Evander Holyfield vs Joe Louis

[Hookie74]

Well, Toney was WBA HW champ for about a minute. I know he was stripped and the decision changed to a NC. I was just making a point. Well, there is nothng anybody can say... your hatred for Holyfield is pure, totally untainted, very powerful stuff! Hey, I can respect that.

Anyway, Schmeling was knocked out 5 times and not just at the end of his career.

I will say this about Max... he should have been a 2x HW champ. After he beat Louis he deserved a shot at Braddock. You all know the story but basically the people who controlled things at the time would rather have a black man they could somewhat control than a nazi (which Schmeling really wasn't despite his connection with the party) as HW champ. They knew either man would beat Braddock. Braddock would get a piece of Louis' future purses for his cooperation. Louis was a good enough man to push for the rematch with Schmeling. Max, Joe, and Jimmy were class all the way.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Well, Toney was WBA HW champ for about a minute. I know he was stripped and the decision changed to a NC. I was just making a point. Well, there is nothng anybody can say... your hatred for Holyfield is pure, totally untainted, very powerful stuff! Hey, I can respect that.

--- No need to be silly.

Evan Field deserves pity, not hatred. He's trashed a stellar career and milking boxing for cash. It's been over a decade since he won a legit bout not featuring headbutts against a top contender.

I don't mind anyone saying that Evan would have a chance to beat Joe since at his best he was a fine fighter, but that didn't last long and plenty of indications he had a pharmaceutical advantage like his fat friend Toney.

Just don't use any career facts to favor Evan, that's all. That'd be like favoring the size advantage Fitzsimmons holds over Lennox Lewis. It's silly trying to come up with nonexistent advantages Evan Field holds over Joe Louis. There are dozens of career heavies better or worse than Evan that do hold various advantages over Louis, but Evan is simply not one of those heavies.

[The Great John L]

Schmeling was a good puncher but how many big time fighters did he KO? He stopped Louis in the 12th round. He stopped former WW and MW champ Mickey Walker in the 8th. He was the only man to stop Young Stribling (KO15) it was Stribling's 268th pro fight.

You continue to dazzle with your ability to lookup information on boxrec. Very impressive. Now try talking about the styles of all of the fighters that you've looked up.

[Hookie74]

BoxRec huh? I've been discussing boxing like this before I ever even heard of the internet. In highscool they used to refer to me as The Fight Doctor Hookie Pacheco... which shows that they really didn't understand that Ferdie is indeed a doctor. Ferdie left Ali's camp in '77 after stating that Ali should retire because his reflexes had slowed btw.

Anyway, I have a room full of fights on VHS and DVD. I have Corbett vs. Courtney, the first fight ever filmed. You won't find this on BoxRec, it really wasn't a fight though. They were paid to just go thru the motions, this made them the first paid actors in a motion picture. I have Corbett vs. Sharkey, the first indoor fight ever filmed. I have Fitzsimmons vs. Corbett, the first World HW title fight ever filmed.

I also have hundreds of books on great and not so great boxers, some signed. I have Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Emille Griffith, and Carlos Palomino's autographs. I have every issue of Ring magazine from 1986-2000 and some other boxing mags as well. I have much of this info memorized and could rattle off facts for days without looking anything up. Do I reference the films and books? Sure. Do I look on BoxRec? Yeah, isn't this a BoxRec forum?

More on Schmeling... he used films of Louis to prepare for their fight. He was able to expose a weakness in Louis' defense. He noticed that after throwing a jab Louis let his left lay out for too long instead of pulling it back quickly like you learn in your first week in the gym. He made Joe pay for this.

[Baby Face Finster]

ok,bert cooper knocked him down.......isnt cooper bassically louis's size? i mean,you can say what you want,these people just werent the same size.

you think holy wouldnt have lasted 12........15......20,for that matter? he would finish on his feet,and yeah hed probably lose.

He might have been the same weight but he wasn't the same height. Bert Cooper is listed as 5''11" where as Louis was 6'2", but what you are clearly failing to comprehend is that Cooper had nowhere near the skill set that Louis possessed, yet he was on the verge of stopping Evander.

And to answer your question, NO I don't think Holyfield would have survived to the end of the 15th round. One thing Louis was known for was for being a devastating finisher. When he hurt people he didn't let them off the hook. I think Holyfield would get stopped around the 12th to 14th round.

The people who gave Louis the most trouble were slick movers, something Holyfield has never been. I think stylistically Holyfield's come forward style would work against him. He'd be right in front of Louis to get hit. Louis wouldn't have to expend energy to track Holyfield down, he could simply time him coming in over and over again.

Do I think Holyfield has no chance, no, I think he has a punchers chance, he could land a KO punch but I'll go with the more realistic view that he would get tagged way too much on way to a stoppage.

[bigstinkybug]

*Holyfield vs any great heavyweight of the past would be great...Against Louis..it would be close...Not many giving Holy much of a chance...I'd call it a toss-up,but it wouldn't take much for me to change my mind.
Holyfield fought alot of big great fighters...Could Louis take Holy's punch? Louis was 210 at his heaviest...but was 200 on average. Could Holy take Joe's punch.?.sure he could..he took Tyson's,Bowes,Lennox's.etc,etc..we saw Joe get Ko'ed by a much less puncher in Schmelling. Also,Joe had alot of problems with boxers..a known fact..Holyfield can box...it would be a fight that a prime Holy could win as much as lose...certainly not the landslide for Joe,as shown on this thread.

Louis also knocked out many good 'boxers' . .

The boxers that troubled Louis (Conn, Walcott) were far slicker than Holyfield ever was. Can Louis take Holyfield's punch? He took big shots from far greater punchers than Holyfield from Buddy and Max Baer, Galento etc. Schmeling was definitely a bigger one-shot puncher than Evander and he hammered a 21 year old Louis with his best shots for over 7 rounds before Louis caved in.

Saying Holyfield goes the distance with Louis b/c he went the distance with bigger guys who could punch (Bowe and Lennox) is not how boxing works. Styles make fights and Louis was a far more precise, faster and fluid puncher than Bowe and Lewis were, and in the case of Lennox he didn't fight an offensive fight vs Holyfield b/c he didn't trust his chin to hold up in a war.

And BTW Hookie, suggesting Bert Cooper would have a snowball's chance in hell vs Billy Conn is just absurd.

*I disagree...Scmelling,Baer,..Galento!..r harder punchers than Holy...we really don't see things the same way.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Disagreeing comes with the territory, but if you think Holyfield hit harder than Schmeling, Galento, & especially Baer, you just don't know what you're speaking of. It's harsh, & it makes me seem like an asshole to say it, but the truth is the truth. You don't know what you're looking at.

[bobcat]

Schmeling was a good puncher but how many big time fighters did he KO? He stopped Louis in the 12th round. He stopped former WW and MW champ Mickey Walker in the 8th. He was the only man to stop Young Stribling (KO15) it was Stribling's 268th pro fight.

You continue to dazzle with your ability to lookup information on boxrec. Very impressive. Now try talking about the styles of all of the fighters that you've looked up.

i know ive pointed out how this guy is a retard.and i dont like holyfield,per say.........but as a fighter,he would have hung with anyone.you can say what you want about the guy,but he would last 15 agasint louis,and maybe even win.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Schmeling was a good puncher but how many big time fighters did he KO? He stopped Louis in the 12th round. He stopped former WW and MW champ Mickey Walker in the 8th. He was the only man to stop Young Stribling (KO15) it was Stribling's 268th pro fight.

You continue to dazzle with your ability to lookup information on boxrec. Very impressive. Now try talking about the styles of all of the fighters that you've looked up.

i know ive pointed out how this guy is a retard.and i dont like holyfield,per say.........but as a fighter,he would have hung with anyone.you can say what you want about the guy,but he would last 15 agasint louis,and maybe even win.

"Per say?" Gold

[Hurricane]

very tough to call.
louis was a very hard and fast combination puncher
he had good stamina but could fate a bit late like most fighters going 15 rounds
he fough very good fighters boxers and punchers(yes galanto and bear proberly hit harder than holy but they were the kind of fighters that relyes first on power and teknik next)
holy in his prime was presis powerful and had oki speed. plus holy could move and use angles
louis was more streight forword and diddent have the best foot work
holy had also fougt very good fighers. holy had world class chin and good defense. he took tyson and tyson had a natrual talent of blending power with speed in combo punching as good as the best of them.
louis also had a good chin
but i think that holys streng movment and determination would stop the brown bomber late after a very hard and classic war.

to of the greatest in the game. eccselent ambasadores of the sport

[bobcat]

ok,so i dont type well.i have a sever neurological problem,and have trouble not shaking when i type.also,i didnt graduate from h.s,so theres a lot of words ive heard,but cant spell.

do you feel better about yourself?

[Goodnight, Irene]

It's, 'per se.' No neurological problem in the world prevents you from knowing that. You didn't misspell it because you tremble when you type, so let's not pretend.

Never mind. Hurricane has just delivered unto us the most extraordinary cross-word jumble of a post. Tom Hanks'd have a difficult time deciphering that

[Hounddawg]

It's, 'per se.' No neurological problem in the world prevents you from knowing that. You didn't misspell it because you tremble when you type, so let's not pretend.

Never mind. Hurricane has just delivered unto us the most extraordinary cross-word jumble of a post. Tom Hanks'd have a difficult time deciphering that

[Friedie]

Anyway, Schmeling was knocked out 5 times and not just at the end of his career.

Two fights of that were stoppages because of injuries (happened at the begin of his career) and two were t.K.o.'s against future or reigning World Heavyweight Champions! Max was counted out only once in his career, 1928 as a lightheavyweight against Gipsy Daniels due to a lack of concentration...

...and at the end of his career in 1948 were only two defeats on points, no knockouts.

[Robinson]

DF

Louis was not that much bigger than Holy.

Also....sure Holy ate alot of punchers and got hit often,
but what about Louis ??? he was hit rocked and dropped
by a lot of guys who are far from being in the same category
as a Bert Cooper, Michael Dokes or Alex Stewart as far as
power and skills goes.

I know alot here romanticise about how strong and devastating
Tony galento was so I shall not go there. Or how 'big' and hard
hitting Buddy Baer was.

But you can not over look the fact that Louis was hit often
and hard (so much so that he was rocked) by light hitting
174lbs Billy Conn.

Or LHW cum HW James Braddock who managed to floor Louis
in the opening round.

Arturo Godoy was not a better fighter than say Dokes or Bowe
who troubled Louis severly.

Anything after WW2 really should not count as a peak Louis
as he was obvisouly slipping and while having boxed alot of
exhibition rounds was not the active man that he could have
been had he not served in uniform during the War.

So while I agree that Holy did get hit alot. I believe he was hurt
by bigger and harder punchers than the men that were able to
hurt or drop Joe Louis.

[Baby Face Finster]

Are you insane? Buddy Baer is known for having one of the strongest right hands in boxing history. True Galento knocked down Louis but he wasn't seriously hurt from it, it was more of a flash knockdown.

[p4p1]

long story short holy is in for a very painful night vs louis

[DMWordsmith]

C'mon guys. Apples and oranges here. If you honestly took Louis and Holyfield and put them in the ring, I couldn't see Joe lasting more than 5 or 6 rounds. Different era, different training, different game. That being said, Joe Louis is head and shoulders above Holyfield if you compare them against their peers. It's like saying Wilt Chamberlain is better than Shaq. Chamberlain was an amazing basketball player for his time. Scored 100 points in a single game. But he was playing in a time when the game was simply nowhere near as refined as it is today. Put Shaq as we know him in against those guys and he'd drop 200 in a game. Same applies to Louis and Holyfield. With the training advancements, and the stylistic advancements (offense and defense), Joe Louis wouldn't stand a chance. Like I said before, apples and oranges...

[Slugout]

Well, Toney was WBA HW champ for about a minute. I know he was stripped and the decision changed to a NC. I was just making a point. Well, there is nothng anybody can say... your hatred for Holyfield is pure, totally untainted, very powerful stuff! Hey, I can respect that.

Anyway, Schmeling was knocked out 5 times and not just at the end of his career.

I will say this about Max... he should have been a 2x HW champ. After he beat Louis he deserved a shot at Braddock. You all know the story but basically the people who controlled things at the time would rather have a black man they could somewhat control than a nazi (which Schmeling really wasn't despite his connection with the party) as HW champ. They knew either man would beat Braddock. Braddock would get a piece of Louis' future purses for his cooperation. Louis was a good enough man to push for the rematch with Schmeling. Max, Joe, and Jimmy were class all the way.

Joe Lewis was on Milk and Corn Bread ! Evander was on HGH !
If Joe Lewis was on HGH he would still be heavy weight champion !

[dempseyfire]

C'mon guys. Apples and oranges here. If you honestly took Louis and Holyfield and put them in the ring, I couldn't see Joe lasting more than 5 or 6 rounds. Different era, different training, different game. That being said, Joe Louis is head and shoulders above Holyfield if you compare them against their peers. It's like saying Wilt Chamberlain is better than Shaq. Chamberlain was an amazing basketball player for his time. Scored 100 points in a single game. But he was playing in a time when the game was simply nowhere near as refined as it is today. Put Shaq as we know him in against those guys and he'd drop 200 in a game. Same applies to Louis and Holyfield. With the training advancements, and the stylistic advancements (offense and defense), Joe Louis wouldn't stand a chance. Like I said before, apples and oranges...

With all due respect you are completly wrong. Boxing is not basketball. Basketball did not become a major professional sport until the late 1950s. Gloved boxing, along with baseball, had been America's biggest sport since the turn of the 19th century. Holyfield was not more 'refined' than Louis in any way, be it technique or conditioning.


To Robinson: Louis did not get hit NEARLY as much as Holyfield did in fights. Not because he was super-slick on defense (although he was more slick than people realize) but b/c he was the greatest counter-puncher in HW history. He would make guys incredibly scared of throwing shots b/c his very quick return fire was so damaging.
Godoy gave Louis problems but landed very few clean shots to Joe's face . . .Braddock besides the FLASH KD in round 1 hardly did anything. Ditto with Galento, who received a major beating from Joe for 9/10 of the fight. As for Conn, sure Louis got hit by a very fast and superbly conditioned guy . . not anymore than Evander did by Michael Moorer, who was not the fighter Conn was.

And if you want to sink your head under a stone and convince yourself Buddy Baer and Galento did not have major one-punch KO power, than go right ahead. Won't make you right.

[Robinson]

DF,

And thinking that Galento and Baer hit harder than Tyson, Lewis or
late career Foreman is not right either. Holyfield was never knocked
down by those men, even if he was hit more than Louis was by
his respective foes.

Moorer was a solid 225 when he beat Holy in a close fight that we
all know Holy was not in his best form during. Thats a tad different
to be rocked by a 174lber who would these days be a SMW.

Alot of the competition that Louis faced was so vastly inferior to him
that they had no answers to his clean, hard blows and he was able
to counter these men, who while being solid pros were not in the
league as the men that Holy has faced.

I am not putting my head in the ground mate, if I was do you think
I would not enjoy engaging you in conversation.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

DF,

And thinking that Galento and Baer hit harder than Tyson, Lewis or
late career Foreman is not right either. Holyfield was never knocked
down by those men, even if he was hit more than Louis was by
his respective foes.

Moorer was a solid 225 when he beat Holy in a close fight that we
all know Holy was not in his best form during. Thats a tad different
to be rocked by a 174lber who would these days be a SMW.

Alot of the competition that Louis faced was so vastly inferior to him
that they had no answers to his clean, hard blows and he was able
to counter these men, who while being solid pros were not in the
league as the men that Holy has faced.

I am not putting my head in the ground

--- Won't bother to ask you where you are putting it, but if you think Moorer was ever really "solid" as a heavy, you need to find another spot.

I like Moorer and recognize his talent unlike others on this forum, but his lack of discipline in training is well known. What he accomplished as heavy was operating at 75% capacity, and he fair thee well dominated Evan Field in the first fight other than getting briefly buzzed. I brought this up and it bears repeating: Just like Ali was never the same after Frazier 1 or Foreman, take your pick, Evan was never the same after Foreman. All his losses and terrible performances happen after this. He was at absolute peak for that match, 8-0, 8 KOs in heavy bouts against ranked contenders and something like a 90% KO ratio in his career. After Foreman he often looks like corpse in the ring and his KO% plummets to near 20%.

Best to best I have Evan a decent chance against Joe, but son, I'm here to tell you that Evan on his best day can never match the unmatchable combination of skills, silky power, strategy, economy, and consistent longevity of Joe who didn't need weights and chemicals. Evan was taken to the woodshed by a past prime Qawi and hurt by other fighters all through his career. The only advantage I see he may have over Joe is chin, but only because Evan doesn't get KDed much, he stays upright when hurt. He never had to fight in 6oz horsehair gloves either which is a whole 'nother level of pain.

When Evan was trying to win a spot of the Olympic LH team, Joe was whacking the Jeeseephus out of the likes of Baer, Carnera, and Sharkey on his way to the title. Nobody save young Tyson comes close to Joe's early prowess, and he did OK for himself afterwards too. On Joe's worst day against Evan's worst day, RIP Evan.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Moorer was a solid HW, but the idea that he, "dominated" Holyfield is laughing-stock material. You haven't a clue on how to score a fight if that's truly what you think.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, as I see your true goal is to tear Holyfield down. He doesn't beat Louis, but he's nobody's push-over, period.

To the Wordsmith who thinks Holyfield would take Louis out in five or six, & that Louis, "wouldn't have a chance," fair enough --- modern nutrition makes Bert Cooper, Ray Mercer & company much better fighters than Louis ever was.

Another poor, deluded individual, for whom fights are decided not by the merits of the men in the ring, but by their birthdays on the calendar. Chalk another one up for 'Vander! Why? Errr, he was born later!

[dempseyfire]

DF,

And thinking that Galento and Baer hit harder than Tyson, Lewis or
late career Foreman is not right either. Holyfield was never knocked
down by those men, even if he was hit more than Louis was by
his respective foes.

Moorer was a solid 225 when he beat Holy in a close fight that we
all know Holy was not in his best form during. Thats a tad different
to be rocked by a 174lber who would these days be a SMW.

Alot of the competition that Louis faced was so vastly inferior to him
that they had no answers to his clean, hard blows and he was able
to counter these men, who while being solid pros were not in the
league as the men that Holy has faced.

I am not putting my head in the ground mate, if I was do you think
I would not enjoy engaging you in conversation.

It doesn't matter if they hit harder than some men Holyfield faced or not . . those guys did not present the offensive assault that Louis would.

Moorer was 214 vs Evander, not 225. If you're going to say Holy had an 'off-night' vs Moorer, Louis had an off-night vs Conn. And people always bring up the Conn fight as if Louis lost! He KTFO Conn in the fight!!! Styles make fights and yes the light HW Conn would've caused Holyfield major problems. It's the punches you don't see that hurt you. Evander in his late 30s went 24 rounds with Lennox without blinking but just a few years later was stunned and hurt vs a fat James Toney . . yes, big muscles and KO HLs don't always tell the tale.

I think we'll always have differing opinions over Louis's opposition. I think by and large the likes of Walcott, Schmeling, Nova, Godoy, M Baer, Pastor would've given Holyfield more problems than a post-prison Tyson, 40s versions of Holmes and Foreman, Cooper, Dokes, Moorer, overweight Mercer etc.

And yes while Broughton and I agree on that Louis would beat Evander, his arguments tearing Holyfield down are plain stupid.

[Robinson]

DF,
You know you and I will disagree on most things, besides the awesomeness
of Holmes. BUT...I feel that Holy faced better opponents that what Louis did
and would dominate his opponents.

Now as for whether Louis vs Holy peak for peak. I really am not convinced either
way. I think Holy in my minds eye would do pretty well, but then you look at
how well a Bert cooper and Ray Mercer did against Holy.

Then I think at how well some of Louis opponents did against him in his era,
and while I appreciate their historic significance, I do not feel that they
do well head for head against Holy's opponents.

I see Louis winning a close dec or I see Holy getting a TKO or maybe dec.

Lets flip a coin and let the Gods of fate decide. Either way one thing I know
you and I can agree on. We would both sit down and be highly entertained by
this one.