Who has the weaker chin - Amir Khan or David Haye?

[dondada]

Let's see if Khan can come back and cope with things like knockdowns, against someone good. Then maybe there'll be a debate.

Haye's chin does let him down which will probably be catastrophic at heavyweight, but you have to admire him for testing himself.

First, Amir will have to fight a lightweight...roll on...

Almost isn't a fair debate - Haye will be taking shots from world class, up to 6'7, 250-pound heavies, Khan will be fighting 35 yos and super featherweights.

Thats kind of my point with it being "hard to say" - I'd like to see Khan's reaction when caught against someone like Graham Earl - whose Power I rate on a similar level to Mormeck/Thompson in a P4P sense. Similarly, had Haye had the "opportunity" (cannot think of a better word, but I am sure you'll know what I mean) to take a clean shot from Enzo... then it would have been interesting (as Enzo has similar power P4P as Prescott IMO).

Jesus. How is it 'hard to say' when Khan can't take a shot from a light puncher and Haye can from a decent one? I can't make it any more simple than that. Never mind Enzo...Haye took plenty of shots from Barrett (and admittedly went from one, but took several others.)

The irony of this thread is I actually do think it will by Haye's chin which eventually finds him out.

[J]

well you seem to know stu. you seem very definite about it.



apparently Bredishas better power than the cat or mormeck both of whom carried their power to world class.




ps UTTER SHIT ABOUT THOMPSON BY THE WAY.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

[banjo]

greame earl? fuckinell.

when did grame earl ever do this to someone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUaVTXyj ... =1&index=2

Best thing about that was Rothmann grinning and clowning one minute and then sprawled on the canvas the next

[stujones]

greame earl? fuckinell.

when did grame earl ever do this to someone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUaVTXyj ... =1&index=2

graeme earl was domestic level and yet you are comparing his p4p power with the former undisputed cruiserweight champ

thats how ridiculous you sound Stu.

sorry mate but this is pure nonsense. It may be your point of view but its nonsense pure disney.

Undisputed Cruiserweight champ?

[J]

whatever wba wbc universally acclaimed best cruiserweight.

mr pedant.

[dondada]

I can't see how any British boxing fan would dislike Khan. It would be an interesting excercise to compare boxing before and after the Athens Olympics. It was Khan's success and huge popularity that got boxing back on terrestrial TV, got boxing on the back pages of the newspapers, got thousands of kids interested in boxing, got millions of lottery money given to our sport.
It seems many people on here just want to spend all their time knocking the popular or just knocking allegedly allegedly and would prefer boxing to be a fringe event, because it makes their own role more important. Yet some of the same people are so prepared to give Hennessy a free ride. If "the worst example of what is wrong with the general promotion of British boxing" is Khan (or I suppose the hype around Khan), then what about the empty hype about Tyson Fury, who did not achieve a fraction of what Khan did at a younger age as an amateur, or Froch, who was calling out Calzaghe when he was fighting eight-rounders and Steve Bunce used to call the "greatest prospect in world boxing" - a title Hennessy now gives to Fury?

1. So, you justify the hype given to Khan by saying 'what about Tyson Fury'? You mean the Fury about whom I did a little piece today entitled something like 'Is Tyson Fury getting too big for his boots?' and said he was cheeky to call Sam Sexton a step down. I should have taken the ITV hype to task a bit more but I didn't have the time when I did the copy. I don't like bullshit, end of. Doesn't matter who is shovelling it. I don't particularly like Sports Network because they do it more readily than most, in my opinion. Due to not having time or deep pockets, I'm not saying anything else.

2. "I can't see how any British boxing fan would dislike Khan." Well, allow me to retort. As I've said, it's nothing about the kid personally - you're completely right about the Olympics and the big rise in popularity. But since, we have been told regularly about how he's the next best thing since sliced bread...when he isn't. Fine. That's a promoter's job and also the TV companies'. But when people are told that his shit opposition are danger men, it's just insulting and inaccurate. Although, to be fair, he's so chinny that some who shouldn't be are danger men! You might also say that's their job too. But, in the long run, it damages the sport. Even Joe Public know a stiff when they see one. Then they are 'persuaded' to part with decent money to see the fornicator blown away on PPV and think...what a load of shit. Rip off. Boxing's shite.

3. I'm interested in this assertion - "It seems many people on here just want to spend all their time knocking the popular or just knocking allegedly allegedly and would prefer boxing to be a fringe event, because it makes their own role more important." Go on then. Who?

[gobbles]

I can't see how any British boxing fan would dislike Khan. It would be an interesting excercise to compare boxing before and after the Athens Olympics. It was Khan's success and huge popularity that got boxing back on terrestrial TV, got boxing on the back pages of the newspapers, got thousands of kids interested in boxing, got millions of lottery money given to our sport.
It seems many people on here just want to spend all their time knocking the popular or just knocking allegedly allegedly allegedly and would prefer boxing to be a fringe event, because it makes their own role more important. Yet some of the same people are so prepared to give Hennessy a free ride. If "the worst example of what is wrong with the general promotion of British boxing" is Khan (or I suppose the hype around Khan), then what about the empty hype about Tyson Fury, who did not achieve a fraction of what Khan did at a younger age as an amateur, or Froch, who was calling out Calzaghe when he was fighting eight-rounders and Steve Bunce used to call the "greatest prospect in world boxing" - a title Hennessy now gives to Fury?

1. So, you justify the hype given to Khan by saying 'what about Tyson Fury'? You mean the Fury about whom I did a little piece today entitled something like 'Is Tyson Fury getting too big for his boots?' and said he was cheeky to call Sam Sexton a step down. I should have taken the ITV hype to task a bit more but I didn't have the time when I did the copy. I don't like bullshit, end of. Doesn't matter who is shovelling it. I don't particularly like Sports Network because they do it more readily than most, in my opinion. Due to not having time or deep pockets, I'm not saying anything else.

2. "I can't see how any British boxing fan would dislike Khan." Well, allow me to retort. As I've said, it's nothing about the kid personally - you're completely right about the Olympics and the big rise in popularity. But since, we have been told regularly about how he's the next best thing since sliced bread...when he isn't. Fine. That's a promoter's job and also the TV companies'. But when people are told that his shit opposition are danger men, it's just insulting and inaccurate. Although, to be fair, he's so chinny that some who shouldn't be are danger men! You might also say that's their job too. But, in the long run, it damages the sport. Even Joe Public know a stiff when they see one. Then they are 'persuaded' to part with decent money to see the fornicator blown away on PPV and think...what a load of shit. Rip off. Boxing's shite.

3. I'm interested in this assertion - "It seems many people on here just want to spend all their time knocking the popular or just knocking allegedly allegedly allegedly and would prefer boxing to be a fringe event, because it makes their own role more important." Go on then. Who?

That's aimed at any number of people of here, not you. I was actually thinking of it as something I had seen in other sports too. A football team gets successful, old time fans get fed up and envious of the new fans. There are any number of comments on here that relate to "real fans" as opposed to "casual fans". It always strikes me as horribly self-satisfying. Surely it's good that there are fans at all and the more the better. It's not a contest to be the best fans, we all follow the sport and the more boxing taking place and on TV the better.
The fact is there are no sports that exist without a huge amount of hype behind them. Think of all the hype behind tennis, or motor racing (remember the years when Jenson Button was seen as some sort of great superstar) and football is the worst. It's easy to turn around and accuse boxing promoters, or a boxing promoter, of ripping people off, but all sport is about making money.

And I don't remember any Khan fight really being sold for something it wasn't. Warren always said he needed to learn and not rush and he said he was giving him fights to improve him. It was Khan who said he wanted be world champion quicker than Naz. He probably believed it, but self-belief is a huge part of any fighter.

[stujones]

This is what I mean, Stu. You're like a starving dog with a rotten bone. You won't leave it alone even though it's shite.

So...Haye's reactions against Mormeck and Thompson were worse than Khan's against Limond and Gomez...?

It's like saying Arsenal let two in against both Chelsea and Aston Villa; Darlington only let one in against Mansfield and Brentford so they have a case at having a stronger defence. I know you don't like football so that one will have passed you by.

Anyway, the whole point of the poll was so I avoided getting into silly arguments with you. It's impossible to make you see sense because you always justify the unjustifiable to yourself.

This is what I mean, Stu. You're like a starving dog with a rotten bone. You won't leave it alone even though it's shite.

So...Haye's reactions against Mormeck and Thompson were worse than Khan's against Limond and Gomez...?

It's like saying Arsenal let two in against both Chelsea and Aston Villa; Darlington only let one in against Mansfield and Brentford so they have a case at having a stronger defence. I know you don't like football so that one will have passed you by.

Anyway, the whole point of the poll was so I avoided getting into silly arguments with you. It's impossible to make you see sense because you always justify the unjustifiable to yourself.

Actually, this is funny - cause I do like football, can remember having quite a heated discussion with you over the merits of Steve McClaren's England appointment.

Your football analogy is wrong, Darlington must face Chelsea and Aston Villa before we can make that assumption...and Khan hasn't. He's face his Mansfield and Brentfords... but then let in 5 to Barcelona (potentially, we don't know). We don't know how many he would conceed against Chelsea and Aston Villa cause he been caught by one yet.

Plus going back to boxing - Tito Trinidad chinny for going down against Lueshing? That was the example Khan used before Prescott - which was valid, now obviously blown out of the water after Prescott, but we don't know what other level of puncher can cause that much effect - likewise we don't what level Prescott is at. Had Herbie Hide just been KO'd by Vitali then his chin wouldn't been as rediculed as much - but he got KO'd by Joseph Chingangu also. It could be in 6/7 years time we could be saying "well no great shame getting sparked by Prescott, plenty have".

This whole thread is bizzare, spurned off a "silly little arguement" in which I was actually agreeing with you, but saying I'd like to see Haye caught clean by a big puncher to know for certain.

And thats my last post on the thread - I've said my bit on it... I'll let others have the last word

[dondada]

It's easy to turn around and accuse boxing promoters, or a boxing promoter, of ripping people off, but all sport is about making money.

And there's the rub. Not for me, it isn't. Not for the 99% of people who stump up the money. It's about special people doing things we'd love to do and can only dream of doing. It's about glory, triumph over adversity, immortality.

You're so right about football. I used to live and breathe it. Now it disgusts me but it's in the dna. It's like seeing your school sweetheart turning tricks for rich businessmen in hotels.

For promoters it might be about money. Not for us. Let's at least make them work for it.

[dondada]

Your football analogy is wrong, Darlington must face Chelsea and Aston Villa before we can make that assumption...and Khan hasn't. He's face his Mansfield and Brentfords... but then let in 5 to Barcelona (potentially, we don't know). We don't know how many he would conceed against Chelsea and Aston Villa cause he been caught by one yet.

The analogy isn't wrong. Your initial point was wrong and the analogy offered was simply used to reflect how wrong it was.

[stujones]

Your football analogy is wrong, Darlington must face Chelsea and Aston Villa before we can make that assumption...and Khan hasn't. He's face his Mansfield and Brentfords... but then let in 5 to Barcelona (potentially, we don't know). We don't know how many he would conceed against Chelsea and Aston Villa cause he been caught by one yet.

The analogy isn't wrong. Your initial point was wrong and the analogy offered was simply used to reflect how wrong it was. Now you are supporting the exact point I was making.

I was refering that Barcelona were better than Aston Villa and Chelsea.... my personal view point is that Prescott (Barcenlona) hits harder than Thompson or Mormeck (Aston Villa/Chelsea)... I think Enzo Mac hits harder than these two also, but I don't think he connected with Haye.

So if Darlington conceed 1 against Brentford, and 5 against Barcelona - we still don't know how they will perform against Aston Villa or Chelsea. I am inclined to say they will conceed 3 or more (making them worst than Arsenal/Haye), but we don't know and it is hard to say for certain.

Now if you stop quoting me and countering and misreading me I will stop replying, cause really this is silly. I AGREE I just said it is hard to judge cause they have been caught against different level of punchers. I will say, and I have said, that nobody can vote for Haye - cause he has not been cleaned KO'd yet. But I would like to stay a little more on the fence untill I see Khan in with someone more concussive than Gomez, but less Concussive than Prescott - which I believe Thompson/Mormeck, could be wrong - as Prescott is untested, but similarly he could be the next Valero.

Either way, both are chinny - both are vulnerable, its the main weakness of both and makes them both compelling - so I don't really see the importance of "who" is the most chinniest, they aren't going to be fighting each other. When Haye and Enzo's chins were discussed, and Herbies, well that was interesting and had some relevance.

[Bard of Boxrec]

lol at this thread.

i think the poll result tells you everything.

by the way, watch prescott go on to prove ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regards to this wrecking ball power we were all told he has.

[stujones]

well you seem to know stu. you seem very definite about it.



apparently Bredishas better power than the cat or mormeck both of whom carried their power to world class.




ps UTTER SHIT ABOUT THOMPSON BY THE WAY.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

When did I say that Prescott power WAS better - I said Could be. He has a far better KO percentage than early career Thompson... which is the only comparison that can be made at the moment. Hense my "Hard to say stance".

Prescott could be a Joe Calzaghe (e.g. someone who didn't carry the power into world class) or he could be the next Edwin Valero, Fretais etc. Yes, I personally think that Prescott will have a true punchers chance against anyone if he lands - much like I thought Ensley Bingham would. But I don't know that, hence I'm saying it is Hard to say.

Potentially, Prescott could be a bigger puncher than Thompson and Mormeck, who I maintain were strong guys - not dynamite punchers at world level (Rothman KO was class, but it was in the 9th/10th round) - could be... we don't know. But untill we do, we cannot write him off as a non puncher either.

My entire stance has been it is probable that Khan will get KO'd by someone like... let me think.... Casamayor (big but not dynamite puncher), but we don't know yet. Just because he has gone down against someone of a lower level, doesn't mean he will stay down against someone a level up (but potentiall below Prescott). Say an early 90's Heavyweight suffered a knockdown against Glenn McCory (but got up to win), and cleaned KO'd by Tyson - does that mean Bruno would stop him if he lands? Possibly, but not necessary. Khan hasn't faced that Bruno level of puncher, Haye has and was hurt more than Khan was against the McCory level of puncher.... and really, am I giving Mock too much credit, after all he is a Super Middleweight?

However, its all if buts and maybes. Not only is the analogy I have used show its an if, but and maybe - but we don't KNOW Prescott should be classed as the "tyson" (simply for this analogy), we don't really know should Prescott be higher than "Bruno"... he could be, he could be lower... we don't know. Hense why I have been saying "hard to say" but evidence points that Khan is weaker... but there isn't that much evidence yet.

And applogies on my "undisputed champion" post, I thought you were reffering to Thompson, not Mormeck. Sorry - yes, Momeck was undipsuted champion.

[stujones]

lol at this thread.

i think the poll result tells you everything.

by the way, watch prescott go on to prove ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regards to this wrecking ball power we were all told he has.

I completely agree with your first two sentences - I was agreeing with the OP, but somehow thought I wasn't. I am not one of the 2 people who have gone for Haye.

With your third sentence, well we will see on that (I hope anyway). I hope to see more of Prescott. I'm not sure who you mean about "told" - do you mean allegedly, or the posters on here... ? Nobody thought Prescott was much cop here pre fight, including myself. But I want to see more now.

[WildWaylon]

It is a rather silly thread, Khan is not good taking headshots or bodyshots. Haye goes over very occasionaly but gets up to win. At CW or HW they punch so much harder so if you get caught flush you may go over. I dont think Hayes chin is all that bad. You cant count the Thompson fight, Haye was exhausted and had nothing left. Calzaghe goes down from time to time but does anyone say Calzaghe has a bad chin. Haye and Calzage recover well and being knocked over fires them up and they go on to win. Someone referred to Prescott saying he is World class. I cant see that most of his opponents were people who had never won a fight. He does have heavy hands though and knew he could nail Khan when he got big headed and reckless. Limond actually caught Khan on the temple while Gomez chinned him. Khan cant take shots, any shots simple as that. Two years from now nobody will mention Khan and it may be sooner. After losing to Barrera if he takes on Murray and loses again that will be it.

[Eraserhead]

This argument was blown to pieces the moment I saw Prescott compared to Barcelona (potentially or not, it's insane).

Khan was out on his feet against a blown up, light hitting super featherweight (Limond).

He was heavily dropped by a shot to bits former super-featherweight who never rose above domestic level even in his prime(Gomez).

He was then stretched out by an untested and unknown South American with no big name wins and who was coming off a points struggle (Prescott).

Seriously, what's there to argue? Khan's a wonderfully talented kid with great handspeed and great physical tools - he just also happens to be chinny as fook. There have been plenty of good chinny fighters over the year. Maybe Haye's one of them, too? The key thing is, I don't care who Khan fights - he'll never pick up three world titles in his weight division. No way. Chinny or not, Haye's done that.

[gobbles]

The Gomez knockdown was NOT a heavy knockdown. "Hammered down" behave! He caught a punch on the nose in a clinch and went down briefly on one knee. Don't believe me, watch it

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3vMY6VRxl ... re=related

Shot from Mock did catch Haye on the temple, but he was a super-middleweight and he rocked him again later too.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XMXaNd9InlQ

[stujones]

I do like Gobbles' views on this, made some good posts - and I agree, and I am sure he voted Khan also.

I think the fact the Khan battered Gomez for most of the round he got KD showed how badly hurt he was, and similarly even against Limond - where he was definately "gone" (temple shot).. he recovered to practically have Limond out of there in the next round.

Now, he could have been the next Tito Trinidad, in which he falls to light punchers, but isn't out there and actually show a very good chin. Prescott got rid of that assumption, but as I have said - no-one knows just where Prescott lies in the scheme of things. Terrence is right in saying "he's no Mormeck/40+ Carl Thompson!" (not sure on the later), but he could get there, and he could get higher (Power wise I am refering to). There have been harder punching Cruisers than these. Was Jesse Ferguson rightfully labelled chinny for getting sparked by an early career Tyson? Because Tyson hadn't beaten anyone of note?

And the Mock fight showed Haye can be hurt by non punching smaller guys.

[Coco]

I do think Haye is chinny but his chin has held up in genuine world class, Khan needs to do that first before this can be debated further

[J]

Stu you state you are gonna stfu on this then crap on for four more posts that I cant really be arsed to read.

Potential power doesnt beat proven power fact.


So stick your potential psychobabble analogies up your potentially pompous arse, to be honest i got so bored reading half the post before last that this is definitely my last post on the subject.

[Datsue]

[Munro:]"But, you know I don't get into
theoretical arguments because most
of them seem ridiculous."
[Rasporich:] "Why?"
[Munro:] "Because most arguments that
pretend to be about, you know,
intellectual topics, seem actually sort
of simple ego struggles, simple
one-upmanship..."

[Autobarn]

Come on, we all know Carl Thompson is a puncher. If he has late power, to put away big, hard nasty fighters like Rothmann, Dunstan, Tafer...then surely he hits very effing hard indeed. Is this really open to debate?

[Datsue]

Come on, we all know Carl Thompson is a puncher. If he has late power, to put away big, hard nasty fighters like Rothmann, Dunstan, Tafer...then surely he hits very effing hard indeed.

No, mate it's obvious, Prescott is the new Tyson, Willie Limond hits harder -- not only pound-for-pound but actually fecking harder punch for punch -- than Jean-Marc Mormeck, getting dropped by a cuffing slap from Michael Gomez proves that one has a cement chin, Carl Thompson's a powder-puff guy who never stopped a decent fighter in his life & Haye must be chinny because it's the consensus that people around here like him, & because people around here don't like Amir Khan then he's infallible, & of course being a contrarian twat able to pontificate & whine about how nasty everyone is being to a major sports star makes you able to assume the self-righteous "Disgusted from Tunbridge Wells" tone that gobbles has perfected for every single fvcking post & reading two pages of this has made me want to kill myself.

Anything else I missed whilst I was away?

[Herol]

Very true. Thompson was a fantastic all-round athlete, despite his age, and far better than Willie Limond or Michael Gomez ever were (Prescott is yet to be assessed fully but he is currently far less proven than Thompson all-round.)

Its been said before but here it is again.

Lolenga Mock landed a horrible temple shot.

Haye was stopped on his feet vs the fantastic warrior Thompson, who was always in great condition, after punching himself out, in only his 11th fight.

Haye was hurt against Mormeck but his legs were also disorganised and stumbling as much as anything, as he was cornered and under pressure. He made a great decision to take a knee, because he got up and knocked out the undisputed champion on his home turf and hurt him like nobody had ever done before.

[Wrists]

How anyone can say that Khan's chin is better than Haye's is beyond me.

Neither has a stellar set of whiskers but as many say Kahn has been wobbled by non punchers like Limond and the first time he was clocked by a REAL lightweight puncher in Prescott is was all over red rover.

At least Haye has gotten up against the likes of Mormeck and Barrett - both very respectable punchers.

He was hit on the temple against Mock and was stopped ON HIS FEET against Thompson so there's your evidence, his chin is better than Khan's.

Stu - your digging yourself into a hole mate big style.

Regards

Wrists (Kev)

PS. Ian Mc - I see you legendary tolerance for 'bla bla rubbish thread' comments has come racing to the surface again!