The Weight Draining Generation

[Asterix]

Please excuse the novice questions.

When did boxers start weigh draining in order to gain an advantage?
Would a boxer from the early-ish 1900s, say Benny Leonard, have drained any weight before the weigh in?

I'm just curious because you guys compare the Lightweights from all decades, but if Benny Leonard entered the ring weighing 135 lbs then he is not a Lightweight by today's standards so should really be compared to the Featherweights or Super Featherweights of today, for accuracy.

[jimglen]

"but if Benny Leonard entered the ring weighing 135 lbs then he is not a Lightweight by today's standards so should really be compared to the Featherweights or Super Featherweights of today, for accuracy."

or todays Lightweights would be yesterdays welterweights... more accurately!

[Asterix]

"but if Benny Leonard entered the ring weighing 135 lbs then he is not a Lightweight by today's standards so should really be compared to the Featherweights or Super Featherweights of today, for accuracy."

or todays Lightweights would be yesterdays welterweights... more accurately!

That's the same thing. I wasn't saying old Lightweights are Featherweights, just noting the comparison.

[The Great John L]

I believe it became very common when day before weigh-ins became the norm back in the 90's. Some brilliant commision board members thought it would be safer for the fighters if they weighed in the day before rather than trying to make weight the day of a fight. Of course, this has led to the situation where fighters often times hold very large weight advantages when they step through the ropes, most famously the 20 lb or so advantage that Gatti had over Gamache when they fought. Gatti trashed him and basically ended his career.

Day before weigh-ins are just one of the many problems plaguing our great sport.

[raylawpc]

For a historical comparison (and please don't ask me for sources because I'm going by memory), in the early days circa 1890-1915, many weigh-ins were conducted at ringside immediately before the fight, per the terms of the contract. A fighter who failed to make the weight lost his forfeit. I'm thinking the champion also lost his title unless the challenger failed to make the weight as well.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I believe it became very common when day before weigh-ins became the norm back in the 90's. Some brilliant commision board members thought it would be safer for the fighters if they weighed in the day before rather than trying to make weight the day of a fight. Of course, this has led to the situation where fighters often times hold very large weight advantages when they step through the ropes, most famously the 20 lb or so advantage that Gatti had over Gamache when they fought. Gatti trashed him and basically ended his career.

Day before weigh-ins are just one of the many problems plaguing our great sport.

- Anyone going by the Great John L should understand weight draining has always been around.

Only thing that changes is the nature of the contracts and regulations. Joe Gans had to boil down next to nothing to make his big superfight against Nelson circa 4th of July, Nevada. Joe Walcott the same deal with his classic series against Kid Lavigne. You think Lamotta didn't pick up 10-15lbs after weighins against Robby?

The Gatti example you cite is a classic case of fraud when the weight for Gatti was physically altered at the weighin. At any rate, with the junior weight divisions, weight mismatches are much less common now than in the old days.

[The Great John L]

- Anyone going by the Great John L should understand weight draining has always been around.

Only thing that changes is the nature of the contracts and regulations. Joe Gans had to boil down next to nothing to make his big superfight against Nelson circa 4th of July, Nevada. Joe Walcott the same deal with his classic series against Kid Lavigne. You think Lamotta didn't pick up 10-15lbs after weighins against Robby?

The Gatti example you cite is a classic case of fraud when the weight for Gatti was physically altered at the weighin. At any rate, with the junior weight divisions, weight mismatches are much less common now than in the old days.

I believe it became very common when day before weigh-ins became the norm back in the 90's.

Learn to read clown.

Damn!! I know I should never feed the troll; but that was just too easy.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I believe it became very common when day before weigh-ins became the norm back in the 90's.

Learn to read clown.

- My, my, threat posturing. Perhaps I need a restraining order while you provide the alternative translation to your claim that weight draining became very very common in the 90s.

I showed it's always been going on.

[Robinson]

Guys will cut weight and weight drain regardless if
its a day before or same day. I have had to do
both....and a day before is so much better for your
body and mindset.

Cutting weight sucks, but sometimes your in between
weigh divs with your ideal weight...and then you get
BS catch weights etc,...

[The Great John L]

Of course there have been fighters in the past who "cut weight" in order to make lower weight classes. However, it's naive to think that a guy who fought every 2-6 weeks (which was relatively common when boxing was actually a popular sport) would have "cut" the type of weight that these guys do today. There is a big difference between fighting 2-3 times a year and fighting 8-15 times a year. Do you really think that Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Gans, etc., were gaining 10-15 lbs after their weigh ins?

And yes Robinson, you are probably right. If we returned to same day weigh ins some fighters may still drop weight in the same manner that they do now and that would most likely be more dangerous.

[Robinson]

Some people drop weight really well and do it no sweat (pun intended)
where as others struggle...maybe they go to low...

you think boxing is bad you should see amateur wrestling !!!!!

I know of teenage kids that have had to drop 15lbs or so on the
day because they needed competitors for the respective divisions.
Then they go onto wrestle in a round robin tourny over two days...
Its alot more dangerous for them than for a pro athlete.

Ideally it would be nice to walk around at weight....I used to ...
but as you get older and whatever happens in ones life people
get heavier....diet, better living etc...

I know athletes that use diuretics, speed, uremide, laxatives
and so on etc to get them down in weight...from wrestlers,
kickboxers, MMAers, kickboxers...

Personally hopping in a sauna for an hour 24 hrs before hand is
alot better and safer for a fighter than on the same day.

Besides....who cares about a few lbs ? HW deal with massive
weight differences.....200lbs to 230lbs is alot more noticeable
than 147-154lbs.

[Asterix]

Thanks for the replies so far, guys. I've just had a look at a recent document I made to track fighters' fight night weights and here's the biggest difference I've got so far:

Juan Manuel Lopez (weighed in @ 122 lbs, fight night weight 129 lbs)
VS
Sergio Manuel Medina (weighed in @ 122 lbs, fight night weight 138 lbs)

So Medina was 9 lbs heavier on the night. Funnily enough, on that occasion, Medina was scared of Lopez and wanted a way out immediately.
Yuriorkis Gamboa outweighed Darling Jimenez by 8 lbs when they fought, and the bigger man won.

[Ezzard]

Comparing weights is very problematic. Weigh in changes and supplements have changed the sport.

I think Jaclem made the point that it wasn't easy to move up and down weights in the past. Fighters generally naturally outgrew divisions.

These days fighters bounce around putting on muscle mass in a few months. This would have been impossible in the past.

[jimglen]

well said Ezzard and others - men typically fought at their natuaral weight and with such busy scheduals cound'nt have competed any other way. Thats why weights divisions have to be revived, same day weigh-ins and fighters fighting 'close' to their natural weights!

I posted this sometime ago on another thread, I think this is pretty darn good and not a huge difference between weights...

We should re-calculate ALL divisions and have no more than 12 weight divisions! Fighters are fighting 2-3 divisions below their natural weight, so by getting rid of at least 5 divisions of the current 17 and expanding the weights, then fighters would be fighting closer to their own body weight and should leave us with more reputable champions!

If you have 12 divisions from 100lbs to 225lbs+ (the new HW), then that leaves you 12 divisions with approx 10.5lbs between divisions, less weight difference than the original 8 divisions, and not huge weight gaps between opponents within the respected divisions, therefore still competitive and safe.

[Senya13]

Rather than drain the weight, Benny Leonard instead declared that he'd be defending his lightweight title at 140 pounds.

[The Great John L]

Some people drop weight really well and do it no sweat (pun intended)
where as others struggle...maybe they go to low...

you think boxing is bad you should see amateur wrestling !!!!!

I know of teenage kids that have had to drop 15lbs or so on the
day because they needed competitors for the respective divisions.
Then they go onto wrestle in a round robin tourny over two days...
Its alot more dangerous for them than for a pro athlete.

Ideally it would be nice to walk around at weight....I used to ...
but as you get older and whatever happens in ones life people
get heavier....diet, better living etc...

I know athletes that use diuretics, speed, uremide, laxatives
and so on etc to get them down in weight...from wrestlers,
kickboxers, MMAers, kickboxers...

Personally hopping in a sauna for an hour 24 hrs before hand is
alot better and safer for a fighter than on the same day.

Besides....who cares about a few lbs ? HW deal with massive
weight differences.....200lbs to 230lbs is alot more noticeable
than 147-154lbs.

Mybest friend in Jr HS used to drop quite a bit of weight so that he could be on the wrestling team; and he was using diuretics and laxatives to do so almost 40 years ago. I don't recall how much weight, but he was about 5'-8" and used to wrestle at under 120. He couldn't continue to do it in HS, although I'm sure many others did.

[ushnikov]

I wonder what impact weight draining has on the stamina of modern day fighters, if we can assume that it is more prevalent today. Being dehydrated is extremly detrimental to performance in endurance events. It seems to me boxers endurance was better in the past than it is today.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I wonder what impact weight draining has on the stamina of modern day fighters, if we can assume that it is more prevalent today. Being dehydrated is extremly detrimental to performance in endurance events. It seems to me boxers endurance was better in the past than it is today.

- You may not understand that modern boxers have 30-36 hrs to rehydrate and replenish any muscle loss in making weight which accounts for the massive gains often seen when they step into the ring.

Most assuredly they are in better shape hydration wise than Foreman was for Ali since his Saddler cut off all water 24 hrs in advance of any fight. Endurance was only better in 15 rd title fights. Plenty of modern boxers could go that limit on fight night and some only train the minimum.

Just finished up Caveman Lee/Locicero bout where Lee has to lose 4lbs from the initial weighin to make 161 to Locicero's 156. No indication of what Lee did to get within 4 lbs or what he did to lose the 4 lbs, but I'm assuming laxatives, diuretics, and maybe a few pints of blood donations involved, who knows?

Both are gassed after a few active rounds, but they do stage "comebacks," brief spurts of activity, usually after the other guys spurt has passed. Fight lasts 5 rds until Locicero goes down after being weakened by a low blow to the bladder and left hook with nothing special on it. Lee is KOed in 1 rd by Hagler in a title challenge a few months later.

Depends on the era and perceptions of conditioning. JJohnson fought at low pace with much grappling. Joe Louis fought at a relaxed, steady pace, whereas Dempsey was more active than either, but not a lot of grappling. Today's heavies grapple and lean a lot trying to wear the fighter out for a KO blow.

Roy never had a problem going 12, but he was visibly gassed by the end of Ruiz because of the weight factor and Ruiz wasn't allowed to do his normal excessive grappling and leaning.

[zojo]

I believe it became very common when day before weigh-ins became the norm back in the 90's. Some brilliant commision board members thought it would be safer for the fighters if they weighed in the day before rather than trying to make weight the day of a fight. Of course, this has led to the situation where fighters often times hold very large weight advantages when they step through the ropes, most famously the 20 lb or so advantage that Gatti had over Gamache when they fought. Gatti trashed him and basically ended his career.

Day before weigh-ins are just one of the many problems plaguing our great sport.

I read a piece in Sports Illustrated last year when they were talking about the rise of the UFC. Within the article it stated how weigh-ins are becoming events unto themselves. People are lining up and crouding into event centers just to watch these guys step on the scales. I assume that to go witness a weigh-in, one must buy a ticket. If so, weigh-ins are just one more way for the event/fight/card to bring in even more money. Therefore, day before weigh-ins are here to stay because they simply bring in more money to the production....

I do believe there would be much less mismatches if you had day-of-the-fight-weigh ins. But If more money can be made by having weigh-ins before the day of the fight, it will be here to stay.

[Robinson]

In boxing for some events you will find that the weigh in or press confrences
are a much hyped event.

UFC however knows how to hype an event and get people excited.

I think alot of non fighters and fans read too much into the weight differences
gained by 24 hr weigh ins...

The water weight put back on by most fighters is just that....water weight.
It works for some and it works against others, it is just anothe element of the
game.

Every one has their own formula for cutting weight and some guys have it down
to an awesome science. Alot of guys with amateur experience have the edge
usually, and in MMA for example the wrestlers are incredible at this, or guys with
a wrestling pedigre.

Take for example Rampage Jackson, the week of the weigh in he can be as high
as 230 and drop to 205lbs. Forrest Griffin, 220ish to 205, Lidell is the same. St Pierre
is around 200lbs a day or so and cuts to 170lbs.

Boxers at an elite level have this ability to.

The real danger is when guys starch them selves in those small weight divisions and
they do not rehydrate well enough..thats when you get the in ring deaths and so on.

Same day weigh in's are dangerous and silly, it solves nothing.

Me personally I would rather ease my body down to weight over the training period,
I say that as I am no fan of sitting in a sauna with my opponent for an hr or so
chatting about stuff before we have to go make weight ;)

[jimglen]

apart from the agreed conclusion that boxers in the past could'nt have competed at weights 2 & 3 divisions lower, they still had to cut weight when not meeting at 'catchweights', which was more often than not - although this ofcouse was them still fighting at their natural weights.

I can only give you the first hand account of my grandfather when he stepped in against none other than Marcel Cerdan, he was called on to fight Cerdan and drop around 10 pounds in as many days, and that is the major difference between then and now. Fighters today have got months to get in shape and are within striking distance well in hand of the weigh-in, but yesterday their fight scheduals at an average of every 3 weeks, it just wasn't possible.

Needless to say my grandad who hadn't been anywhere near MW for well over 2 years, in fact he was fighting HW's and even for the Scottish HW title 2 years before got beat bad being dropped 6 times, he said he coud'nt remember a thing after the first knock down and given what we know now (medically & scientifically) about 'drying out' and a puncher like Cerdan he's lucky he was'nt seriously injured or worse in the affair. One thing is certain, he said after that fight "never again will I try and make MW" and of course he never did. Still he should have got his L-HW title shot against Mills, but of course thats another story.

But as far as the weight goes, cutting 'significant' weight back then was more often than not detrimental with such little time to do so!