Better career - Lewis or Calzaghe?

[stujones]

Gobbles I disagree about whether Lewis had "opportunities" - DK owned the Heavyweight scene in the 90's. Lewis was in the minority of non DK fighters. DK did all he could to keep Lewis down.

[THEBUTCH]

Lewis by miles.

Loads of good class fighters could stay unbeaten if you avoid as many demanding fights as Calzaghe did. He'll be remembered as much for his low quality opponents as his unbeaten record.

[jayc]

They are easily two of my favorite fighters ever so im just not going to choose.

[gobbles]

The key of this debate is whether Calzaghe really did have opportunities to fight the likes of Jones/Hopkins "in their prime". I believe he didn't. Lewis got his chances because he was a heavyweight, and Olympic champion. Because of this was showcased in the US from early in his career. It's different for heavyweights, even Herbie Hide boxed in Vegas. But the freedom to move up and down weight classes works both ways. It also means other fighters have the freedom to move up and down weight classes to avoid you. We know that Hopkins agreed and then backed out of a Calzaghe fight, I don't think anyone really believes there was an offer for a Jones-Calzaghe, or Ottke-Calzaghe fight ever made by the other side. So who? The Johnson fight ended in a mess because of injuries and Joe's messy divorce, while Calzaghe picked Kessler ahead of Woods.

Yes, Lewis was dull. After he got sparked by McCall, Steward had him develop the same negative style he has given to Wladimir and how many exciting fights were there? Holyfield I was tense, Grant he did a job, even if he finished Grant off with a blatant foul, Briggs was exciting, against Golota he did a good job, but McCall 2, Akinwande, Mavrovic, Holyfield 2 and Tua were among the dullest heavyweight fights in history. Botha and Rahman were mismatches and Tyson was beaten before he got in the ring.

And, why is it all the anti-Calzaghe brigade on here, try to make things personal? Can't handle a debate without insults? Pathetic.

Gobbles, I think that listing Lewis's 'dull' (in your mind) fights is a fair approach. For Joe you could list his interesting fights, and write the rest off, as he only had a handful of interesting fights. It bores me just to list Joe's to be honest.

You like posting little snippets of other people's reactions to fights. Why not the overwheling, in the main, reaction to Lewis-Holy' II as a good fight, an exciting one even, in parts? A fight that gave a positive end to a foul boxing year (you can read about it in detail in that month's BM).

As for Lewis-Tua, that is a fine boxing display. With far more cohesion in the boxing than in many Joe fights. You should watch it again, Lewis was magical that night, in a fight that, unlike many of Joe's, people thought he would lose.

As for poor Joe being marginalised due to a lack of a medal and his weight class. Two words: Naseem Hamed. No medal, not a heavyweight, same promoter, prepared to fight anyone, and abroad, with the result being the exposure of the Kelly fight, and a ton of respect.

Joe's career was so tepid, so dull, his own promoter could not be arsed with it, until the other names had left the nest, leaving him to work on Joe. In the meantime Joe was happy to sign on for a number of years, not really pushing the issue of making his name, not even forcing his team to think, "Hang on, we have a commodity here." His dad persuaded him to fight Lacy a week prior to the fight.

Unlike Lewis, who was frozen out and still forced the issue. Your truely nonsensical posting on Tyson-Lewis-King shows that you might not be in full possession of the image of that title landscape. Don King hounded Lewis, sending him all manner of gifts, why? He wanted options? Why? King knows more about boxing psychology than most, he knew that a Tyson-Lewis fight = Game Over for Mike, and he wanted the future, Lewis, of the division under his banner. That is why Lewis was frozen out.

Joe could have made people take notice, you have to conclude that people cared so little for so long simply because the fighter seemed to care so little.

Hamed made his name off terrestrial TV. Huge difference. He used to get 10m viewers on ITV and went to Sky with that impetus. That is something that Calzaghe and Hatton lacked and it took both of them years to get over. By the time Calzaghe and Hatton were reaching their peak, Sky was interested only in football and investing in rugby union and cricket.

How many adverts do you ever see from Sky pushing boxing, unless it's a PPV? None. How many Sky adverts are in the papers or on billboards pushing football, cricket and rugby - lots and lots.

You can only fight the fights that are available. Hatton got breaks after fighting Tszyu, Calzaghe got breaks after beating Lacy. Would Haye be where Haye is without the emergence of Setanta?

One thing that always strikes me is that when Lewis did box in the UK, the one "home" title defence of his main championship reign and one UK appearance in the last nine years of his career, about 4,000 people turned up. Why was he so unpopular? Why did no one care? It would be interesting to have this debate in five years time, with a bit more distance.

[banjo]

Why was he so unpopular?

I'd have thought that was obvious, because he was a winner maybe?

Amazing that the yanks had more respect for our only undisputed heavyweight champion of the 20th/21st Century than Brits did.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Calzaghe had the better career. he had fewer opportunities and finished with a flawless record.[/quote]

what a load of shite.

Lewis was dull? Jesus, most of calzaghe's fight were a cure for insomnia. Calzaghe had plenty of opportunities, he just didn't want to travel anywhere and take them. He actually had the temerity to say he didn't travel abroad because he was scared of flying, and then was shown sitting at ringside for a fight in Vegas!

Lewis took stepaside money, because Tyson wasn't going to fight him no matter what happened, he would have just vacated the belt if Lewis didn't.

You must be Joe's nephew mate.[/quote]

The key of this debate is whether Calzaghe really did have opportunities to fight the likes of Jones/Hopkins "in their prime". I believe he didn't. Lewis got his chances because he was a heavyweight, and Olympic champion. Because of this was showcased in the US from early in his career. It's different for heavyweights, even Herbie Hide boxed in Vegas. But the freedom to move up and down weight classes works both ways. It also means other fighters have the freedom to move up and down weight classes to avoid you. We know that Hopkins agreed and then backed out of a Calzaghe fight, I don't think anyone really believes there was an offer for a Jones-Calzaghe, or Ottke-Calzaghe fight ever made by the other side. So who? The Johnson fight ended in a mess because of injuries and Joe's messy divorce, while Calzaghe picked Kessler ahead of Woods.

Yes, Lewis was dull. After he got sparked by McCall, Steward had him develop the same negative style he has given to Wladimir and how many exciting fights were there? Holyfield I was tense, Grant he did a job, even if he finished Grant off with a blatant foul, Briggs was exciting, against Golota he did a good job, but McCall 2, Akinwande, Mavrovic, Holyfield 2 and Tua were among the dullest heavyweight fights in history. Botha and Rahman were mismatches and Tyson was beaten before he got in the ring.

And, why is it all the anti-Calzaghe brigade on here, try to make things personal? Can't handle a debate without insults? Pathetic.[/quote]

We aren't the anti-calzaghe brigage, we're the reality or non-delusional brigade. Your reading of the history of the sport is being twisted to meet what you see as the facts. You say Lewis was dull, but then you yourself mention the fact he demolished Golota, Briggs and Grant in explosive performances - and let's not forget the Rahman rematch where he annihilated him with what is probably the hardest punch I've ever seen.

What about Ruddock and Morrison, again, explosive performances. The facts just don't match your warped reality I'm afraid. Joe had lots of dire performances, In fact I remember him being booed against who was it Jiminez. There were a few explosive performances from Calzaghe, the Brewer win was excellent for instance, but his career was often dull, partly because of the piss poor opposition in the other corner - the same cannot be said of Lewis whose level of opposition was stellar. Lewis fought Gary Mason, a top ranked heavyweight with a murderous punch and a fearsome career - a dangerous crossroads fight early in his career, and continued to take risks throughout. The same simply cannot be said for Joe.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Why was he so unpopular?

I'd have thought that was obvious, because he was a winner maybe?

Amazing that the yanks had more respect for our only undisputed heavyweight champion of the 20th/21st Century than Brits did.

It was more to do with Lennox's personality, and the fact that people thought his englishness was dubious. He wasn't a home grown talent as he'd learnt his boxing in Canada - and he had an aloofness and placidity to his demeanour which wasn't really a big ticket seller.

[ALI]

Lewis..... i would'nt even entertain this as a serious debate!

He picked up an olympic gold as an amatuer, then as a pro fought and beat everyone at heavyweight, he reigned supreme and took on all comers. About the only person he did not fight was Bowe (probably something to do with him smashing him up in the olympic final). It would have been good if he could have fought Tyson earlier, but then i dont think anyone holds that against Lewis, none of it was his wrong doing, and that certainly cant be said for Calzaghe!

[jamesmcdonnell]

Lewis..... i would'nt even entertain this as a serious debate!

He picked up an olympic gold as an amatuer, then as a pro fought and beat everyone at heavyweight, he reigned supreme and took on all comers. About the only person he did not fight was Bowe (probably something to do with him smashing him up in the olympic final). It would have been good if he could have fought Tyson earlier, but then i dont think anyone holds that against Lewis, none of it was his wrong doing, and that certainly cant be said for Calzaghe!

I suppose that you could say he missed fighting Byrd and Ruiz, but the fact is he fought far more dangerous opponents, so it's not much of a knock. Had he fought Bowe and Tyson earlier and beat them, he would be rated even more highly than he is.

I do think Holyfield would probably have beaten him if they'd fought a few years earlier - he gave Lennox a lot of problems in both fights.

[Autobarn]

Not fighting Byrd and Ruiz means bugger all really. There were numerous rival champs that Larry Holmes didn't fight (Dokes, Pinklon, Tate) for instance.

It's funny that ppl bring up Byrd and Ruiz, who became frankly rubbish "world champions". There are more top fighters that Cazlaghe didn't fight.

Anyway this is going on forever. I was high on Joe after Lacy, then my enthusiasm fell off with that amateurish win over Bika where he showed off, got marked up, fell over a couple of times. Manfredo bout was shameless crap, though Joe did look embarassed afterward. Brilliant v Kessler, proves himself a worthy p4per, future HOF'er. Then...

Frankly, words cannot describe the Hopkins fight. It made me question everyhting all over again. Never seen owt like it. Lewis commentated on the US broadcast and said something like "he's not even throwing punches; he's just slapping."

Warren criticised Joe for taking the RJJ fight. Said he would have put him in with Pavlik (aggressive), not Jones (counter puncher). Joe doesn't like boxers, said FW. I think we can surmise from that, that Joe was kept away from anyone of cute counter punching ability. He simply didn't have the framework of skills to deal with Hopkins, and was reduced to literally stumbling after Hopkins and cuffing, a desperate game of "tag".

[DaveyH]

Hypothetical question, if Lewis' career had happened, say, ten years later, who would he have on his record?
He'd still be competing now I expect, having beaten the likes of the Klitschkos, Ruiz, Sam Peter, Valuev, Igrabimov, erm... Skelton, Fraudley, Danny Williams, erm... Eddie Chambers? His next fight would probably be against David Haye and if he won, well he'd have beaten a blown up cruiser with a glass chin wouldn't he?

Lennox is a legend, and I admire the man greatly. But he fought at a time when there many credible opponents out there for him. he beat all of them, but imagine if the highlight of his career was beating all of the above? Would that have made him an over hyped fighter or just around at a time where there was no exciting competition?
Calzaghe was in a division where the talent was slim pickings at best. Ok maybe he should have fought the mighty Ottke and Beyer, but come on would cynics like jamesmcdonnell forgive Calzaghe his "sins" and give him a shred of praise had he beaten these two "pound for pound legends?" I doubt it.

But that makes no odds to me because I accept that both fighters achieved all they could with the competition in front of them. I admire both fighters feel they both did Britain proud on the world stage.

[stujones]

I would have given Joe alot more credit for fighting Ottke in Germany for the WBA/IBF and WBO titles than fighting Lacy in Cardiff for the IBF/WBO titles (and somehow the ring title got involved with this fight, but not Ottke vs Mitchell). Even if Joe would have lost.

Joe had 20 defensive, some 10 of them didn't even deserve the honour of fighting for a world title. There was PLENTY that did. Yes, if Joe fought the likes of Catley, Theobola, Lucas, Larsen etc etc etc instead of Thornberry, McIntyre etc - yes it would have made a huge difference.

Heavyweights is slightly different, cause they cannot do much about the weight - but when there is no "name" out there. Or something means you cannot fight your natural rival - you do something about it. You move up. Although, traditionally, with the heavyweights if a fighter has cleared up a substandard devision - someone comes out of retirement to legitmise the reign a bit more (ala Holmes for Tyson etc).

[Asterix]

Hypothetical question, if Lewis' career had happened, say, ten years later, who would he have on his record?
He'd still be competing now I expect, having beaten the likes of the Klitschkos, Ruiz, Sam Peter, Valuev, Igrabimov, erm... Skelton, Fraudley, Danny Williams, erm... Eddie Chambers? His next fight would probably be against David Haye and if he won, well he'd have beaten a blown up cruiser with a glass chin wouldn't he?

Lennox is a legend, and I admire the man greatly. But he fought at a time when there many credible opponents out there for him. he beat all of them, but imagine if the highlight of his career was beating all of the above? Would that have made him an over hyped fighter or just around at a time where there was no exciting competition?
Calzaghe was in a division where the talent was slim pickings at best. Ok maybe he should have fought the mighty Ottke and Beyer, but come on would cynics like jamesmcdonnell forgive Calzaghe his "sins" and give him a shred of praise had he beaten these two "pound for pound legends?" I doubt it.

But that makes no odds to me because I accept that both fighters achieved all they could with the competition in front of them. I admire both fighters feel they both did Britain proud on the world stage.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Not fighting Byrd and Ruiz means bugger all really. There were numerous rival champs that Larry Holmes didn't fight (Dokes, Pinklon, Tate) for instance.

It's funny that ppl bring up Byrd and Ruiz, who became frankly rubbish "world champions". There are more top fighters that Cazlaghe didn't fight.

Anyway this is going on forever. I was high on Joe after Lacy, then my enthusiasm fell off with that amateurish win over Bika where he showed off, got marked up, fell over a couple of times. Manfredo bout was shameless crap, though Joe did look embarassed afterward. Brilliant v Kessler, proves himself a worthy p4per, future HOF'er. Then...

Frankly, words cannot describe the Hopkins fight. It made me question everyhting all over again. Never seen owt like it. Lewis commentated on the US broadcast and said something like "he's not even throwing punches; he's just slapping."

Warren criticised Joe for taking the RJJ fight. Said he would have put him in with Pavlik (aggressive), not Jones (counter puncher). Joe doesn't like boxers, said FW. I think we can surmise from that, that Joe was kept away from anyone of cute counter punching ability. He simply didn't have the framework of skills to deal with Hopkins, and was reduced to literally stumbling after Hopkins and cuffing, a desperate game of "tag".

I'm not saying Lennox needed Ruiz or Byrd, just that it's a criticism which if you were really harsh you could level at him.

[Autobarn]

Yeha, I'm sure someone else brought up Ruiz & Byrd. If not here, then on another thread.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think my point is that nobody can ever face everyone in their division, but Lewis, unlike Calzaghe faced pretty much everyone he could face rather than hiding behind his WBO belt and having soft defences.

[Eraserhead]

Lennox wins by a mile.

Put it this way - you could pick one of Lewis' routine title defences against, let's say David Tua, and it would still be a better win than anything on Calzaghe's record.

Calzaghe'd done brilliantly well to stay undefeated over a long period of time. But nobody's ever going to make me believe he was some great fighter. A couple of wins at an elite level (Kessler and Hopkins) does not a great fighter make, my friends.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Lennox wins by a mile.

Put it this way - you could pick one of Lewis' routine title defences against, let's say David Tua, and it would still be a better win than anything on Calzaghe's record.

Calzaghe'd done brilliantly well to stay undefeated over a long period of time. But nobody's ever going to make me believe he was some great fighter. A couple of wins at an elite level (Kessler and Hopkins) does not a great fighter make, my friends.

That's carrying the argument in extremis - Tua was not better than Kessler. Tua was not as highly regarded as Kessler, who was a genuine world champion.

[MR UNTOUCHABLE]

EASY PEASY....

Lewis by miles!

Please don't make me explain myself.... Just believe dat!

[Rocky Balboa]

TYSON has to PAY the money..wouldn't you take it?

Tyson PAID to avoid Lennox.

FACT!

Lewis covered the Holyfield-Tyson 1 on Sky Sports. When asked about a fight with Tyson, Lewis stated Tyson wants the fight, that Mike had done everything he could to make the fight & that it was Don King who was holding up negotiations.

For more infor on this read Frank Maloney's book. There, Maloney states Lewis was made offers from King in respect of a bout with Tyson, but those offers were turned down for one reason or another. I seriously doubt Tyson ducked Lewis.

I think it would have been a very entertaining fight back in 1996. Tyson was still fast, ferocious, powerful. His defense was not the same as was the case during his peak.

I think, at that time, 1996, Lewis-Tyson would have proved to be a great fight, FOTY perhaps.

[n1ebf]

I would have given Joe alot more credit for fighting Ottke in Germany for the WBA/IBF and WBO titles than fighting Lacy in Cardiff for the IBF/WBO titles (and somehow the ring title got involved with this fight, but not Ottke vs Mitchell). Even if Joe would have lost.

Joe had 20 defensive, some 10 of them didn't even deserve the honour of fighting for a world title. There was PLENTY that did. Yes, if Joe fought the likes of Catley, Theobola, Lucas, Larsen etc etc etc instead of Thornberry, McIntyre etc - yes it would have made a huge difference.

Heavyweights is slightly different, cause they cannot do much about the weight - but when there is no "name" out there. Or something means you cannot fight your natural rival - you do something about it. You move up. Although, traditionally, with the heavyweights if a fighter has cleared up a substandard devision - someone comes out of retirement to legitmise the reign a bit more (ala Holmes for Tyson etc).

Well to my knowledge Sven Ottke didn't like to come out of Germany...are you seriously saying you think Joe wouldn'thave got jobbed big style if he'd have gone to Germany?? Come on.
German boxing is embarrassing IMO, I've seen referees on Eurosport virtually help a man to his feet six times to get beaten to a pulp. I have never seen that here. Joe Calzaghe would have hammered Ottke and Beyer. I've nearly fallen asleep in some Lewis fights.

[stujones]

And I just sad had Joe gone out to Germany and lost to Ottke (jobbed or not) I would have had more respect for him than his win over Lacy. Joe is the one who wanted to go down as a great, he should have done everything in his power to get the fight - fight him anytime, anywhere. There was no problem going to germany to fight Veit.

Joe might have hammered Ottke and Beyer on the same night, at the same time - might have... instead we saw him hammering Kid Fire McIntyre and Jimenez. I remember people saying similar things prior to the Hopkins fight. Bernard has no work rate, Joe is going to win easy... oops. Its not that quite that simple, its not all about throwing millions of punches - and thats why Starie and Mitchell said it was a tough fight to call, and they should know - they faced them both.

There's been some rediculous home town decisions here also.... and lets not forget alot of American posters somehow think Mitchell was robbed against Ottke purely because it was a close split decision on the cards - that fight should have been a wide Ottke UD.

[jamesmcdonnell]

TYSON has to PAY the money..wouldn't you take it?

Tyson PAID to avoid Lennox.

FACT!

Lewis covered the Holyfield-Tyson 1 on Sky Sports. When asked about a fight with Tyson, Lewis stated Tyson wants the fight, that Mike had done everything he could to make the fight & that it was Don King who was holding up negotiations.

For more infor on this read Frank Maloney's book. There, Maloney states Lewis was made offers from King in respect of a bout with Tyson, but those offers were turned down for one reason or another. I seriously doubt Tyson ducked Lewis.

I think it would have been a very entertaining fight back in 1996. Tyson was still fast, ferocious, powerful. His defense was not the same as was the case during his peak.

I think, at that time, 1996, Lewis-Tyson would have proved to be a great fight, FOTY perhaps.

Its worth bearing in mind that Maloney probably had a bit of an axe to grind - he never forgave Lennox Lewis for dumping Maloney once he made the big time, and apparently there was stuff that would have made it into the book which Lewis' lawyers made sure didn't go in. I doubt Tyson was scared of Lewis per se, after all, he fought Lewis when he was way way past his best, and knew he wasn't going to win, and still went out there and got his butt kicked.

[Eraserhead]

Lennox wins by a mile.

Put it this way - you could pick one of Lewis' routine title defences against, let's say David Tua, and it would still be a better win than anything on Calzaghe's record.

Calzaghe'd done brilliantly well to stay undefeated over a long period of time. But nobody's ever going to make me believe he was some great fighter. A couple of wins at an elite level (Kessler and Hopkins) does not a great fighter make, my friends.

That's carrying the argument in extremis - Tua was not better than Kessler. Tua was not as highly regarded as Kessler, who was a genuine world champion.

Tua had at least knocked out men like Hasim Rahman, Oleg Maskaev and John Ruiz before he faced Lewis. I'm not sure whether Kessler could boast many better wins that those, by the time he got in with Calzaghe. Beyer, Andrade and Mundine were probably the best wins he had at the time.

Put it this way, there's not much in it. We're talking Calzaghe's absolute best win vs. one of Lennox' routine title defences.

[purple.obi]

Who's Joe Calzaghe? Sorry, I never got to see him, so I'll have to say Lennox. :??