7 years to the day since the bite of the century

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 28 Jun 2004, 09:41

Jesus time flies quicker than a piece of cartilage out of Tysons' mouth.

REAL_DEAL · Post by **REAL_DEAL** » 28 Jun 2004, 09:43

that made front and back pages, i remember the sun having a poster page on the front with tyson and following it on the back was holyfield ear on the floor.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 28 Jun 2004, 09:46

Perhaps Tyson was concerned that there might be a couple of people left on the planet who hadn't heard of him. He certainly erased all doubts with that little stunt.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jun 2004, 09:48

I like Tyson as a fighter, but he really should have been banned sine die for that incident. Let's face it, he wasn't grateful for being allowed to continue. He's continued to let us down.

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 28 Jun 2004, 09:58

watched that fight again recently and, no doubt, Tyson was on his way to the same result as the first fight and was looking for a way out.

If it had been any other fighter. One who could not put bums on seats like Tyson can, he would not have fought since. Some would argue that he hasn't

Slapsie

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jun 2004, 10:03

I agree Slapsie. Tyson came into the fight in great shape and expecting a complete reversal of what happened first time. But he failed to dent Holyfield early - then got badly cut again.
I think it was too much for him mentally and he freaked.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jun 2004, 10:08

Yep, Tyson actually believed that the previous fight was an abberation, and that second time around Holyfield would capitulate early to his pressure, yet again he found that Holyfield was neither daunted, intimidated or bothered by Tyson, and knew he was going to get his ass whupped again.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jun 2004, 10:18

Holyfield just had that mental edge over Tyson - just as Cassius Clay had that mental edge over Liston in 1964. That's why, controversially, I feel Holyfield would have beaten Tyson when they were first due to meet in December 1991.
Don't get me wrong, Tyson is one of the hardest-hitting heavyweights of all time. But Holyfield had his number.

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 28 Jun 2004, 10:23

Tyson, of all fighters I have ever seen at that level, lacks a "plan B"

His all out assaults were lethal when he had the movement and handspeed to make them so destructive and there was a point ( I would say just after he beat Carl Williams ) when he would have been a tough fight for any heavyweight in history.

But, in his losing fights ( and even in some of his less satisfactory wins - Smith, Tucker ) once things got tough, he went into his shell. I don't think he looked for a way out always (anyone who could stand up to the chopping rights he took from Lewis all night deserves respect for that alone) but I do think he was limited tactically and, once the initial attacks were nullified, he kept to the same game plan. As he gets older and slower, he just seems to fight like an older and slower version of the good Tyson whereas great champions realise the decline in speed and develop other skills. Lennox, Holmes, Ali even a combacking Foreman all used a lot more ring savvy as they got older and "old manned" a lot of people out of fights. I can't see Tyson ever doing that

Reg Gutteridge summed it up during the first Holy fight " When he was quick, he was frightening. Now he is older ( and he was 30 then? ) he is just a small heavyweight with slow hands."

Sad but true

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 28 Jun 2004, 10:35

Slapsie Maxie wrote:Reg Gutteridge summed it up during the first Holy fight " When he was quick, he was frightening. Now he is older ( and he was 30 then? ) he is just a small heavyweight with slow hands."

I'd say Tyson was still pretty quick at 30, certainly quicker than Holyfield. He was just pissed of because of the cut and the fact he couldn't knock Evander out.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jun 2004, 10:37

Slapsie Maxie wrote:Tyson, of all fighters I have ever seen at that level, lacks a "plan B"

His all out assaults were lethal when he had the movement and handspeed to make them so destructive and there was a point ( I would say just after he beat Carl Williams ) when he would have been a tough fight for any heavyweight in history.

But, in his losing fights ( and even in some of his less satisfactory wins - Smith, Tucker ) once things got tough, he went into his shell. I don't think he looked for a way out always (anyone who could stand up to the chopping rights he took from Lewis all night deserves respect for that alone) but I do think he was limited tactically and, once the initial attacks were nullified, he kept to the same game plan. As he gets older and slower, he just seems to fight like an older and slower version of the good Tyson whereas great champions realise the decline in speed and develop other skills. Lennox, Holmes, Ali even a combacking Foreman all used a lot more ring savvy as they got older and "old manned" a lot of people out of fights. I can't see Tyson ever doing that

Reg Gutteridge summed it up during the first Holy fight " When he was quick, he was frightening. Now he is older ( and he was 30 then? ) he is just a small heavyweight with slow hands."

Sad but true

That's right, he hasn't really adapted (I think the lack of a decent trainer in the years after he left Rooney didn't help, nor the four years out). He's essentially a massive puncher with incredible durability - and that's it (still a lot, of course). The speed has now waned, the footwork is poorish, the jab is virtually nonexistent nowadays, the upper body movement he also displayed in his prime has gone, too. What he's developed is the Listonesque ability to beat weaker-willed opponents before they even step in the ring with him. I like looking at Tyson's career because he has a very distinct rise, peak, fall spiral. The rise was thrilling (his fights with Bonecrusher and Tucker, one could argue, were great learning curves); the peak was phenomenal in 1988 (Holmes, Tubbs and Spinks), then the slow fall began.
The last thing they lose is their punch.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jun 2004, 10:42

bennie wrote:Holyfield just had that mental edge over Tyson - just as Cassius Clay had that mental edge over Liston in 1964. That's why, controversially, I feel Holyfield would have beaten Tyson when they were first due to meet in December 1991.
Don't get me wrong, Tyson is one of the hardest-hitting heavyweights of all time. But Holyfield had his number.

I believe that despite Holyfields mental edge, the 1991 version of Tyson would have obliterated him, Holyfield wasn't a fully fledged heavyweight back then, and Tyson was much fitter and faster. Holyfield I think would have gotten stopped somewhere around the middle rounds by a rampant Tyson who simply wouldn't give him breathing space.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jun 2004, 10:43

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
bennie wrote:Holyfield just had that mental edge over Tyson - just as Cassius Clay had that mental edge over Liston in 1964. That's why, controversially, I feel Holyfield would have beaten Tyson when they were first due to meet in December 1991.
Don't get me wrong, Tyson is one of the hardest-hitting heavyweights of all time. But Holyfield had his number.
I believe that despite Holyfields mental edge, the 1991 version of Tyson would have obliterated him, Holyfield wasn't a fully fledged heavyweight back then, and Tyson was much fitter and faster. Holyfield I think would have gotten stopped somewhere around the middle rounds by a rampant Tyson who simply wouldn't give him breathing space.

I do tend to get hammered when I make that statement, James.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jun 2004, 10:50

It's a perfectly reasonable statement, I just don't think that Holyfield's mental edge would have been enough, I think Tyson would have hit too hard and too often, and that he would simply have overwhelmed the less powerful Holyfield.

I also think Riddick Bowe, despite having lost as an amateur, would have knocked Lewis silly had they met up. Bowe was a very good big man, better on the inside, with decent handspeed, certainly a better fighter than McCall or Rahman, and at his physical prime when they were meant to meet. I think Lewis would have walked onto a punch similar to the one McCall and Rahman landed, and Bowe would have sparked him.

The later versio of Lewis, who was a bit wiser, wouldn't have fallen for it and would have beat bowe late.

adamiw · Post by **adamiw** » 28 Jun 2004, 10:58

damn 7 years! that was one of the craziest things i've ever seen.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 28 Jun 2004, 11:00

Manny Steward has always been of the opinion that Holyfield, once he'd moved to heavyweight, would have beaten Tyson, no matter when the fight had taken place.

He used to train them both at the same gym, when both were a lot younger, and Holy always got the better of Tyson in sparring. Also, when they played table tennis and pool, Holy always beat Mike there too.
Tyson just couldn't beat him at anything. Tyson used to look up to Holyfield, and Manny reckons he had a major inferiority complex when it came to Evander.

He might be right too.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jun 2004, 11:04

I watched the fight on tape the following day (without knowing the result) and Tyson's actions were beyond belief and totally unprecedented. Yes, fighters had bitten shoulders, chests and necks before. But never part of an ear off.
It was everything that boxing isn't. The sad thing is, he tried it twice more in the round. Mills Lane received plaudits for disqualifying Tyson at the end of the round, but I thought his performance was lamentable. He should have slung Tyson out immediately. Our best referees would have.

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 28 Jun 2004, 11:14

I have to hold my hand up and admit to being a major Holyfield fan.

The fight with DMQ in the 80's did it for me. 15 rnds from two top men in peak. God, I wish I had that on tape.

I think that Holy would always have had Tyson's number. The man had such superhuman confidence. Then, it was not perhaps as misplaced as it is now ( I do wish he would just pack it in and go and have some more kids )

I remember him being interviewed before the first fight with Tyson and he said " the only reason I am not wearing the belt is because it is not the 7th November" ( the fight was on the night of the 6th, I think.

I was nervous as hell for that fight as everyone thought Tyson would steamroller him after Holy's less than impressive appearance against Bobby C. But as soon as he came in the ring and the look on his face during the announcements made me 100% sure he would win.

The first round was the most crucial. Tyson did that Tyson thing. Run across the ring, throw a big left and right, return to corner, count money. except this time, Holy just hit him back. The TV shows a look on Tysons face that should have had the caption "DUH!" The fight was over at that point. Holy never had the most power at Heavy ( although anyone who remembers Alex Stewarts foot twitching for 15 secs after Holy Ko'd him will agree he coulc certainly carry a whack ) so it took a while to soften him up, but the result was in no doubt

if they ahd fought before Tyson did time, it would have been the same result. Holyfield simply was not scared of any man on the planet at that point and intimidation was Tyson' s main weapon. Take that away and game over.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jun 2004, 11:15

MightyWarrior wrote:Manny Steward has always been of the opinion that Holyfield, once he'd moved to heavyweight, would have beaten Tyson, no matter when the fight had taken place.

He used to train them both at the same gym, when both were a lot younger, and Holy always got the better of Tyson in sparring. Also, when they played table tennis and pool, Holy always beat Mike there too.
Tyson just couldn't beat him at anything. Tyson used to look up to Holyfield, and Manny reckons he had a major inferiority complex when it came to Evander.

He might be right too.

Where do you find this stuff from? Very interesting actually, and quite believable too.

I know from speaking to Frank Lotierzo over at eastside, who sat in on some of the conversations, that Tyson was in complete awe/fear of George Foreman. Apprently, when his handlers suggested that the deal was all but done, and that they had secured Foreman as an opponent, Tyson went ballistic and screamed at them...

"You mutherfuckers don't understand, he's faking everyone, he's playing his big friendly giant, but he's a mean mutherfucker, and I'm not fighting him, no fornicating way"

Tyson pulled out of the fight, and point blank refused to sign contracts to fight him.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jun 2004, 11:21

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
MightyWarrior wrote:Manny Steward has always been of the opinion that Holyfield, once he'd moved to heavyweight, would have beaten Tyson, no matter when the fight had taken place.

He used to train them both at the same gym, when both were a lot younger, and Holy always got the better of Tyson in sparring. Also, when they played table tennis and pool, Holy always beat Mike there too.
Tyson just couldn't beat him at anything. Tyson used to look up to Holyfield, and Manny reckons he had a major inferiority complex when it came to Evander.

He might be right too.
Where do you find this stuff from? Very interesting actually, and quite believable too.

I know from speaking to Frank Lotierzo over at eastside, who sat in on some of the conversations, that Tyson was in complete awe/fear of George Foreman. Apprently, when his handlers suggested that the deal was all but done, and that they had secured Foreman as an opponent, Tyson went ballistic and screamed at them...

"You mutherfuckers don't understand, he's faking everyone, he's playing his big friendly giant, but he's a mean mutherfucker, and I'm not fighting him, no fornicating way"

Tyson pulled out of the fight, and point blank refused to sign contracts to fight him.

Mighty Warrior mentioned the incisive pool thing. I seem to recall an incident at an amateur training camp around 1984 where Tyson took the pool cue off someone and started playing. The aggrieved man walked over to Holyfield, told him what had happened, and Holyfield went over, took the cue off a meekish Tyson and gave it back to the man.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 28 Jun 2004, 11:26

jamesmcdonnell wrote: I know from speaking to Frank Lotierzo over at eastside, who sat in on some of the conversations, that Tyson was in complete awe/fear of George Foreman. Apprently, when his handlers suggested that the deal was all but done, and that they had secured Foreman as an opponent, Tyson went ballistic and screamed at them...

"You mutherfuckers don't understand, he's faking everyone, he's playing his big friendly giant, but he's a mean mutherfucker, and I'm not fighting him, no fornicating way"

I can believe that too. Tyson's an intelligent guy and he's dead right about Foreman: a smiling faced killer.
The Steward story I remember from around the time of the rematch, in one of the many interviews Manny gives. It stuck with me as I hadn't realised he trained them both for awhile, and it was an interesting angle.

But saying that, I don't remember Manny picking Holy in the first fight. Only Ron Borges on the Boston Globe picked Holyfield in a poll of 50 writers.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jun 2004, 11:30

This is something I was going to say about Manny, he talks a lot of shit, he's a bit of an egotist really, and love to be right, his opinion about things miraculously changes when it suits him. He always sides with the guy he's trained with most recently, but then later will make out he was of a different opinion.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jun 2004, 11:31

jamesmcdonnell wrote:This is something I was going to say about Manny, he talks a lot of shit, he's a bit of an egotist really, and love to be right, his opinion about things miraculously changes when it suits him. He always sides with the guy he's trained with most recently, but then later will make out he was of a different opinion.

Don't we all?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jun 2004, 11:31

No...I mean yes. which is the right answer?

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jun 2004, 11:36

jamesmcdonnell wrote:No...I mean yes. which is the right answer?

You're right, Manny talks up the one paying him the most. I used to really rate him in the 80's, but then around 1996 he got the trainer's job with Oscar De La Hoya and came into it slagging off De la Hoya's previous trainer (a Mexican who trained the legendary Miguel Canto). Manny was out out of order and gave himself away in my opinion. He was getting greedy and couldn't hide the fact.