Rounds At National Club
12/2/05-Philadelphia Ledger
Jack Johnson defeated Joe Jeanette in six fast rounds at the National
Athletic Club last night. Jeanette was forced to take the count once in
the fifth round and three times in the sixth round.

01/16/06
Jack Johnson,; the colored heiavyweight.
who challenged Jim Jeffries at
different times, made his New York debut
in the ring ;in a three-round bout
at the Sharkey A. C. Monday night
with Joe Jeanette, and the negro Johnson,
as usual, showed his skill as, a
boxer and had no trouble In outpointing
Jeanette.

And so on. Johnson was Jeannette's master in every fashion. Joe's early record is also not complete but even so when Johnson last beat Joe according to what boxrec has, Jeannette was a 17 fight veteran who in the next year would beat McVey and draw with Langford.

Sure the Hart bout was boring. So what? According to the various reports Johnson easily outpointed and counterpunched Hart silly for 14 of the 20 rounds they fought. The sole judge (the ref) was clearly biased and awarded the fight to Hart simply by being the aggressive fighter . . .hell, you no I don't like Wladimir but it would be equally ridiculous to give the Wlad-Peter fight to Peter simply b/c Wlad excessively held and was not the aggressor.

Why did he fight Flynn again? B/c Flynn's career had just been resurrected by battering the heavily hyped White Hope Carl Morris into a bloody mess.

[raylawpc]

I have the actual newspaper accounts of the Johnson-Hart fight from the San Francisco Examiner, the San Francisco Chronicle and the San Francisco Call. I haven’t looked at those accounts in several months, and don’t have them handy (they’re at home; I’m at work), but as I recall:

1. None of the newspapers described the bout as “ dreary.” The reports from ringside made it sound like a good fight.
2. The accounts indicated that Johnson landed the sharper blows throughout and had a clear edge over the first ten rounds, but he faded down the stretch. Hart was able to land more and more as the fight progressed and Johnson tired.
3. Alex Greggains, the referee, warned Johnson before the fight that if Johnson used a punch and clutch strategy, he would hold that against Johnson in rendering his decision. He did as he promised, as the accounts are unanimous that Hart made the fight by pressing Johnson. It's also interesting that none of the newspapers chastized Greggains for the decision.
4. All three newspapers expressed their opinion that, based on the fighters’ performance, neither deserved a shot at Jim Jeffries’ title.

I’ll look at the accounts again tonight and if there is anything interesting to add (or if my recollection was incorrect about anything), I’ll post it.

I don’t have a scanner with which to post these articles. Sorry.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Joe's early record is also not complete but even so when Johnson last beat Joe according to what boxrec has, Jeannette was a 17 fight veteran who in the next year would beat McVey and draw with Langford.

Sure the Hart bout was boring. So what? According to the various reports Johnson easily outpointed and counterpunched Hart silly for 14 of the 20 rounds they fought. The sole judge (the ref) was clearly biased and awarded the fight to Hart simply by being the aggressive fighter . . .hell, you no I don't like Wladimir but it would be equally ridiculous to give the Wlad-Peter fight to Peter simply b/c Wlad excessively held and was not the aggressor.

--- The Ledger's obvious bias for Johnson is what the headline screams out.

It's understandable that you wouldn't know Jack Johnson played first base for the Philly Giants coloured baseball team which is where he cemented his friendship with future baseball great Rube Foster who assisted in smuggling Johnson out of the country on the eve of his Mann Act sentencing. Johnson also gave boxing exhibitions there and obviously was quite the popular showman, Jeannette the outsider.

1.5 or 3 rds in a 10-45 rd era is nothing to scream dominance or "beat" unless some kind of clear KO or systematic beatdown is witnessed. The one 6 rounder with some KDs might warrant such a description as was noted, but given the shaky nature of press reporting and how so many accounts of a single fight vary wildly even to this day, a single biased source just don't cut the mustard for this cowboy.

Jeannette's record is as good as set in gold since this area is the goldmine for archiving boxing matches as far as the number of fights he had. Johnson got the edge on Jeannette in the win column only just recently with boxrec changes.

Given that Jeannette starts off the series with an 0-3 record is an indication of both how green and how hard he was matched, one of the all time great records in my book in the manner he finishes. Joe first blood with the first win, finishes with a draw to end the series 3-1-1, 2ND.

The Hart fight was difficult to judge because of Johnson's style. Had he delivered a Wlad beatdown to Hart as happened to Peter, no controversy. I watched the fight again the other day, and Wlad picked Peter apart and wasn't even credited with his own KD, the just desserts of a rabbit punch/push to the back of Peter's noggin. Punch stats showed Wlad landed double, 100 punches more than Peter and Lederman plus all three judges scored 114-111 for Wlad after they factored in the rabbit punch KDs for Peter.

Peter was impressive in the early going before gassing and need to remember he was undefeated and ducked by all the name heavies save Wlad who was the one who actually called out Peter. Peter lost a lot in that fight and was not the same fighter against Vitali who gave him flashbacks of Wlad.

Regardless, I can excuse Johnson for fighting Jeffries and even Ketchel because of the money involved, but otherwise, especially in Paris, he was taking short change compared to what he could've made against many of the previously mentioned contenders. Esp Carp who was as hot as all get out back then. Carp had a nice leaping right hand that knocked HOFers silly and Johnson not the sturdiest chin. You'd have thought if JJ fancied his chances he would have made that fight as he was desperate for money.

Nope, he was sitting on that title like ol' Mother Hen.

[raylawpc]

Broughton, what years do you think he played for the Giants? He seems to have been active in Philly in Summers of 1903 and 1905 when he had fights there - particularly 1905 when he had a number of bouts. Must have been 1905 because Rube Foster played for the Cuban X-Giants in 1903, and didn't join the Philadelphia Giants until 1904, when nearly the entire Cuban X-Giants team switched to the Philadelphia Giants.

I kind of doubt that Jack Johnson was a regular with the team as he was quite busy with boxing in 1905.

Do you have any concrete information about his playing time and status with the Giants?

What evidence of "obvious bias" for Johnson do you have against the Ledger other than the headline? Do you have reports from other Philadelphia newspapers that indicate a different result?

[dempseyfire]

It's clear that when Broughton is presented with facts he pretends they don't exist and claims they are biased.

If he knew anything about this era he'd know 6 round fights were actually much more common than fights scheduled over 10 rounds.

I don't think there is any evidence beyond Johnson's auto-bio (which to say is loose with facts is an understatement) that he ever played for the Giants. If you have any please present it.

[raylawpc]

It's clear that when Broughton is presented with facts he pretends they don't exist and claims they are biased.

If he knew anything about this era he'd know 6 round fights were actually much more common than fights scheduled over 10 rounds.

I don't think there is any evidence beyond Johnson's auto-bio (which to say is loose with facts is an understatement) that he ever played for the Giants. If you have any please present it.

I certainly think its within the realm of possibility that Johnson played with the Giants on an infrequent basis. He was certainly in Philadelphia all summer in 1905 (except for one fight in Boston, I think). I doubt he was a regular on the team.

[Robinson]

DF,

Granberry knows his stuff.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

It's clear that when Broughton is presented with facts he pretends they don't exist and claims they are biased.

If he knew anything about this era he'd know 6 round fights were actually much more common than fights scheduled over 10 rounds.

I don't think there is any evidence beyond Johnson's auto-bio (which to say is loose with facts is an understatement) that he ever played for the Giants. If you have any please present it.

--- The facts you present are viewed through fogged coke bottles. Without knowledge of the period, you won't know what your looking at.

I didn't complain about 6 rd fights, but the coloured title had a big measure of prestige and was a "big promotion" and as such was meant to emulate real titles whenever possible.

Apparently you don't understand how popular baseball was in those days. I first came across Johnson playing for the Philly Giants upon perusing Only The Ball Was White by Robert Peterson, one of the earliest forays into turn of the century black baseball. I checked the boxing records of Johnson and it all falls into place.

Obviously he wasn't a full time player, but Corbett, Jeffries, Sullivan, and many others made appearances in exhibition style baseball which is what the coloured teams were. All you urban hiphoppers and club crawlers don't understand the rural communities back then. When the teams came into town it was like the circus wrapped in the state fair type of event, plays, carny shows, boxing exhibitions.

The players were fluid, picking up and dropping off at hometowns and such. Major League baseball players were often picked up after the season for promotion and started forming their own touring teams that even played the coloured teams from time to time. Babe Ruth was famously suspended for putting too much time in his exhibition team instead of preseason training camp.

Some kid from the town could show up and practice or even play if he was good enough. That's how greats like Bob Gibson and such got started. Now you got to go through some dreary development program where most of the kids drop out from sheer boredom in the brutal quest for perfection.