If Norton beat Ali 2out of 3 times according to the judges

[pound per pound]

If Norton beat Ali 2out of 3 times according to the judges, where would he rate?

Would you rate him higher then Charles, Walcott, Patterson, and Frazier?

[Robinson]

No doubt higher, but I think if he held the so called
'linear' title he would be ranked higher by a great many
guys.

[Goodnight, Irene]

No doubt higher, but I think if he held the so called
'linear' title he would be ranked higher by a great many
guys.

That's how I see it, as well. Holding the linear title does a lot for history's view of you, sometimes fairly, sometimes not. Norton got a raw deal in their third bout. Even Ali openly stated he lost the fight. Watching the interview (post-fight) it's clear it isn't Ali being kind to Norton, either. He clearly looks dejected & disappointed.

Anyway, Norton's career would've taken an interesting turn, had he won the belt. A fourth match with Ali nearly took place in 1978 --- had Norton won the 1976 meeting, would that force a fourth fight? Very possibly, given Ali's popularity. If that came off & Norton won it, opponents on the horizon included Jimmy Young, George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, & Larry Holmes. I would have to think Norton would do what he could to avoid a return with Foreman (with their roles curiously reversed from their previous meeting), but he ended up meeting the rest of those names. Perhaps even a fight with Spinks might've come off, if Norton held the title long enough.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

[quote="pound per pound"]If Norton beat Ali 2out of 3 times according to the judges, where would he rate?

- What's this "if" business? Norton fans know he whooped Ali 3 of 3 clean.

Maybe Holmes a tougher bout after a long Norton career, but he got Holmes as well. It's Ali and Holmes I downgrade, not upgrade Norton. Young is the one deserving more credit and Foreman for fighting him and doing better than Ali did. Holmes certainly dodged a bunch of those dangerous 70s and 80s fighters.

[dempseyfire]

I consider Norton to have won the 3rd Ali fight, but that doesn't place him higher than Frazier,Walcott or Charles on my list. He is above Patterson though.

[Robinson]

Holmes Beat Norton convincingly.

Holmes would beat Norton prime for prime most nights.

But had Holmes met Norton prior to say 1977 id lean on
Nortons to win.

[pound per pound]

I consider Norton to have won the 3rd Ali fight, but that doesn't place him higher than Frazier,Walcott or Charles on my list. He is above Patterson though.

But why? beating Ali twice trumps the best wins Walcott or Charles had.

[Ezzard]

I don't see any difference at all. Norton and Ali put in their performances and the judges scored it in a certain way. Who gets the nod does not change what happened in the ring.

I'll make myself even more unpopular than I already am now, but sometimes performance does man more than result.

[dempseyfire]

I consider Norton to have won the 3rd Ali fight, but that doesn't place him higher than Frazier,Walcott or Charles on my list. He is above Patterson though.

But why? beating Ali twice trumps the best wins Walcott or Charles had.

Impressive results, but the Ali that Norton beat was definitely past his prime (and while he still had some great performances in the 70s, was clearly overweight for the first fight and by the 3rd was treading water as a fighter . . I think their rematch really could have gone either way but it showed that a peak Ali, while always having problems with Ken, would in all likelihood beat him) I would favor the best Walcott or Charles easily over both of those Alis. I also consider Walcott to have won the first Louis fight despite the judges, which to me is better than anything Norton ever did.

[Ambling Alp]

However, Louis was way past his best when he fought Walcott.

[dempseyfire]

However, Louis was way past his best when he fought Walcott.

I agree, but I would still personally rate that Louis over any of the Alis Norton fought.

[sweetsci]

Yes, Norton would've been ranked higher had he gotten the decision in the third Ali fight.

Timeline-wise, things might not have changed that much. Norton beats Ali in September 76, defends against Bobick & Young in 77 (and probably not Zanon, but then Holmes did), and loses to Holmes in 78. Foreman's out of the picture because he loses to Young before Norton's first defense.

Of course, had Norton gotten the decision against Ali in 76, that might have paved the way for Ali-Norton 4. And had the above sequence taken place, Leon Spinks would've never... (fill it in from here).

[pound per pound]

I consider Norton to have won the 3rd Ali fight, but that doesn't place him higher than Frazier,Walcott or Charles on my list. He is above Patterson though.

But why? beating Ali twice trumps the best wins Walcott or Charles had.

Impressive results, but the Ali that Norton beat was definitely past his prime (and while he still had some great performances in the 70s, was clearly overweight for the first fight and by the 3rd was treading water as a fighter . . I think their rematch really could have gone either way but it showed that a peak Ali, while always having problems with Ken, would in all likelihood beat him) I would favor the best Walcott or Charles easily over both of those Alis. I also consider Walcott to have won the first Louis fight despite the judges, which to me is better than anything Norton ever did.

Louis was past his best when Walcott was robbed of a win. However keep in mind that Norton beat Ali, before Ali beat either Frazier or Foreman.

So in my mind Norton beat a close to prime Ali. Wins over Quarry, a hot Jimmy Young, a close points loss to a prime Holmes, and blow out over Bobbick are all part of Norton's resume.

In fact Norton whipped some of the guys Frazier fought in better fashion than Smokin' Joe did. Catch Norton vs Stander or vs Quarry.

Norton also did better vs Ali than Frazier did.

[squiggy]

- What's this "if" business? Norton fans know he whooped Ali 3 of 3 clean.

One of these days, I really want to see a Norton fan's scorecard for the second fight.

[Syntax Error]

If Norton beat Ali 2out of 3 times according to the judges, where would he rate?

Would you rate him higher then Charles, Walcott, Patterson, and Frazier?

Tbh, I don't think it would alter his standings at all.

Yes, he was probably Ali's must difficult foe (I believe that Ali never solved the conundrum that was Ken Norton), but Ali was clearly past his best in 1973 & 1976, so it's not a true reflection IMO.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I would say the Ali of '73 who twice fought Norton was better than the '48 model of Louis.

[dempseyfire]

- What's this "if" business? Norton fans know he whooped Ali 3 of 3 clean.

One of these days, I really want to see a Norton fan's scorecard for the second fight.

I scored it a draw but think it could've gone to either fighter. A SD for Ali isn't a robbery.

This was my round by round posted in an earlier thread:

"Here we go:

Rounds 1-3: Ali dancing, feet as fast as before the layoff. Norton stalking, landing occasional hard body shots that pay later dividends. Round 2 closer as neither fighter lands much but Norton lands the harder shots. Ali showing some beautiful foot-speed and a hard consistant jab. I score all rounds Ali.

Round 4: Ali dancing, still throwing the hard jab. Norton focusing on the body. Ali lands some nice combinations. Norton comes on in last 20 seconds, lands best punch of the night so far, a right hand, at the bell but still Ali outlanded him for most of the round. Round to Ali

Round 5: Ali still dancing, but not throwing the jab as much . .Norton steps up the pace and starts to throw and land the jab much more often. His pressure is getting to Ali. Lands some hard body shots against the ropes. Ali steps it up in the last 20 seconds but Norton comes back with hard left hooks. Norton round

Round 6: Ali looking more tired. Norton easily slipping Ali's jabs and countering with his own jab. Ali lands his best punches in the final minute with a sharp right hand and left hook, but it only stirs Norton to anger who comes back with his jab. Closer round, but I edge it to Norton.

After 6 I have it Ali: 4 Norton: 2

Round 7: Ali again tired. Norton pressing, landing good combinations on the ropes. Last minute, Norton starts really working Ali over on the ropes. Ali hurt. Norton's best round by far so far; Round to Norton.

Round 8: Ali still dancing but not as fast. Ali lands some nice counters flat-footed. Norton landing a few good shots while Ali's on the ropes. A closer, quieter round. Norton lands a HARD left hook and right hand combination in the final 30 seconds, along with a final left hook at the bell that gives him the round; Round to Norton.

Round 9: Norton slipping most of Ali's jabs. Landing his own jab. Good right hand from Norton. Norton working over Ali's body against the ropes again. Ali lands a couple of right hands which stun Norton, but it's not enough to pull the round and Ken comes back with his own shots: Round to Norton

Round 10: Ali opens up with a beautiful one-two. Ali coming back with movement and the jab. Norton is tired. Norton in the last minute begins to land with Ali on the ropes, including two big left hooks. Close round, I give it to Ali. Round to Ali.

After 10 I have it Ali 5 Norton: 5

Round 11: Ali starts off the round strong. They stand toe to toe. Norton hurts Ali to the body and starts really working Ali over. Both fighters tired. Ali able to avoid Norton's follow-up. Norton lands a good uppercut to Ali. Ali evades Norton and makes a mini-comeback in the final 10 seconds. Round to Norton.

Round 12: Ali giving it all he has. Lands some great combinations. Norton dead tired. Norton comes on in final minute to lands some hard hooks but it's not enough to win the round. Round to Ali.

Final score is 6-6. Dead even. I wouldn't have a problem with someone scoring the 6th for Ali nor would I have an issue with round 4 even as the commentators did.

Final Verdict: Close fight that could have gone EITHER WAY."

[Collins2000]

- What's this "if" business? Norton fans know he whooped Ali 3 of 3 clean.

One of these days, I really want to see a Norton fan's scorecard for the second fight.

You must have missed Dopey Dave's card then.

He admitted to being a Norton fan but claimed his scoring was totally objective and said he had no ax to grind etc.

His card was........................ wait for it...............................

Norton - 10 rounds
Ali - 1 round
Even - 1 round

[jaclem2]

...norton was still in the mix when ali took on leon spinks. had ali won there was a good demand for norton 1V and at the end of his fight with leon ali did not appear to by woefully saddend. in the rematch it was obvious that leon didn't belong in the ring with even a faded ali, because ali really tried this time and then he "retired" and norton never did get that fourth match,
so..if ali was really trying to win and this was the best he coujld do in spinks 1 then norton would have beaten him easily.
The ali of the second fight with Spiinks wasn't all that much either, and he was trying - - and norton would have beaten him on that night as well.

[Robinson]

I had Ali v Norton II as a draw.

Basically I had the first 5 rounds to Ali. As well as the last round.

Then had the middle rounds for Norton.

114-114.

But I felt the 7th could have been a 10-8 round in Norton's favour.

Could have scored it either way and I would not find an argument,
but not a land slide win for either man.

Ali vs Norton III i had as a clear win for Norton.

I had it 145-140 Norton or 10 rounds Norton, 5 rounds to Ali.

And the first fight I had for Norton.

[Ambling Alp]

As for the original thread:

If Norton beat Ali 2out of 3 times according to the judges, where would he rate?

Would you rate him higher then Charles, Walcott, Patterson, and Frazier?

I would hope that people wouldn't let the official verdict of a fight (That they saw and strongly disagree with) influence how they rate someone.

Where should Norton be rated?
Well, certainly not as high as Frazier.
He should be rated in the same class as Charles, Walcott, Patterson, Fitzsimmons, and other mid-level champions (like Corbett, Sharkey,Schmeling,Baer), and contenders like Langford,Wills, Jeannette, and McVey.

Norton should get a lot credit for the first two Ali fights; and his fights against Holmes, Quarry, and Young. ie- Most of his big fights.

The Young fight in particular is vastly underrated.

The blowout of Bobick was a big deal at the time; but lost it's luster after Bobick got blown out by other guys later. Still, it was an impressive albiet brief performance by Norton.

I do hold the 3rd Ali fight against him; but not because he didn't get
the decision in a close fight. It's because he didn't perform well. Ali was past it and ripe for the taking; for the most part just fighting in spurts. However, Norton was overly cautious. Had he been as aggressive as he had been in other fights he could have won easily.

The Foreman fight has to be held against him; though it must be factored in that almost everyone got crushed by Foreman as well.

I don't hold the Cooney fight (he was way over the hill by that point) against him all and really not the Shavers fight either.

What seems unfair is the criticism that you hear from time to time that Norton didn't have a good chin. As I have said before, with the exception of the Foreman fight he was never even knocked down in any other fight during his prime.

Walcott, Charles,Patterson, Corbett, Fitzsimmons,Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer, Langford, Wills,Jeannette, and McVey all had their pluses and minuses as well. (They all got knocked out multiple times as well.)

Norton is right in the mix with them.

[dempseyfire]

- What's this "if" business? Norton fans know he whooped Ali 3 of 3 clean.

One of these days, I really want to see a Norton fan's scorecard for the second fight.

You must have missed Dopey Dave's card then.

He admitted to being a Norton fan but claimed his scoring was totally objective and said he had no ax to grind etc.

His card was........................ wait for it...............................

Norton - 10 rounds
Ali - 1 round
Even - 1 round

That was one of the worst scorecards I've ever seen!

[Collins2000]

You must have missed Dopey Dave's card then.

He admitted to being a Norton fan but claimed his scoring was totally objective and said he had no ax to grind etc.

His card was........................ wait for it...............................

Norton - 10 rounds
Ali - 1 round
Even - 1 round

That was one of the worst scorecards I've ever seen!

In his defence he did eventually admit that he'd only ever watched it on Youtube and it was in the days when the biggest screen size on there was about the size of a matchbox. Even so he must have also been near blind to have come up with that score card.

I thought he'd got fights (1) and (2) mixed up but he was adamant it was the rematch he was scoring.

Crankberry naturally saw a fellow hater and before you could say 'northpaw' they were an internet item.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- What's this "if" business? Norton fans know he whooped Ali 3 of 3 clean.

One of these days, I really want to see a Norton fan's scorecard for the second fight.

- One of these days I'll roust my card up for the details. I recall scoring 8-4 Norton

Ali was still gunshy from the jaw and took off too many rounds with defensive footwork and air jabs. Norton also had him in some trouble in the midrounds and was the confident fighter carrying the battle.

The only one of their fights that was close was the title fight where Ali has something to fight for. I only include it as a robbery because of the nature of the overall scoring of the Norton series and the way he was jacked around by the orgs. His rep takes a dive from being vulnerable to some of the big whackers of the era, but nobody ever outworked or outboxed him, least of all Ali or Holmes.

Interesting how this view upsets the applecart here. Some are easily threatened, and yes, I regard Kenny as a better fighter than Floyd, Jersey Joe, or Corbett who were mentioned in his class. He was not a bigger name or legend than they were, a distinction lost in the rush to outrage over anyone challenging the sainted Ali or other legends of boxing.

[Collins2000]

- What's this "if" business? Norton fans know he whooped Ali 3 of 3 clean.

One of these days, I really want to see a Norton fan's scorecard for the second fight.

- One of these days I'll roust my card up for the details. I recall scoring 8-4 Norton

Ali was still gunshy from the jaw and took off too many rounds with defensive footwork and air jabs. Norton also had him in some trouble in the midrounds and was the confident fighter carrying the battle.

The only one of their fights that was close was the title fight where Ali has something to fight for. I only include it as a robbery because of the nature of the overall scoring of the Norton series and the way he was jacked around by the orgs. His rep takes a dive from being vulnerable to some of the big whackers of the era, but nobody ever outworked or outboxed him, least of all Ali or Holmes.

Interesting how this view upsets the applecart here. Some are easily threatened, and yes, I regard Kenny as a better fighter than Floyd, Jersey Joe, or Corbett who were mentioned in his class. He was not a bigger name or legend than they were, a distinction lost in the rush to outrage over anyone challenging the sainted Ali or other legends of boxing.

Yet the WBC gave him their title without him winning it in the ring. How many fighters have they done that for, PD?