John Keane deserves some sympathy

Chris the fighter · Post by **Chris the fighter** » 22 Jun 2004, 16:57

I know that some of you guys are boxing writers I have seen some of your pieces on the internet and some of you may write for boxing magazines. But I'm just wondering if boxing can be a hard sport to enjoy when an accident happens? We live in a free soceity and the boxer does make the choice to be a fighter but when a major injury or a death happens I think you do have to ask questions of yourself about why youi enjoy a sport where people get hurt. I thought about this a little because of the John Keane incident at the Harrison/ Bonin fight who has been criticised for a quick stoppage and maybe it was but then again maybe it is understandable given his background being involved in two ring deaths.
I'm just intested in your opinions from people who write about boxing.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 23 Jun 2004, 05:18

Chris the fighter wrote:I know that some of you guys are boxing writers I have seen some of your pieces on the internet and some of you may write for boxing magazines. But I'm just wondering if boxing can be a hard sport to enjoy when an accident happens? We live in a free soceity and the boxer does make the choice to be a fighter but when a major injury or a death happens I think you do have to ask questions of yourself about why youi enjoy a sport where people get hurt. I thought about this a little because of the John Keane incident at the Harrison/ Bonin fight who has been criticised for a quick stoppage and maybe it was but then again maybe it is understandable given his background being involved in two ring deaths.
I'm just intested in your opinions from people who write about boxing.

Boxing will never be safe and there will always, unfortunately, be tragedies. It is because one of the basic aims of the sport is to attempt to cause concussion in your opponent.

Refereeing, like most jobs, is a lot harder than it looks. John Keane had to make a snap decision and thought Bonin was being battered. In retrospect, it was a premature stoppage but the guy didn't exactly look comfortable in there anyway (at the time of the stoppage).

Rather 100 early stoppages than one late one.

In saying that, if his previous experiences are affecting him to such an extent that he can not adequately referee (and I don't think this is the case actually), then Mr Keane would have to think about packing it in.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 23 Jun 2004, 05:35

There are two main considerations here.

1. This is the boxer's living. Stopping a fight early could mean significant cash loss for the guy. Stuff the punters on this one. However, this is part of the game, you kind of accept this when you work out that a referee can sop you.

2. Health. The average amateur show will have way more early stoppages than a pro card, because they are so safety-conscious. Boxers are de facto brave, and in plenty of cases too brave for their own good. You know the feeling, you've been stung a couple of times, missed a few shots, maybe got some blood, and you just want to land on the other feller and you're stuffed if you're going to let the fact that he's a shed load better than you stop you. Far better to err on the side of caution. Like Ian says, better 100 early stoppages. "Live to fight another day" is a key expression here.

I'm actually in agreement with Keane on this one. If a guy turns away, he isn't 'protecting himself at all times'. I remember boxing a show in Abingdon where in the final bout our guy won when his opponent, the home guy, turned away. The crowd, corner, and boxer, went ballistic. But fair enough, you can't expose the back of your head and expect your opponent to stop punching.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 23 Jun 2004, 05:44

Any referee worth their salt will tell you that the health of a fighter is their primary concern. In cases where one man is the champion, or if a fighter is known to be very resilient some leeway is given, but even this is very dodgy territory.

I'm sure many of you here will have seen that dreadful minor flyweight title late last year, there was a whole thread about it here, where the champion was battered around the ring for almost three whole rounds, whilst the referee just stood there and watched. He trudged through a whole round like a zombie eating shot after shot, it was disgusting.

I am of the opinion that whilst premature stoppages can damage a fighters career and mar the contest, that this is far preferable than too late which can damage their health and mar the rest of their life.

Refereeing is a very hard job indeed, and in the main most referees do what they do for the right reasons.

neil r · Post by **neil r** » 23 Jun 2004, 07:49

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:
Chris the fighter wrote:I know that some of you guys are boxing writers I have seen some of your pieces on the internet and some of you may write for boxing magazines. But I'm just wondering if boxing can be a hard sport to enjoy when an accident happens? We live in a free soceity and the boxer does make the choice to be a fighter but when a major injury or a death happens I think you do have to ask questions of yourself about why youi enjoy a sport where people get hurt. I thought about this a little because of the John Keane incident at the Harrison/ Bonin fight who has been criticised for a quick stoppage and maybe it was but then again maybe it is understandable given his background being involved in two ring deaths.
I'm just intested in your opinions from people who write about boxing.
Boxing will never be safe and there will always, unfortunately, be tragedies. It is because one of the basic aims of the sport is to attempt to cause concussion in your opponent.

this is one of these statements that i always disagree with, and its the one most often raised by those looking to ban the sport.

As far as I am aware causing concussion is not a basic aim. The basic aim of all boxing amateur and pro, is to land punches which score points. There for when judging fights punches which land with deliberate intent to the head are scored just the same as soft jabbing blows to the midriff. this is particularly the case in amateur boxing. landing these punches is a basic skill, where as landing concussive blows can be done by anyone, skillful or not.

It is a by product, particularly in pro boxing that one of the easiest ways to stop a fight is by ko, therefore landing heavier blows, that may cause concussion is a means to an end but not always encouraged. Many of the most skillfull fighters we have seen do not have great records at knocking out opponents. In particular here im thinking about the lighter fighters in particular Ken Buchanan, who from 69 fights won 61, less than half a dozen of them by true ko's as opposed to tko's where the ref stops the fights for whatever reason.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 23 Jun 2004, 08:17

Yes good points, however, every single punch can potentially cause life-threatening injury, and the fact is that many fighters, probably the majority, seeing as more fighters have more KO's than distance fights, like to get knockouts.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 23 Jun 2004, 09:10

"As far as I am aware causing concussion is not a basic aim. The basic aim of all boxing amateur and pro, is to land punches which score points. There for when judging fights punches which land with deliberate intent to the head are scored just the same as soft jabbing blows to the midriff. this is particularly the case in amateur boxing. landing these punches is a basic skill, where as landing concussive blows can be done by anyone, skillful or not. "

Ok let me put it this way.

-The basic aim of boxing is to land punches which score points (including punches to the head)
-Punches to the head cause concussion to the recipient
-Part of the basic aim of boxing is to cause concussion

"When judging fights punches which land with deliberate intent to the head are scored just the same as soft jabbing blows to the midriff." In my experience, this is not reflected in scorecards, either amateur or professional.

"Concussive blows can be done by anyone, skilful or not." No, they can't.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 23 Jun 2004, 10:18

Chris the fighter wrote:I know that some of you guys are boxing writers I have seen some of your pieces on the internet and some of you may write for boxing magazines. But I'm just wondering if boxing can be a hard sport to enjoy when an accident happens? We live in a free soceity and the boxer does make the choice to be a fighter but when a major injury or a death happens I think you do have to ask questions of yourself about why youi enjoy a sport where people get hurt. I thought about this a little because of the John Keane incident at the Harrison/ Bonin fight who has been criticised for a quick stoppage and maybe it was but then again maybe it is understandable given his background being involved in two ring deaths.
I'm just intested in your opinions from people who write about boxing.

You know the score, Chris. Nobody wants to see anyone get hurt but at the same time, there's a distinct line between stopping a fight too early and too late. If you stop a fight too early, the bad taste never goes away. A fight halted too late, is just as sickening and, yes, dangerous.
A good referee knows the middle ground.

PS: John Keane refereed the fights involving the deaths of Bradley Stone and James Murray in 1994 and 1995 respectively. Both fighters had really struggled to make the weight and were dangerously dehydrated as the fights went into the later rounds (thus no protective fluid around the skull).
The danger area Bunce referred to after the Harrison-Bonin fight is, yes, the later rounds of a fight. But only with dehydrated fighters. Virtually all ring deaths occur in the later rounds of a fight involving a man who has struggled to make the weight. Not with heavyweights. The last heavyweight to die in a boxing ring was, I think, Sonny banks in May 1965 in Philadelphia. Banks suffered bleeding of the brain after being knocked out in five rounds by the brutal Leotis Martin (who later knocked out Sonny Liston).

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 23 Jun 2004, 10:21

jamesmcdonnell wrote: I'm sure many of you here will have seen that dreadful minor flyweight title late last year, there was a whole thread about it here, where the champion was battered around the ring for almost three whole rounds, whilst the referee just stood there and watched. He trudged through a whole round like a zombie eating shot after shot, it was disgusting.

Jack The Butcher Reiss - lest we forget.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 23 Jun 2004, 10:35

I tried to start a campaign to get Reiss fired from his job as a ref, but to no avail, the man should never ever be allowed to referee a fight again. Even someone with no experience could see that the guy was getting murdered in there.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 23 Jun 2004, 10:46

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I tried to start a campaign to get Reiss fired from his job as a ref, but to no avail, the man should never ever be allowed to referee a fight again. Even someone with no experience could see that the guy was getting murdered in there.

Too right, the man is a f*****g loose cannon, just the thing boxing can do without. There's always the talk about boxing shooting itself in the foot, well this guy will ensure it shoots itself in the head.

It's just amazing he passes the IBF exams to become a referee. Presumably they review his "work" from time to time? What the hell are they looking for exactly?!
Pedro Fernandez reported recently that Reiss almost allowed some guy killed in the ring, and that was before the fight you just mentioned.

Jacko11 · Post by **Jacko11** » 23 Jun 2004, 12:26

In my opinion Terry O'conner is the worst ref then Ian John Lewis then John Keane

J · Post by J » 23 Jun 2004, 12:30

ian john lewis you sure, reckon he is usually pretty competent.
terry o conner has been dishing out some odd decisions of late but is that really his fault or the archaic idea the ref scores the fight, bout time that was changed in my view.
its noever easy bieng a ref in sport and its all too easy to knock em, Ibut I do think Ian John Lewis is one of the best around these shores.

Jacko11 · Post by **Jacko11** » 23 Jun 2004, 12:40

I wouldnt complain bout Lewis ususally but the Neil Simpson Peter Oboh fight was a disgrace.Oboh held NON STOP throughout the fight and the crowd at ringside were shouting at the ref about it and for some strange reason he did nothing,as a result Neil took a beating badly as his head was being pulled down all through the fight,also O'conner has gave me two wierd decisions on my own shows where i KNEW i had done enough to draw against unbeaten Alan Jones and last time out against Cito yeah i admit i wasn't on form at all that night but beat him and got a draw

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 23 Jun 2004, 12:48

Jacko11 wrote:In my opinion Terry O'conner is the worst ref then Ian John Lewis then John Keane

O'Connor giving Sito a draw against you having nothing to do with it, Jacko?

He's one of many good refs we have in my opinion - but John Keane has a history of never quite getting it right. And if he's going into fights thinking about past tragedies, he really shouldn't be officiating.
He's not looking at fights objectively enough.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 23 Jun 2004, 13:06

bennie wrote:
Jacko11 wrote:In my opinion Terry O'conner is the worst ref then Ian John Lewis then John Keane
O'Connor giving Sito a draw against you having nothing to do with it, Jacko? He's one of many good refs we have in my opinion - but John Keane has a history of never quite getting it right. And if he's going into fights thinking about past tragedies, he really shouldn't be officiating.
He's not looking at fights objectively enough.

If John Keane's tragic experiences lead him to stopping a fight prematurely, then he should stop refereeing.

tea · Post by **tea** » 23 Jun 2004, 13:28

Remember Chavez v Taylor.......let em fight.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Jun 2004, 13:44

Who was the ref in the Craig Docherty vs Kapto Allotey fight? That was stopped to soon IMO. If that was Keane aswell, then I do think some question may be asked.

I actually think Ian John Lewis is the best referee around at the moment (maybe Jacko has had a bad experience with him) he should have stoped the Docherty's first Commonwealth title fight, but apart from that I haven't spotted a fault - and has even had praise from American posters for his performance in the Mitchell vs Stewart fight.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 23 Jun 2004, 13:50

stujones wrote:Who was the ref in the Craig Docherty vs Kapto Allotey fight? That was stopped to soon IMO. If that was Keane aswell, then I do think some question may be asked.

Good one, Stu. That was a shocker.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 23 Jun 2004, 13:52

PS: I've just checked and it was Keane.

REAL_DEAL · Post by **REAL_DEAL** » 23 Jun 2004, 13:57

Allotey had a spec of blood on him and got stopped, fight before docherty had a gash and blood flowing but that wasnt stopped

double standards

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Jun 2004, 14:06

Well, without being disrespectful to Keane who obviously has endured alot, they are the two worst (from premature) stoppages I have ever seen.

I do think a fighters history must be taken into account. For example, Jimmy Garcia had no KO record and Gabe Reaulas had a good chin. Really, that fight should have been stopped alot earlier when it was obvious that Garcia COULDN'T win the contest (i.e. too much of a points defacit, no chance of the KO).

Barry Jones vs Acelino Freitas could have been stopped a round earlier for that respect also.

However, the Allotey and Bonin stoppages went to far because both still had a chance. It was still physically possible for Allotey to win and certainly Bonin.

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 23 Jun 2004, 14:13

Aye, Ian John Lewis reffed the fight where Docherty had the bad gash, where the fight really should have been stopped.

It does appear Keane may suffering a bit, in which case he should retire.

I'm also not a fan of O'conner. I dunno what it is about him, he looks very uncomfortable when he is officating. Maybe it is is size which makes him look a bit cumbersome, but for me, he is lacking in something else as well. A couple of dodgy decisions haven't helped, and the Sprott/Williams fight was very poorly handled.

Jacko11 · Post by **Jacko11** » 23 Jun 2004, 15:35

I totally agreed with Bobby Vanzie's comments in last weeks's bn if anyone read it about O'Conner.
Bennie O'conner twice went the other way on my fights i don't understand why when ref's have given it to me b4 when i didnt think i won by the margin they thought....
The jones fight i watched over and over and there is no way Jones shared any of the first 3 rounds(the fight was (6 x 2) he won the last 3 and O'conner gave it a win to him...

Cito..ok i may sound like i am moaning and i am going to stick up for my self as any of you lot would but Bennie u were there i always admit when i lose that night my work rate alone won 3 good rounds....any way 'lol' Jacko is back july

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 23 Jun 2004, 17:30

Agree with what you say about your fights, Jacko, but not about Vanzie. He didn't mention how O'Connor allowed him to get away with blatantly elbowing Graham Earl (O'Connor could have deducted a point) and hitting Stephen Smith below the belt. He wants it all his own way.
I get the impression Vanzie thinks he's smarter than your average fighter. But his next fight is already lost (the Board). You, on the other hand, will be fighting to win in July.
That's the difference.

John Keane deserves some sympathy

John Keane deserves some sympathy

Re: John Keane deserves some sympathy

Re: John Keane deserves some sympathy

Re: John Keane deserves some sympathy