Chagaev-Drumond is not for the WBA heavyweight title!

[DustbinDave]

Hello. As I am new to this forum, I apologise if this issue has been discussed in the past. However, I have noticed that Boxrec.com is suggesting that the fight between Ruslan Chagaev-Carl Davis Drumond is for the WBA heavyweight title.



As I understand it, Nikolay Valuev's fight against John Ruiz in August was not for the "vacant interim WBA heavyweight title". Likewise, as I understand it, his fight against Evander Holyfield in December was not for the "interim WBA heavyweight title". For the record, Boxrec.com agrees with those two statements because the term interim was not mentioned in the wording of either of the two titles.



This was an unprecedented step by the WBA because on the two previous occasions where a world heavyweight title holder was inactive due to injury, they kept the title and a match for the interim version of the title was set up, with the winner eventually taking on the title holder (when they returned from injury) for the world heavyweight title.


This was the case when title holder Vitali Klitschko was injured and the WBC set up a match for the interim version of the title between Hasim Rahman and Monte Barrett. Rahman (the winner) would have fought Klitschko for the WBC title but he was awarded the title upon the retirement of Klitschko in November 2005. Likewise, when title holder Oleg Maskaev was injured and the WBA set up a match for the interim version of the title between Samuel Peter and Jameel McCline, Peter (the winner) fought Maskaev for the WBA title in March 2008 and won the title.


On this current occasion, the WBA took the step of stripping Ruslan Chagaev of his WBA title (unlike the two previous occasions mentioned) and set up a match for his former title between Nikolay Valuev and John Ruiz in August 2008. Valuev (the winner) is therefore the holder of the WBA world heavyweight title.



The WBA also took the unprecedented step for the association of awarding Chagaev the title of the first ever "Champion In Reccess". However, this step was not entirely unprecedented in the heavyweight division as the WBC awarded Vitali Klitschko the title of "Champion Emeritus" upon his retirement in November 2005, which is virtually the same as "Champion In Reccess" (i.e. it gives the former title holder the same right - see below) but with a different name. The WBC also gave Lennox Lewis "Champion Emeritus" status upon his retirement in February 2004.



This title of "Champion In Reccess" gives Chagaev exactly the same right as what he would have possessed if he had kept his WBA title and if Valuev-Ruiz/Valuev-Holyfield had been for the WBA interim title (i.e. the right to fight the WBA interim title holder for the WBA title when he returned from injury). Likewise, the "Champion Emeritus" status gave Vitali Klitschko exactly the same right as what he would have possessed if he had kept the WBC title until his return to boxing in October 2008 and if all the WBA title fights during his period in retirement had been for the WBA interim title. The right being the opportunity to fight the WBA interim title holder for the WBA title when he returned from injury.


It goes without saying that the new title of "Champion In Reccess" is only relevant to Chagaev. To elaborate, when he faces Carl Davis Drumond, he is not defending his title of "Champion In Reccess" as it would not make sense for Drumond to hold that title. Therefore, I am of the understanding that the Chagaev-Drumond fight is a non-title fight.



On a different note, if Drumond wins the fight, would Chagaev still keep the title of "Champion In Reccess" and would he still have the right to fight Valuev for the WBA title?

[SteveO]

These are very good points dustbindave and I hope we get a definitive answer.
What a mess the WBA have gotten themselves into................

[Asterix]

Everywhere I've read has said that it was for the title. Even the commentator during the fight said that it was for the title, that both Valuev and Chagaev hold the title and they will settle it in a bout this year.

[DustbinDave]

I think the issue is further complicated by the fact that Ruslan Chagaev decided to fight Carl Davis Drumond in his first comeback fight and not the WBA world heavyweight title holder (Nikolay Valuev) for the world heavyweight title.

If Carl Davis Drumond had won the fight last night, would he (Drumond) be considered as the WBA world heavyweight champion?

If so, surely he would have been given the right to defend his title?

Maybe not if Chagaev had kept his title of "Champion In Reccess" as, presumably, he would still have the right to fight Valuev for the WBA title later this year?

On the face of it, therefore, the Drumond fight appears to be nothing more than just a warm-up fight for Chagaev for the Valuev fight, regardless of whether he had won or lost. It is therefore ridiculous that a world heavyweight title was at stake (if indeed it was)!

The only scenario in which the fight was more than just a warm-up bout for Chagaev is if the right to fight Valuev for the world heavyweight title had been passed over to Drumond if Drumond had won the fight.

If Drumond had won the fight, it is likely we would have had a farcical situation in which Chagaev (effectively a non-title holder if you don't include his "Champion In Reccess" status) would have fought Nikolay Valuev (effectively an interim champion in everything but name if you consider how he won his title) for the world heavyweight title later this year - whilst the WBA champion (if indeed Chagaev-Drumond was a world title fight) was kicking his heels at home.

Just as farcical, however, would have been if Drumond had won the fight and would have fought Nikolay Valuev for the world heavyweight title later this year, whilst Chagaev (who beat Valuev to become world heavyweight champion in April 2007) was kicking his heels at home.

[claudevsq]

I saw it live on TV, it was definitely for the belt. The WBA announced yesterday morning that the winner would be the "Heavyweight Champion", "co-champion" to Valuev, and would have to face Valuev by June. However, it seems as Valuev will make one voluntary defense in-between. We'll see...

[DustbinDave]

Thank you very much for that information, Claudevsq.

I suppose it would not make any sense for Chagaev to hold the title of "Champion In Recess" anymore (whether he had won or lost on Saturday) as he is no longer in a period of recess.

However Claudevsq, do you know what the official WBA line is in regards to the permutations of what would have happened if Drumond had won the fight on Saturday?

Presumably, Drumond and Valuev would have been co-champions but who would have had the right to fight Valuev later this year for the WBA title - Chagaev (non-title holder) or Drumond (WBA co-title holder)? If it was Chagaev who was given that right, would Drumond still be the WBA co-champion following the Chagaev-Valuev fight?

When the WBA announced Chagaev's status as "Champion In Recess" last year, they said that Chagaev had the right to fight Valuev (or, as it turned out, Holyfield - had he beaten Valuev in December) for the WBA title when he returned from injury, setting a deadline of June 2009 for this to happen.

I just wonder whether this automatic right was taken away from Chagaev when he announced that he was going to fight Drumond (for the WBA title as it now appears) before facing Valuev for the WBA title by June 2009!

As it turns out, it is academic as Chagaev won the fight.

[claudevsq]

Right, if Drumond would have won, he would now be the co-champion to Valuev, and would also have earned the right to fight Valuev, because this was a voluntary defense by Chagaev. He risked his title though he didn't have to... But it's academic, as you say, because he won... He's not in recess anymore since the fight, both are equal champions and will fight one another, hopefully no later than June 26th, as announced... If Chagaev would have lost, he wouldn't be the champion anymore now, nor the champion in recess... "Recess" automatically stops when you fight again... I wonder what Asloum will do, being in recess since June 1st, 2008... He won his title in 2007 and never made a defense, still, he's the champion (in recess)... The WBA really should change its rules, in my oppinion!

[Emaster]

Here's what I make of this mess:

On July 4, 2008, WBA heavyweight title holder Ruslan Chagaev was declared "champion in recess". That raises the question what happened to his title. I think that he kept it. He was not stripped of it.

But if Chagaev was still recognized as the title holder, how could Nikolay Valuev win that very title? How could it have been vacant prior to Valuev's fight with John Ruiz? And what does "champion in recess" mean if Chagaev was still the holder of the title?

The WBA awards three kinds of world titles: the interim title, the regular title and the super champion's title. And as to the regular title, they have established two statuses a champion can be in: the status of the "active" champion and the status of the champion in recess. Both statuses refer to the same title, the regular title. Thus, two boxers can be recognized as WBA regular title holders at the same time.

On July 4, 2008, Ruslan Chagaev kept his regular title. Merely his status as a champion was altered from "active" champion to champion in recess. The vacant "active" spot was at stake on August 30, 2008 when Nikolay Valuev faced John Ruiz. As Valuev won the fight, he became the "active" regular title holder. Since that day, there have been two WBA regular title holders whose statuses as champions have differed: Chagaev has been the "champion in recess" and Valuev the "active" champion.

Chagaev defended his regular title on February 7, 2009 successfully. Evidently, he is not in recess any more. But the status of the "active" champion is still held by Valuev. The next WBA rating will show whether Chagaev is still deemed to be "in recess" in spite of his recent bout. If he was not deemed "in recess" any more, there would be two regular title holders who would not even be distinguishable by different statuses.

[claudevsq]

Your last sentence is right. The WBA sees both fighters as "Co-Champions". Probably, they'll fight each other in June.

[DustbinDave]

Thanks very much to claudevsq and Emaster for answering all my questions with such clarity!

The press reporting of the fight was so inconsistent because so many different media outlets didn't know what was at stake!

Many referred to Ruslan Chagaev as "Champion In Recess" post-fight, whilst others referred to Nikolay Valuev as "Interim Champion".

I guess the status of the fight was confused further by the fact that Chagaev's first title defence after his injury wasn't against Valuev for the WBA "undisputed" Heavyweight title - also, in regards to who had the right to fight Valuev for the "undisputed" title.

So thanks for sorting that out for me!

[KSTAT124]

Chagaev was not the first WBA "Champion in Recess". That distinction belonged to Travis Simms. After he was stripped by the WBA, Simms entered into a prolonged legal battle which resulted in him being named "Champion in Recess" and eventually getting a shot at then champion Jose Antonio Rivera.

The WBA currently lists light flyweight Brahim Asloum as a "Champion in Recess".

[Emaster]

The next WBA rating will show whether Chagaev is still deemed to be "in recess" in spite of his recent bout. If he was not deemed "in recess" any more, there would be two regular title holders who would not even be distinguishable by different statuses.

According to the latest WBA rating Chagaev has indeed remained champion in recess in spite of his recent title defense. Thus he and Valuev still bear different statuses while holding the same sort of WBA world title simultaneously.

[claudevsq]

But he IS still in recess, despite his title defence on February 7th, but they will fight each other anyway on May 30, so, let's just wait another 6 weeks, and there will be only one WBA heavyweight champ left, with Ruiz as mandatory challenger... Hope Chagaev vs. Valuev won't be a draw...

[Brute]

Ring Magazine had an article on the WBA in the late 1980s headed "Why Bother Answering?"

Little seems to have changed.

[DustbinDave]

Hello Claudevsq,

Right, if Drumond would have won, he would now be the co-champion to Valuev, and would also have earned the right to fight Valuev, because this was a voluntary defense by Chagaev. He risked his title though he didn't have to... But it's academic, as you say, because he won... He's not in recess anymore since the fight, both are equal champions and will fight one another, hopefully no later than June 26th, as announced... If Chagaev would have lost, he wouldn't be the champion anymore now, nor the champion in recess... "Recess" automatically stops when you fight again... I wonder what Asloum will do, being in recess since June 1st, 2008... He won his title in 2007 and never made a defense, still, he's the champion (in recess)... The WBA really should change its rules, in my oppinion!

Knowing what we now know, that Ruslan Chagaev remained "WBA Champion In Recess" following his February 7 victory over Carl Davis Drumond, does this change anything?

As Chagaev beat Drumond, he retained his title of "WBA Champion In Recess". So if Drumond had won the fight, would he have been the co-champion to Valuev as you previously suggested?

It seems very strange (I know it's happened before) for a world title to be on the line for only one of the two fighters but could this possibly have been the case on February 7? Interpret that in two different ways......either for Chagaev only in regards to his "WBA Champion In Recess" title or for Drumond only in regards to the WBA heavyweight title (which we now know that Chagaev wasn't fighting for).

I understand that the February 7 fight determined who would fight Nikolay Valuev (or who was meant to) to decide the outright holder of the title but I'm more interested in what would have happened if Drumond had won in regards to the world title immediately after February 7.

What are your thoughts?

[claudevsq]

Good question. I really don't know. I know though that the WBA will take a decision in the Chagaev/Valuev case this coming Friday, and I really am looking forward to see what they will be doing. Will they strip Chagaev and order Valuev-Ruiz III by August 30, as suggested by Don King? Or will they re-schedule Valuev-Chagaev for the end of June in Germany? Let's wait and see...

[Emaster]

So if Drumond had won the fight, would he have been the co-champion to Valuev [...]?

I don't think "co-champion" is meant to be an official term. It just confirms that Valuev and Chagaev hold the same title at the same time. They're both champions. Had Drumond won, he and Chagaev would have been simultaneous champions (co-champions), too.

It seems very strange (I know it's happened before) for a world title to be on the line for only one of the two fighters but could this possibly have been the case on February 7? Interpret that in two different ways......either for Chagaev only in regards to his "WBA Champion In Recess" title or for Drumond only in regards to the WBA heavyweight title (which we now know that Chagaev wasn't fighting for).

Chagaev's WBA heavyweight title was at stake for both Chagaev, who defended it, and Drumond, who would have captured it, had he won the fight.

[...] but I'm more interested in what would have happened if Drumond had won in regards to the world title immediately after February 7.

Drumond would have been new WBA heavyweight champion. As Valuev would still have held the "active" status, Drumond would probably have occupied the "in recess" status as Chagaev does now in spite of his being actually active again.

[DustbinDave]

Steve Bunce, the boxing pundit on Setanta, doesn't even know the full situation in regards to the WBA heavyweight championship belt and what he doesn't know about boxing isn't worth knowing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXWBmrz4exQ He discusses the situation in this youtube clip!

On Steve Bunce's Boxing Hour on Setanta Sports News (2pm on Thursdays) a few weeks back, they interviewed from the studio (live on air via phone) either the manager or promoter (can't quite remember) of Ruslan Chagaev. He said that when they were negotiating the terms of the contract for the Chagaev/Valuev fight on May 30, Valuev's status within the contract reflected the fact that he was the champion and Chagaev was the challenger.

In regards to what you are saying, Emaster, you appear to be saying that Valuev and Chagaev's status is equal in terms of they are both WBA champions, but different in terms of them holding different versions of the belt ('active' and 'champion in recess').

I started this thread, originally, to discuss whether a world title was on the line on February 7 in the Chagaev/Drumond fight and I guess we've concluded that it was as Chagaev was defending his version of the belt, the 'champion in recess' version. This we now know for certain.

However, this 'champion in recess' title had been created especially for Chagaev to reflect his 'inactive' status and I wouldn't have thought is was relevant to Drumond as it wasn't him who had spent a period in recess.

In my opinion, it is more likely that had Drumond won the fight on February 7, his status would be as the WBA champion as you say, but he would share the 'active' version with Valuev. However, on second thoughts, this is unlikely because the WBA were obviously unwilling to share the 'active' version of the title, otherwise they would have given Chagaev a share of it......which they didn't!

Or, perhaps more likely, there was no version of the WBA title, 'active' or 'champion in recess', on the line for Drumond......just the opportunity to decide who would fight Valuev for the outright title. It wouldn't be the first time that a version of the world title (or in this case a version of a version of a world title) was at stake for only one of the two fighters.

[Emaster]

On Steve Bunce's Boxing Hour on Setanta Sports News (2pm on Thursdays) a few weeks back, they interviewed from the studio (live on air via phone) either the manager or promoter (can't quite remember) of Ruslan Chagaev. He said that when they were negotiating the terms of the contract for the Chagaev/Valuev fight on May 30, Valuev's status within the contract reflected the fact that he was the champion and Chagaev was the challenger.

Wasn't it Valuev's promoter (Kalle Sauerland)? I doubt Chagaev's team would admit that Chagaev is only in a challeger position. He's even crossed out the addition of "in recess" in "WBA heavyweight champion in recess" on his name plate at a press conference.

However, this 'champion in recess' title had been created especially for Chagaev [...].

That's the crucial point: I don't think there is a "champion in recess title" which was given to Chagaev, but that Chagaev kept the very title he had already held before his recess. Only the status in which he held the title was changed from "active" to "in recess". Hence, the "active" spot of the title became vacant and was later filled by Valuev.

In my opinion, it is more likely that had Drumond won the fight on February 7, his status would be as the WBA champion as you say, but he would share the 'active' version with Valuev. However, on second thoughts, this is unlikely because the WBA were obviously unwilling to share the 'active' version of the title, otherwise they would have given Chagaev a share of it......which they didn't!

Or, perhaps more likely, there was no version of the WBA title, 'active' or 'champion in recess', on the line for Drumond......just the opportunity to decide who would fight Valuev for the outright title. It wouldn't be the first time that a version of the world title (or in this case a version of a version of a world title) was at stake for only one of the two fighters.

For Drumond it would have been kind of an eliminator in the case that the title was at stake for Chagaev only. That's possible, but I assume he would have just taken over Chagaev's place (title:WBA heavyweight, status: in recess). Of course, it is strange enough that Chagaev's status wasn't changed back to "active" after his fight with Drumond -- but that status has been held by Valuev -- but Drumond would even have captured the WBA heavyweight championship in recess -- in the ring!

[DustbinDave]

Wasn't it Valuev's promoter (Kalle Sauerland)? I doubt Chagaev's team would admit that Chagaev is only in a challeger position. He's even crossed out the addition of "in recess" in "WBA heavyweight champion in recess" on his name plate at a press conference.

Apologies, that was a typing error. Well spotted as I check my posts several times for errors and I missed that one. Yes, Valuev's promoter (if indeed it was Kalle Sauerland who was interviewed) told Setanta, if I heard correctly, that Valuev's status within the contract (or rather when they were discussing the terms of the contract, the terms within the contract reflected that this was his status, even if it technically wasn't) was as champion and Chagaev as challenger.

That's the crucial point: I don't think there is a "champion in recess title" which was given to Chagaev, but that Chagaev kept the very title he had already held before his recess. Only the status in which he held the title was changed from "active" to "in recess". Hence, the "active" spot of the title became vacant and was later filled by Valuev..

Yes, what you're saying makes total sense. The terms 'status' or 'version of the title' would have been more appropriate than 'title'. My point though is that 'champion in recess' only reflects Chagaev's situation......it would not have been relevant for Drumond to have such 'status' or such a 'version of the title' as it had not been him who had been in recess.

For Drumond it would have been kind of an eliminator in the case that the title was at stake for Chagaev only. That's possible, but I assume he would have just taken over Chagaev's place (title:WBA heavyweight, status: in recess). Of course, it is strange enough that Chagaev's status wasn't changed back to "active" after his fight with Drumond -- but that status has been held by Valuev -- but Drumond would even have captured the WBA heavyweight championship in recess -- in the ring!

Chagaev's 'status' after February 7 at least refers to the fact that he had spent a period in recess, even though it would have made more sense if it was 'champion out of recess' instead of 'champion in recess'. It's still strange as he won the title (or rather retained this status or version of the title) in the ring, but the title still has a certain amount of relevance to his situation! Had Drumond occupied the 'status' of 'champion in recess', it wouldn't have had any relevance whatsoever! I would have loved it if Drumond had won that fight. The WBA would have to have explained themselves and I guess it would have answered a lot of questions!