I appreciate your work of attributing correct divisions to the boxers - fine work - whoever is concerned!
I only found a small mistake:
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=007703
Al Hasan was moved from Light Middleweight to Middleweight today (or yesterday). He should stay in Light Middleweight as
- his last fights were at weights of about 155 and 157 pound
- he doesn't hold a title at Middleweight.
Best regards
Martin
Fine Work Attributing Correct Divisions - Hasan Wrong
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computerrank
- Editor
- Posts: 2492
- Joined: 04 Jan 2003, 18:59
I'm confused. Let's say a champion defending his middleweight title weighs in at 157 lbs. He's a middleweight right. Now, the challenger, who has never held a title also weighs in at 157 lbs....and has always weighed 157 lbs; he's a Lt. Middleweight, right? Would the challenger become a middleweight only if he won the title? If he didn't win, would he be considered a middleweight only for this fight, then go back to Lt. Middleweight?
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Eric the Viking
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1354
- Joined: 03 Apr 2003, 21:40
This is subjective, but I think in the case of non-title fights you have to look at the fighters' career histories. If they've campaigned (typically this is most clear for title contenders) at a well-defined weight but have one or a few fights above that weight they should only be reranked at the next-higher weight class if it's clear they're going to contend at the higher weight. Of course that will often come down to a judgment call, but if there is a 50/50-style scenario (i.e. good arguments can be made for ranking the fighter at either weight), I suggest keeping them ranked at their current weight class, to minimize fluctuations in the rankings.
Example 1: An example you're obviously personally familiar with is Julio Gonzalez, long-time light-heavyweight contender and first man to hand Michalczewski an official loss. After winning DM's WBO title he lost it to DM stablemate Zsolt Erdei. In his next (and most recent) bout following the loss, he beat Orlando Rivera in a non-title bout in which both fighters weighed a few pounds above the light-heavy limit. Since (a) it was a non-title bout, (b) both fighters had campaigned at light-heavy in the preceding few years (just look at their title bouts), and (c) they weighed much closer to the light-heavy limit than the cruiser limit, it's subjectively pretty clear that they should've remained at light-heavy.
Example 2: Trickier would be if (say) Rivera had been a longtime cruiser contender and Gonzalez had weighed in the 185-190 range (taking 200 as the current cruiser limit), i.e. roughly midway between light-heavy and cruiser. In that case it would help to know Gonzalez' intentions, i.e. was he on record as saying that it was a keep-busy fight and that he wanted to get back into the light-heavy title mix, or was he intending to campaign at cruiser and this was the first step in that direction? In the first instance you'd keep him ranked at 175, in the second you'd rerank him at cruiser. If it were not known what his intentions were, the tiebreak rule comes into effect, i.e. you keep him ranked at light-heavy. In that latter (hypoithetical) scenario you'd have two guys from different weightclasses fighting each other and on doing so at a weight higher than that of his official weightclass, but each would remain ranked in their original weightclass.
Example 3: Say that when Jones fought Ruiz he'd made clear that this was a one-shot deal at heavy for him, and he'd relinquished the WBA heavyweught title shortly afterward and either kept his light-heavy belts, reclaimed one or more of them, or announced his intention to do so. Then he would have kept his light-heavy ranking throughout.
Example 4: Mayorga was traditionally a welterweight, and in his last title bout lost to Spinks at welter. His next fight after that was scheduled to be vs. Jose Antonio Rivera for the WBA welter title but he came in over the limit, and wound up fighting a late sub (Eric Mitchell) who had fought as both a jr. middle and middleweight, but based on recent bouts should've (and is) ranked as a middleweight, with both fighters a few pounds over the jr. middleweight limit. At that point Mayorga's place is rather muddled - he could be ranked at 147, 154 or 160 - but since it was a non-title bout and it wasn't yet clear that he was intending to campaign at a higher weight than welter, the rankings-stability criterion says that he should've remained ranked at welter for the time being. But now that he's agreed to fight an unretiring Trinidad at 160, and due to the added fact that Trinidad's last 3 career fights prior to retiring were all for middleweight titles (or in the case of the Cherifi fight, vs. a longtime middleweight contnder), it's clear that he's moved to middleweight, so he should be reranked at that weight, and I see that he finally has been.
A second issue here is the one I've raised elsewhere, namely that of discounting a fighter's rankings points earned at alower weight when he gets reranked at a higher weight. In Mayorga's case, he she be ranked at 160 in a manner consistent with the fact that his only accomplishment so far at middlweight was to get a UD over the 44th-ranked Mitchell (obviously Mitchell's ranking prior to fighting Mayorga is the important one, but I don't have that handy, so I'll just use his current ranking to give a rough idea of the level.) That would place Mayorga somewhere in the top 20 at middleweight, but nowhere near the top 5 as he was at welter (and now is at middleweight, since under the current BoxRec system he takes his welter ranking directly to middleweight.)
Example 1: An example you're obviously personally familiar with is Julio Gonzalez, long-time light-heavyweight contender and first man to hand Michalczewski an official loss. After winning DM's WBO title he lost it to DM stablemate Zsolt Erdei. In his next (and most recent) bout following the loss, he beat Orlando Rivera in a non-title bout in which both fighters weighed a few pounds above the light-heavy limit. Since (a) it was a non-title bout, (b) both fighters had campaigned at light-heavy in the preceding few years (just look at their title bouts), and (c) they weighed much closer to the light-heavy limit than the cruiser limit, it's subjectively pretty clear that they should've remained at light-heavy.
Example 2: Trickier would be if (say) Rivera had been a longtime cruiser contender and Gonzalez had weighed in the 185-190 range (taking 200 as the current cruiser limit), i.e. roughly midway between light-heavy and cruiser. In that case it would help to know Gonzalez' intentions, i.e. was he on record as saying that it was a keep-busy fight and that he wanted to get back into the light-heavy title mix, or was he intending to campaign at cruiser and this was the first step in that direction? In the first instance you'd keep him ranked at 175, in the second you'd rerank him at cruiser. If it were not known what his intentions were, the tiebreak rule comes into effect, i.e. you keep him ranked at light-heavy. In that latter (hypoithetical) scenario you'd have two guys from different weightclasses fighting each other and on doing so at a weight higher than that of his official weightclass, but each would remain ranked in their original weightclass.
Example 3: Say that when Jones fought Ruiz he'd made clear that this was a one-shot deal at heavy for him, and he'd relinquished the WBA heavyweught title shortly afterward and either kept his light-heavy belts, reclaimed one or more of them, or announced his intention to do so. Then he would have kept his light-heavy ranking throughout.
Example 4: Mayorga was traditionally a welterweight, and in his last title bout lost to Spinks at welter. His next fight after that was scheduled to be vs. Jose Antonio Rivera for the WBA welter title but he came in over the limit, and wound up fighting a late sub (Eric Mitchell) who had fought as both a jr. middle and middleweight, but based on recent bouts should've (and is) ranked as a middleweight, with both fighters a few pounds over the jr. middleweight limit. At that point Mayorga's place is rather muddled - he could be ranked at 147, 154 or 160 - but since it was a non-title bout and it wasn't yet clear that he was intending to campaign at a higher weight than welter, the rankings-stability criterion says that he should've remained ranked at welter for the time being. But now that he's agreed to fight an unretiring Trinidad at 160, and due to the added fact that Trinidad's last 3 career fights prior to retiring were all for middleweight titles (or in the case of the Cherifi fight, vs. a longtime middleweight contnder), it's clear that he's moved to middleweight, so he should be reranked at that weight, and I see that he finally has been.
A second issue here is the one I've raised elsewhere, namely that of discounting a fighter's rankings points earned at alower weight when he gets reranked at a higher weight. In Mayorga's case, he she be ranked at 160 in a manner consistent with the fact that his only accomplishment so far at middlweight was to get a UD over the 44th-ranked Mitchell (obviously Mitchell's ranking prior to fighting Mayorga is the important one, but I don't have that handy, so I'll just use his current ranking to give a rough idea of the level.) That would place Mayorga somewhere in the top 20 at middleweight, but nowhere near the top 5 as he was at welter (and now is at middleweight, since under the current BoxRec system he takes his welter ranking directly to middleweight.)
A few pounds over the light heavyweight limit is....what officially. I presume from the response that I'm seeing is that everyone is looking at the rankings and not the records. I'm sorry but a 180 lb fight has never been in the Lt. Heavyweight division. Henry Armstong appeared at the top of 3 weight classes simultaneously as champion. Ranking and division should be 2 separate things. The solution is right before our eyes. In division record the weight class according to his official weight in his last fight even to the 1/4 lbs and in world ranking, his ranking number @ ---------whatever weight class you think he might want to fight in. This will satisfy the accuracy of the records, stop people from guessing up or down just where the fighter might want to be rated, and they can get a ranking that does not interfere or conflict with the facts. Championships define the limits of the weight classes for everyone. There are no other rules.
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computerrank
- Editor
- Posts: 2492
- Joined: 04 Jan 2003, 18:59
Eric,
look at the discussion at Editor's Forum and JohnShep's suggestion - which I support strongly - to rank all boxers in special weight ranges:
- lower than midth of next division championship weight range
- higher or equal than midth of ranked divison championship weight range
e.g. rank a boxer in Middleweight if his last weight was less than 164 and more or equal than 157.
Optional side rule - a boxers stays in or moves to the division, where he holds a title.
Your examples:
Example 1: An example you're obviously personally familiar with is Julio Gonzalez, long-time light-heavyweight contender and first man to hand Michalczewski an official loss. After winning DM's WBO title he lost it to DM stablemate Zsolt Erdei. In his next (and most recent) bout following the loss, he beat Orlando Rivera in a non-title bout in which both fighters weighed a few pounds above the light-heavy limit. Since (a) it was a non-title bout, (b) both fighters had campaigned at light-heavy in the preceding few years (just look at their title bouts), and (c) they weighed much closer to the light-heavy limit than the cruiser limit, it's subjectively pretty clear that they should've remained at light-heavy.
Remark: Gonzales would stay at Light Heavyweight - last weight lower than 187.5
Example 2: Trickier would be if (say) Rivera had been a longtime cruiser contender and Gonzalez had weighed in the 185-190 range (taking 200 as the current cruiser limit), i.e. roughly midway between light-heavy and cruiser. In that case it would help to know Gonzalez' intentions, i.e. was he on record as saying that it was a keep-busy fight and that he wanted to get back into the light-heavy title mix, or was he intending to campaign at cruiser and this was the first step in that direction? In the first instance you'd keep him ranked at 175, in the second you'd rerank him at cruiser. If it were not known what his intentions were, the tiebreak rule comes into effect, i.e. you keep him ranked at light-heavy. In that latter (hypoithetical) scenario you'd have two guys from different weightclasses fighting each other and on doing so at a weight higher than that of his official weightclass, but each would remain ranked in their original weightclass.
Remark: Gonzales would be ranked ion Cruiserweight, when his weight would have been 187.5 or higher.
Example 3: Say that when Jones fought Ruiz he'd made clear that this was a one-shot deal at heavy for him, and he'd relinquished the WBA heavyweught title shortly afterward and either kept his light-heavy belts, reclaimed one or more of them, or announced his intention to do so. Then he would have kept his light-heavy ranking throughout.
Remark:
a) Jones would have been ranked at Light Heavyweight, if he had kept a Light Heavyweight title after relinguishing his Heavyweight title.
b) Jones would be have been ranked as Cruiser (!), if had relinguished his Heavyweight title and not kept a Light Heavyweight title - depending on his last weight of 193(!) - until his next fight at Light Heavyweight at a weight of 175.
Example 4: Mayorga was traditionally a welterweight, and in his last title bout lost to Spinks at welter. His next fight after that was scheduled to be vs. Jose Antonio Rivera for the WBA welter title but he came in over the limit, and wound up fighting a late sub (Eric Mitchell) who had fought as both a jr. middle and middleweight, but based on recent bouts should've (and is) ranked as a middleweight, with both fighters a few pounds over the jr. middleweight limit. At that point Mayorga's place is rather muddled - he could be ranked at 147, 154 or 160 - but since it was a non-title bout and it wasn't yet clear that he was intending to campaign at a higher weight than welter, the rankings-stability criterion says that he should've remained ranked at welter for the time being. But now that he's agreed to fight an unretiring Trinidad at 160, and due to the added fact that Trinidad's last 3 career fights prior to retiring were all for middleweight titles (or in the case of the Cherifi fight, vs. a longtime middleweight contnder), it's clear that he's moved to middleweight, so he should be reranked at that weight, and I see that he finally has been.
Remark: Mayorga would be ranked at Light Middleweight - depending on his weight of 155. Lower limit for ranking in Middleweight would be 157.
look at the discussion at Editor's Forum and JohnShep's suggestion - which I support strongly - to rank all boxers in special weight ranges:
- lower than midth of next division championship weight range
- higher or equal than midth of ranked divison championship weight range
e.g. rank a boxer in Middleweight if his last weight was less than 164 and more or equal than 157.
Optional side rule - a boxers stays in or moves to the division, where he holds a title.
Your examples:
Example 1: An example you're obviously personally familiar with is Julio Gonzalez, long-time light-heavyweight contender and first man to hand Michalczewski an official loss. After winning DM's WBO title he lost it to DM stablemate Zsolt Erdei. In his next (and most recent) bout following the loss, he beat Orlando Rivera in a non-title bout in which both fighters weighed a few pounds above the light-heavy limit. Since (a) it was a non-title bout, (b) both fighters had campaigned at light-heavy in the preceding few years (just look at their title bouts), and (c) they weighed much closer to the light-heavy limit than the cruiser limit, it's subjectively pretty clear that they should've remained at light-heavy.
Remark: Gonzales would stay at Light Heavyweight - last weight lower than 187.5
Example 2: Trickier would be if (say) Rivera had been a longtime cruiser contender and Gonzalez had weighed in the 185-190 range (taking 200 as the current cruiser limit), i.e. roughly midway between light-heavy and cruiser. In that case it would help to know Gonzalez' intentions, i.e. was he on record as saying that it was a keep-busy fight and that he wanted to get back into the light-heavy title mix, or was he intending to campaign at cruiser and this was the first step in that direction? In the first instance you'd keep him ranked at 175, in the second you'd rerank him at cruiser. If it were not known what his intentions were, the tiebreak rule comes into effect, i.e. you keep him ranked at light-heavy. In that latter (hypoithetical) scenario you'd have two guys from different weightclasses fighting each other and on doing so at a weight higher than that of his official weightclass, but each would remain ranked in their original weightclass.
Remark: Gonzales would be ranked ion Cruiserweight, when his weight would have been 187.5 or higher.
Example 3: Say that when Jones fought Ruiz he'd made clear that this was a one-shot deal at heavy for him, and he'd relinquished the WBA heavyweught title shortly afterward and either kept his light-heavy belts, reclaimed one or more of them, or announced his intention to do so. Then he would have kept his light-heavy ranking throughout.
Remark:
a) Jones would have been ranked at Light Heavyweight, if he had kept a Light Heavyweight title after relinguishing his Heavyweight title.
b) Jones would be have been ranked as Cruiser (!), if had relinguished his Heavyweight title and not kept a Light Heavyweight title - depending on his last weight of 193(!) - until his next fight at Light Heavyweight at a weight of 175.
Example 4: Mayorga was traditionally a welterweight, and in his last title bout lost to Spinks at welter. His next fight after that was scheduled to be vs. Jose Antonio Rivera for the WBA welter title but he came in over the limit, and wound up fighting a late sub (Eric Mitchell) who had fought as both a jr. middle and middleweight, but based on recent bouts should've (and is) ranked as a middleweight, with both fighters a few pounds over the jr. middleweight limit. At that point Mayorga's place is rather muddled - he could be ranked at 147, 154 or 160 - but since it was a non-title bout and it wasn't yet clear that he was intending to campaign at a higher weight than welter, the rankings-stability criterion says that he should've remained ranked at welter for the time being. But now that he's agreed to fight an unretiring Trinidad at 160, and due to the added fact that Trinidad's last 3 career fights prior to retiring were all for middleweight titles (or in the case of the Cherifi fight, vs. a longtime middleweight contnder), it's clear that he's moved to middleweight, so he should be reranked at that weight, and I see that he finally has been.
Remark: Mayorga would be ranked at Light Middleweight - depending on his weight of 155. Lower limit for ranking in Middleweight would be 157.
You guys make my case for me when you use words like "special weight classes," or "new classifications," "or let's call him the lower weight class if he's only a few pounds into the next weight class." I say he is, and you say he is but...or if, or I think he wants to be. You acknowledge that I'm right. Yes, I too can predict that a fighter weighing 180 lbs wants to be a Lt. Heavy, but...even within the range of the Cruiserweight division your ranking him as a Lt. Heavyweight is a never more than a guess (unless you can tell me want every fighter in the world intends to do) and you want that guess to take precedence over the official weight. When I enter a result I am reporting the fight accurately. I am reporting him in the division in which he fought. Now let me ask you are we ranking or reporting? Both? Now look at boxing today. If you want to rank a 133 lb fighter as a Jr. Lightweight, fine, rank him as one, but don't report his fight as one when you have facts to the contrary. What happens when a fighter who fought his last fight at 180, and you "ranked" as a Lt. Heavyweight decides to retire. No longer will his record be applicable to "rankings." Will someone go back and change his weight class at some later time for the purposes of accuracy, so that this record is consistent with the thousands of old records that you didn't have the opportunity to "rank." My point here is that the only rule that will be consistent from the beginning of boxing to the present day is report the data and rank separately. Any "new" rule you make you will contradict yourselves on as this process does with the old fights. Answer this question for me. A Welterweight champion loses a non-title fight above his weight class. The result of the fight comes in but without the weights. I report it as a Jr. Middleweight fight, people will automatically know that it wasn't for his title but may have been for a ranking in the next division. You report it as a Welterweight fight and people presume that he surrendered his title. Yes, that is a rule. So, given these circumstance do we agree that it is a Jr. Middleweight fight. So what do we call his opponent? Do we use an * for this fight. Ranking and reporting are two separate things and if we treat them as such we don't need "special rules."
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computerrank
- Editor
- Posts: 2492
- Joined: 04 Jan 2003, 18:59
Medic,medic wrote:You guys make my case for me when you use words like "special weight classes," or "new classifications," "or let's call him the lower weight class if he's only a few pounds into the next weight class." I say he is, and you say he is but...or if, or I think he wants to be. You acknowledge that I'm right. Yes, I too can predict that a fighter weighing 180 lbs wants to be a Lt. Heavy, but...even within the range of the Cruiserweight division your ranking him as a Lt. Heavyweight is a never more than a guess (unless you can tell me want every fighter in the world intends to do) and you want that guess to take precedence over the official weight. When I enter a result I am reporting the fight accurately. I am reporting him in the division in which he fought. Now let me ask you are we ranking or reporting? Both? Now look at boxing today. If you want to rank a 133 lb fighter as a Jr. Lightweight, fine, rank him as one, but don't report his fight as one when you have facts to the contrary. What happens when a fighter who fought his last fight at 180, and you "ranked" as a Lt. Heavyweight decides to retire. No longer will his record be applicable to "rankings." Will someone go back and change his weight class at some later time for the purposes of accuracy, so that this record is consistent with the thousands of old records that you didn't have the opportunity to "rank." My point here is that the only rule that will be consistent from the beginning of boxing to the present day is report the data and rank separately. Any "new" rule you make you will contradict yourselves on as this process does with the old fights. Answer this question for me. A Welterweight champion loses a non-title fight above his weight class. The result of the fight comes in but without the weights. I report it as a Jr. Middleweight fight, people will automatically know that it wasn't for his title but may have been for a ranking in the next division. You report it as a Welterweight fight and people presume that he surrendered his title. Yes, that is a rule. So, given these circumstance do we agree that it is a Jr. Middleweight fight. So what do we call his opponent? Do we use an * for this fight. Ranking and reporting are two separate things and if we treat them as such we don't need "special rules."
to clarify possible irritations:
1) You are perfectly right - current reflections about attributing best divison for rankings boxers doesn't and should not have any impact to reporting the fights in the correct and official weight ranges of championship divisions.
2) But, we really need a common and binding rule, in what division boxers should be best ranked - as a lot of boxers often box at weights higher than their most competitive weight (where they are used to be only for their title bouts or qualifications involved)
3) You can observe indeed that most boxers box their title bouts and qualifications at the upper limit of their supposed correct division
4) So, why not define as a common and binding rule (for ranking divison limits, not for reporting in the records) such as:
a) the upper weight limit for ranking a boxer in a certain divison reaches to the midth (you also could propose 2 thirds) of next weight divison.
b) the lower limit reaches to the midth (or again you could propose 2 thirds) of actual attributed weight divison.
5) This allows you reporting the records according to offical weight ranges - and finds an applicable common and bindung rule for boxrec to attribute a correct weight and widely accepted division to the boxers, depending upon last fight weight - a rule which additionaly could be applicated by computer.
Best regards
Martin
Boxing is almost 300 years old going back to James Figg in 1719. When I look at the old Ring Record Books dating from 1943 to 1987 all the records name the weight class in which he fought. I don't know that even one of their records were reported in favor of a "ranking" over a fact. What does World Champion mean? It means that a fighter is the best in the world over all other fighters at a certain weight. The championships define the weight classes and that's all that they do. There are not now and have never been separate rules. When I see a fight report where no weights are given but reported as a Lightweight fight, I presume their weights to be between 130 1/2 to 135. What do you report when you have the same information? Do you also presume him to be between 130 1/2 to 135 but call him a Jr. Lightweight or do you presume that he weighed 130. Someone else sees your report and presumes him to be a Featherweight. We report a large number of fights where no weights are given and because of this "ranking" there is a question mark on every one because I have no way of knowing if the weight class stated is a ranked class or the one where they actually fought. When I call a 132 lb fight (title or non-title) a Lightweight fight. I am correct. No if, ans or buts. When you call the same fighter a Jr. Lightweight you are incorrect. We can't both be right and I have the official data on my side. Now, should you decide that the same fighters should be ranked as a Jr. Lightweights, I have no argument against that. Now, on the form where it says Division put in the proper weight class for the official weight. The next box down says ranking and if we utilize that for ranking instead of division we will both be right, we will both be accurate and I presume happy 