Jack Johnson vrs Tommy Burns(film fight footage of)

[Brutu]

Anyone know how much film footage of the 14 rounds still survive?
How many original prints exist from around that period?
Anyone know how Bill Cayton and Jim Jacobs got ahold of their copy?
I read that originally in 1909 ,there was a ninety minute version
for the upscale movie houses(The promoter and ref Hugh McIntosh lecturing)
and a condensed 40 minute version
for the vaudville houses and the cheap movie houses.

[raylawpc]

Anyone know how much film footage of the 14 rounds still survive?
How many original prints exist from around that period?
Anyone know how Bill Cayton and Jim Jacobs got ahold of their copy?
I read that originally in 1909 ,there was a ninety minute version
for the upscale movie houses(The promoter and ref Hugh McIntosh lecturing)
and a condensed 40 minute version
for the vaudville houses and the cheap movie houses.

I am told only fragments survive.

[observer1]

Stupid Racist police and general society obviusly thought the "Sub-Human" Johnson was not worthy of the title, so i think they actually forcefully turned off all cameras just before Burns got KTFO. Correct me if im wrong

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Correct me if im wrong

--- You're wrong.

Part of the prefight agreement in order to get the fight held was the fight to be stopped in advance of severe punishment. Pretty routine stuff in those days since prizefighting was not publically popular with politicians. Two of Johnson's corner crawled under the ring, probably to secure the round Johnson bet on and yelled for the police to stop the bout after Jack opened up.

Burns was never knocked out and finally boxrec changed the result from TKO to points win.

Lotta myths about Johnson being rectified.

[dempseyfire]

Correct me if im wrong

--- You're wrong.

Part of the prefight agreement in order to get the fight held was the fight to be stopped in advance of severe punishment. Pretty routine stuff in those days since prizefighting was not publically popular with politicians. Two of Johnson's corner crawled under the ring, probably to secure the round Johnson bet on and yelled for the police to stop the bout after Jack opened up.

Burns was never knocked out and finally boxrec changed the result from TKO to points win.

Lotta myths about Johnson being rectified.

Broughton, the film clearly shows Johnson landing a good deal of flush shots on Burns prior to the film stopping. He was tired and hurt and going to get knocked out. Not only the film but the sporting press present agreed.

[raylawpc]

Correct me if im wrong

--- You're wrong.

Part of the prefight agreement in order to get the fight held was the fight to be stopped in advance of severe punishment. Pretty routine stuff in those days since prizefighting was not publically popular with politicians. Two of Johnson's corner crawled under the ring, probably to secure the round Johnson bet on and yelled for the police to stop the bout after Jack opened up.

Burns was never knocked out and finally boxrec changed the result from TKO to points win.

Lotta myths about Johnson being rectified.

Wow ! Maybe we can get the powers that be here at boxrec to change the result in the Jeffries-Johnson fight from a Johnson "WTKO" to a Johnson "WDQ!"

Referee Tex Rickard: ". . .As [Jeffries] lay there [after the second knockdown] several of his seconds caught hold of him and helped him to his feet. Under the rules of the game . . .this disqualified Jeffries, and Johnson was the winner." New York Times 7/5/1910 p. 3. George Harting, the official timekeeper, confirmed that Jeffries was, in fact, disqualified and not knocked out. San Francisco Chronicle 7/5/1910, p. 2.

Get it right, boxrec.com! Let's fix another Johnson myth!

[ben geoghegan]

Johnson knocked Burnsy down with the first punch of the fight. Over some recent years some people tried to debunk the books on the fight that stated this, until footage was finally made public on Ken Burns Jack Johnson documentary showing Burns on the floor seconds after the opening bell. Burns was never in the fight.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Wow ! Maybe we can get the powers that be here at boxrec to change the result in the Jeffries-Johnson fight from a Johnson "WTKO" to a Johnson "WDQ!"

--- Maybe bud since they tinker with all the records.

Taken away some of Johnson's earlier wins and a loss and gave him an extra pair of "newspaper wins" over Jeannette, one seemingly based on the Daily Kennebec Journal, which I'm sure was one of a dozen Philly newspapers at the time.

Of course getting back to Johnson, clear the ref off his game by not warning Johnson for holding and hitting, even lifting Jeff off his feet at one point. By the time of the "2nd" KD, time should've stopped and a point deducted from Johnson from pushing poor ol' Jeff down and out on the ring apron. Yeah, DQ Jeff afterwards, but fairplay, believe a towel is tossed in at the point of his corner ministrations, and since it was pre talkie, we don't have the record of what was shouted out in Jeff's corner. Could be a corner retirement.

Of course we'd have to also change the draw of his Battling Jim Johnson bout to LRTD since JJ quit the bout. Since this seems to have been the first time 3 judges were ever used to score a prize fight and since rumour has it they were the forebears of Moe, Larry, and Curly we tend to overlook such minor transgressions, especially easy to do since they were French as could be expected. Probably had a hot plates of freshly sauteed escargot growing cold with bottles of wine growing warm together without the benefit of their gastric judgments.

Now the French did "officially" look into the outrage that was Siki/Carpentier. Poor ref blew just about a full book's worth of calls in that fight, but I prefer to think boxing honours their pioneer contributions to the sweet science by the creation of "official inquiries" that are now de rigueur in examining any fight in question.

Thanks to official inquiry we have to give Walcott a pass for not DQing Ali for scuffling with Walcott, trying to kick a downed Liston, and refusing to go to neutral corner in the 2nd fight.

Can't remember if there was "official inquiry" in the first Taylor/Chavez fight, but surely we don't want to change the result of such a storied bout from TKO with 3 sec on the clock to DQ Taylor when Duva jumps on the ring apron at the time of the KD and spews out holy advice.

Of course I love the official inquiry that suspends Zab Judah for fighting with crazy uncle Roger Money May who attacks him ring center in the middle of a bout. Can't blemish Money May with such an ignoble loss, now that wouldn't be cricket would it?

No, we can rest easy at night know Evan Field is being officially administered to for his role in the most important title bout of the new millennium brought to us by HOFer Don King, the largest boxing champion ever against the oldest heavyweight contender.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus, and he could be seen making the rounds of poor beleaguered wallstreet handing out billions of dollars of taxpayer monies. It is "free" enterprise after all.

In the meantime, how about a little credit for Tommy taking the fight to the big man. Takes two to tango after all, at least "officially."

[klompton]

The statement that the film was stopped by police is a myth. The scene that is always shown as burns taking punishment and the film stopping in mid fall for burns is actually from an earlier point in the fight and burns doesnt even go down, even though he looks like he is about to. If you have you have the complete footage that exists (which is not the whole film) you can see this quite clearly.

[ben geoghegan]

Holding and hitting was allowed back then, if both fighters agreed to it beforehand.

[Brutu]

From what I read Johnson did knock Burns down in the 14th round,Burns got up wobbly and he was being given an eight count,when the police came in the ring and the fight was stopped.
Reportly Burns shouted and cursed the police inspecter then his seconds took him to his corner sat on a stool and wept.
There were reports from reviewers of the original moving picture showing in 1909,
that the final moments of the fight were filmed,but absent
from certain prints.
I got to agree,even though Burns was being outclassed and outfought and taking punishment throught the entire fight,he was game and didnt want to quit,he thought Johnson was getting tired.
If you look at the fight footage from Unforgivable Blackness,Burns throughs a pretty big right hand
that Johnson just ducks in under,the round before the fight was stopped.

[ben geoghegan]

Being game does not a world-beater make

[funso banjo baby]

i did not know this

youtube it somebody

also how long did dempsey leave the ring against willard after the first round ?

also dempsey disq against Firpo and tunney

[Brutu]

As near as I can tell the rounds that are known to exist of Johnson vrs Burns(or parts of rounds)
are rounds..6,7,10,13,14.
As far as the 'newly found"footage of Burns being knocked down in round one in UNFORGIVABLE BLACKNESS.
I think that footage was the knockdown from round 7,then they(producers of UNFORGIVABLE BLACKNESS) just reversed the image zoomed in and then pretended that the same clip was also the knockdown in round 2(or least the narrater tries to give the impression.

[Brutu]

Here is a listing of the fights of Tommy Burns that were reportly filmed.
(source FIGHT PICTURES by Dan Streible)

Tommy Burns vrs Philadelphia Jack O'Brien(20) 28.Nov.1906 (?lost)
Tommy Burns vrs Bill Squires (KO1)Colma,Ca. 4.July 1907
Tommy Burns vrs Gunner Moir(KO10)London Dec.1907 (?Lost)
Tommy Burns vrs Jack Palmer(KO4)London Feb.1908 (?lost)
Tommy Burns vrs Bill Squires(III)/KO13, Sydney 24.August.1908 (?lost)
Jack Johnson vrs Tommy Burns 26.Dec.1908

[Brutu]

btw On disc #1, of UNFORGIVABLE BLACKNESS,
at 39 minutes,
there is shown some footage of Tommy Burns boxing someone,looks like an actual bout.
Anyone know who the opponent was?
They(Ken Burns staff)sure picked some unflattery moments.
Probably just to make Burns look more like a goof then he was presented in the documentery.

[Brutu]

Yeah,the same police also all came into the ring to stop the action
during the Tommy Burns vrs Bill Squires third fight several months earlier,in the same stadium in Sydney.
When Burns knocked down Squires three times in round 13,as the towell was being thrown in.
You dont often hear the boxing historians on tv bring that up either in context to the Johnson vrs Burns stoppage.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Here is a listing of the fights of Tommy Burns that were reportly filmed.
(source FIGHT PICTURES by Dan Streible)

Tommy Burns vrs Philadelphia Jack O'Brien(20) 28.Nov.1906 (?lost)
Tommy Burns vrs Bill Squires (KO1)Colma,Ca. 4.July 1907

--- I've seen a clip of Obrien in their first fight with Jeff reffing. Maybe 90 sec or so of Obrien running like a cat and Burns chasing like a dog.

Jeff awards a draw to the digust of Burns. Jeff is so big that he makes Big George look tiny. Had to have been 350 easy.

Saw a clip of one of the Burns/Squires fight. Burns is actually a well advanced fighter, just not a good heavy. Should've pursued the LH crown after Johnson.

[Brutu]

Are you sure that it was Philadelphia Jack O'Brien you saw in the clip?
Also speaking of police stopping a fight.
They also entered the ring in the first Burns vrs O'Brien fight in Los Angles after the 20th round to stop it going the scheduled 40 rounds,because 20 rounders were the limit for a boxing match in California at the time.Due to it being stopped,Jim Jeffries the ref declared the bout a draw.

[Brutu]

Anyone have the various newspaer reporters round by round coverage of the Johnson vrs Burns fight they can post here?
(excluding maybe Jack London's over analogous coverage)

[greenpoint]

I don't think any footage of the Burns-Johnson fight is available online.

However, I know that the National Film and Sound Archive (an Australian government agency) has in its archives some surviving film footage of the fight. 13 minutes and 23 seconds' worth of footage survives (http://colsearch.nfsa.gov.au/nfsa/searc ... esCount=10), but I am not sure what rounds this footage covers. I think it's possible for researchers to order prints on DVD directly from the National Film and Sound Archive (http://www.nfsa.gov.au).

Forum members in Australia might also be interested to know that the State Library of New South Wales recently purchased the original oil painting by Norman Lindsay that depicts the Burns v Johnson fight. It was used on the cover of Australian magazine the Lone Hand (December 1908) and was painted before the fight actually took place. A good article about this painting (and the fight!) can be viewed at http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainmen ... 26944.html.

This painting, along with a few other items from the fight (a panoramic photo and a souvenir programme) are currently on show in the Heritage Collection exhibition at the State Library of New South Wales (http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/events/exhibit ... ges/2.html).

[klompton]

highlites of burns-johnson exist, All of burns-squires 1, all of burn-obrien (and for the record it was agreed before the fight that if there was no knockout it would be a draw. tommy is disgusted at the verdict because he and obrien had a deal to take it easy, that was the only way obrien would fight burns. when they shook hands in the center of the ring burns approached obrien and said "deals off" obrien then literally ran the entire fight. Burns-moir exists as does Burns-beckett in which a very old burns looks fat and terrible and gets his ass handed to him.

[delisa]

Burns was down in first for an 8-count; down for no count in second; down in seventh "for a few seconds"; and down for 8-count (but up and fighting) prior to the stoppage by Police

[greenpoint]

Did I say there was no footage of Burns v Johnson online?

Well, there is a small portion on YouTube:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=naJDbWpAiRA

[Brutu]

This from Jack Johnson's own 1911 French Memoirs autobiography,
MY LIFE AND BATTLES(page 71)

"At 11:15 we posed for the movie camera and it was annouced that in case of interventin by the police,Mr. McIntosh the referee,would immediately declare a winner on points.
Then we were ready to fight".

also on page 73,
"But at the very moment,the police intervened and stopped the bout.Mr.
McIntosh then declared that I was the winner on points".