Bert was a genuine 'middleweight' up to and including 1943(in and around 12st.), in 1944 he began competing at 'L-HW so as to fight the "big-men", he officially became a 'L-HW in 1945 and only in his last year was he fighting over 12st.7.
He was No.1 from 1939-48 and "official" title challenger to BOTH the British 'middleweight' and the British 'light-heavyweight' titles, yet never got a "title" shot!.
1938 - No.3 'mw'
1939 - No.1 "
1940 - No.1 "
1941 - No.1 "
1942 - No.1 "
1943 - ratings "frozen" (war)
1944 - ratings "frozen" (war)
1945 - No.1 'middleweight' and L-HW
1946 - No.1 L-HW
1947 - No.2 L-HW
1948 - No.1 L-HW
1949 - No.4
From 1940 - 46, Bert Gilroy was a Full classification ahead of his fellow British contenders, with only Pat O'Connor, Dave McCleave, Tommy Davies, and fellow Scotsman Jock McCusker sharing the honors a year each and then Vince Hawkins for two years. Where as All of the other contenders came and went Bert Gilroy was the only one that remaind at a constant. His ten year reign at No.1 was actually longer than the two Champions reign as Champs.
No.1 and for 10 years, yet NEVER was given his title shot, SHUT-OUT or "FROZEN-OUT" as they say in the states.
Remember Mills didn't make not-even-one "title" defense for his L-HW crown, NOT ONE!
McAvoy likewise never again defended his 'middleweight' title after he and Bert were down for the "title" before Bert's injury in 1940 and Bert was FAVORITE to beat him...
Bert Gilroy came into his own in mid-1937 and up until the end of 1946 he had only suffered 9 defeats out of 70 contests, including a six year 41 fight winning streak up to the beginning of 1943!!!
Bert Gilroy was a "first-class" boxer a fearless fighter and a "knock-out" puncher combined, the most feared fighter in Britain, Scotland's greatest "big-man" and he may well have been Britain's greatest "middleweight".
BUY THE BOOK online at http://www.britishboxing.net/books.php
Best Scottish Boxer Ever?
Don't forget that Mills was in the Army during WW2 stationed in India and this is why he didn't fight that often '41 to 46.... he didn't win the Title till '42 either. Mills beat Gilroy in 8 rounds in '44.... which also explains why Gilroy didn't get a title shot.
I dodn't think Gilroy would have beaten Mcavoy, who was a tremendous puncher, and was himself I think probably Britains best ever Middleweight after Bob Fitzsimmons.
I dodn't think Gilroy would have beaten Mcavoy, who was a tremendous puncher, and was himself I think probably Britains best ever Middleweight after Bob Fitzsimmons.
Gilroy was FAVORITE to beat McAvoy! Reported on By ALL the "top" boxing writers of the day INCLUDING Norman Hurst who "owned" McAvoy!!!
As for Freddie Mills, Gilroy was well ahead on points before the fight was stopped from a cut eye... both of these fighters were "protected" from Bert Gilroy read the book, British boxing history will have to be reconsidered...!
The REAL Question here is:
WAS BERT GILROY BRITAIN'S GREATEST MIDDLEWEIGHT?
WOULD HE HAVE BEEN BRITAINS FIRST WORLD CHAMPION AMONG THE BIG-MEN???
As for Freddie Mills, Gilroy was well ahead on points before the fight was stopped from a cut eye... both of these fighters were "protected" from Bert Gilroy read the book, British boxing history will have to be reconsidered...!
The REAL Question here is:
WAS BERT GILROY BRITAIN'S GREATEST MIDDLEWEIGHT?
WOULD HE HAVE BEEN BRITAINS FIRST WORLD CHAMPION AMONG THE BIG-MEN???
If you think either Mcavoy or Mills were protected as fighters then you either have never looked at either of their records or you know little about boxing. Mills was thrown in with Heavies such as Woodcock (who koed Gilroy in 6!), Joe Baksi....etc. Also don't turn this into a Scotland vs England thing as its nothing of the sort!... Gilroy was good but not the best ever and to say Mills and Mcavoy were protected is ridiculous!.jimglen wrote:Gilroy was FAVORITE to beat McAvoy! Reported on By ALL the "top" boxing writers of the day INCLUDING Norman Hurst who "owned" McAvoy!!!
As for Freddie Mills, Gilroy was well ahead on points before the fight was stopped from a cut eye... both of these fighters were "protected" from Bert Gilroy read the book, British boxing history will have to be reconsidered...!
The REAL Question here is:
WAS BERT GILROY BRITAIN'S GREATEST MIDDLEWEIGHT?
WOULD HE HAVE BEEN BRITAINS FIRST WORLD CHAMPION AMONG THE BIG-MEN???
explain the reason that they both held titles for years without having to defend them then., Explain why when Gilroy was the numero uno contender for years yet he never got a title shot, NOT ONE, explain when they did set it up for Bert to challenge Jock and then Gilroy was injured on army duties no less, he was deemed to have pole position on his return to fitness but was overlooked, explain why when he fought a title eliminator against Ginger Sadd won, but Sadd got the shot, keen to hear your thoughts Silkov! 
Why the rumbuctous attacks upon me?..J wrote:explain the reason that they both held titles for years without having to defend them then., Explain why when Gilroy was the numero uno contender for years yet he never got a title shot, NOT ONE, explain when they did set it up for Bert to challenge Jock and then Gilroy was injured on army duties no less, he was deemed to have pole position on his return to fitness but was overlooked, explain why when he fought a title eliminator against Ginger Sadd won, but Sadd got the shot, keen to hear your thoughts Silkov!
:x 
. is it cause i'm English!?! 8)Ginger Sadd lost an eliminator to Gilroy AFTER he had his Title shot at Mcavoy........ it's all there in the record. I'm not disputing that Gilroy was worthy of a title shot but do not belive that Mcavoy and Mills ducked him.... Mcavoy was very active fighting in America, he fought at Middleweight, Light-heavyweight and Heavyweight, he defended the titles at Light-heavy and Middleweight a number of times, Gilroy was just unlucky that he never got his chance. Ginger Sadd was well deserving of his shot when he fought Mcavoy, there were other fighters about who didn't get title shots...... it was a time full of talent and there was always a bit of luck involved in whether you would get a title shot or not.J wrote:explain the reason that they both held titles for years without having to defend them then., Explain why when Gilroy was the numero uno contender for years yet he never got a title shot, NOT ONE, explain when they did set it up for Bert to challenge Jock and then Gilroy was injured on army duties no less, he was deemed to have pole position on his return to fitness but was overlooked, explain why when he fought a title eliminator against Ginger Sadd won, but Sadd got the shot, keen to hear your thoughts Silkov!
Mcavoy fought many heavies and fought John Henry Lewis for the Lightheavy world title because the Yanks wouldn't let him fight the Middleweight champion (who Mcavoy had already koed in 1 round in a non-title fight)...... so to say Jock would duck Gilroy is unfair to the man, I've read a lot about him and he was afraid of noone. 8)
Gilroy was unlucky in that after he won the eliminator Mcavoy hardly fought again due partly to the war but also because he had the onset of the disease which would cripple him. Gilroy was unlucky, but to say he was 'ducked' by Mcavoy is just silly.J wrote:If 6 years unbeaten doesnt deserve a brit title shot i dont know what does.
Good post lads this is the kind of discussion required for Bert Gilroy and his 'like', I would like to here from more posters who have read the book...
Silkov your right McAvoy himself didn't duck Gilroy, I'm sure Mac although having his own reservations wanted nothing more than to fight Gilroy, and for the record the book doesn't claim these men ducked Gilroy, Bert himself had the greatest respect and admiration for all of his opponents especially Mac & Mills.
But make no mistake PROTECTED they were and there is a difference, the fighters are willing, but the 'money' men (promoters & handlers) knew the chance could not be RISKED. Bert Gilroy WAS SHUT-OUT!!!
With over 700 reports on this mans career believe, we have the FACTS.
I won't say much more for now, I'm enjoying the 'threads' in the meantime we would like to here from others who have read the book and we will comment again at a later date.
But Britains Greatest middleweight WILL have to be re-evaluated...
Thanks the Authors.
Silkov your right McAvoy himself didn't duck Gilroy, I'm sure Mac although having his own reservations wanted nothing more than to fight Gilroy, and for the record the book doesn't claim these men ducked Gilroy, Bert himself had the greatest respect and admiration for all of his opponents especially Mac & Mills.
But make no mistake PROTECTED they were and there is a difference, the fighters are willing, but the 'money' men (promoters & handlers) knew the chance could not be RISKED. Bert Gilroy WAS SHUT-OUT!!!
With over 700 reports on this mans career believe, we have the FACTS.
I won't say much more for now, I'm enjoying the 'threads' in the meantime we would like to here from others who have read the book and we will comment again at a later date.
But Britains Greatest middleweight WILL have to be re-evaluated...
Thanks the Authors.
Gilroys unbeaten streak started in late 37 and ended in '43.... he won the Scottish title in '39 and then an eliminator in '40..... the fact is Mcavoy hardly fought after 1940 as he was already suffering fron the illness that would leave in wheelchair bound by the late '40s...... I feel Gilroy was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.... had his winning steak stated earlier then I'm sure Mcavoy would have fought him.jimglen wrote:Good post lads this is the kind of discussion required for Bert Gilroy and his 'like', I would like to here from more posters who have read the book...
Silkov your right McAvoy himself didn't duck Gilroy, I'm sure Mac although having his own reservations wanted nothing more than to fight Gilroy, and for the record the book doesn't claim these men ducked Gilroy, Bert himself had the greatest respect and admiration for all of his opponents especially Mac & Mills.
But make no mistake PROTECTED they were and there is a difference, the fighters are willing, but the 'money' men (promoters & handlers) knew the chance could not be RISKED. Bert Gilroy WAS SHUT-OUT!!!
With over 700 reports on this mans career believe, we have the FACTS.
I won't say much more for now, I'm enjoying the 'threads' in the meantime we would like to here from others who have read the book and we will comment again at a later date.
But Britains Greatest middleweight WILL have to be re-evaluated...
Thanks the Authors.
Looking at their respective records I think Mcavoy would have beaten Gilroy at his best, he was too big a puncher and seems to have had a better chin than Gilroy who was koed a number of times.
All in all, with great respect to Gilroy I feel Mcavoy who can claim to be Britains best ever Middleweight (other than Fitzsimmons!) ....certainly he was the uncrowned world champion....... not enougth people know how good Mcavoy was!.
-
kevin
- Heavyweight
Silkov, totally agree with some points of your post. McAvoy is a legend, just finished reading a couple of books on him and now going through Boxing and Boxing News catching up on some of the fight reports, this man was a warrior, but yes Gilroy was shut out, in the glorious years of boxing in the 30's and 40's when you needed a 100 fights just have a crack at the title, why was Gilroy shut out, yes he went in with Woodcock and Mills, but the man was a middleweight who went up divisions just to look for some competition..
If only I had a time-machine and I could go back and watch McAvoy vs. Gilroy maybe late 1930's with Jim Glen by my side.. can it be done...?. What about Title Bout the computer simulation, can we attempt to rate McAvoy and Gilroy and maybe a few others of the era and 'replay' a few bout between them?
If only I had a time-machine and I could go back and watch McAvoy vs. Gilroy maybe late 1930's with Jim Glen by my side.. can it be done...?. What about Title Bout the computer simulation, can we attempt to rate McAvoy and Gilroy and maybe a few others of the era and 'replay' a few bout between them?
I agree Gilroy deserved a shot but at the same time if you look ata his record he had quite a few defeats early in his career, his winning streak didn't start till '37 and he didn't win the Scottish title till'39 I believe...then he won the eliminator in '40 but by that time both Mcavoy and Millis were more or less inactive due to the war and illness (on Mcavoys part).Kevin wrote:Silkov, totally agree with some points of your post. McAvoy is a legend, just finished reading a couple of books on him and now going through Boxing and Boxing News catching up on some of the fight reports, this man was a warrior, but yes Gilroy was shut out, in the glorious years of boxing in the 30's and 40's when you needed a 100 fights just have a crack at the title, why was Gilroy shut out, yes he went in with Woodcock and Mills, but the man was a middleweight who went up divisions just to look for some competition..
If only I had a time-machine and I could go back and watch McAvoy vs. Gilroy maybe late 1930's with Jim Glen by my side.. can it be done...?. What about Title Bout the computer simulation, can we attempt to rate McAvoy and Gilroy and maybe a few others of the era and 'replay' a few bout between them?
I just think Gilroy was unlucky more than plotted against... if you look at the careers of Mcavoy and Mills neiether was 'protected' by their managers.... Mills regularly gave tons of weight away to Heavies and was in reality a middleweight himself, at least early in his career and Mcavoy fought everyone from Middleweight to heavy, but was avoided himself by many of the worlds top Middles.
With all respect I don't see evidence for Gilroy being Britains best ever Middle.... he was koed a numer of times and I'm sure had they fought when Mcavoy was at his best he would have been too strong and punched too hard for Gilroy.
Freddie Mills was a Light-heavy cum Heavyweight he opperated at "catch" weights in and around 13st he was 5'11 to McAvoy and Gilroy's 5'9, remember fighters in those days fought at there own "natural" weight, not DOWN like today...
Freddie merely passed through middleweight early on, as Gilroy did starting at 15yrs old passed through feather and welter, leveling out at middle cum L-hw.
Gilroy also suffered a bit of inactivity during the war, they ALL did, But this never prevented the rest of them getting title shots (???)
Freddie merely passed through middleweight early on, as Gilroy did starting at 15yrs old passed through feather and welter, leveling out at middle cum L-hw.
Gilroy also suffered a bit of inactivity during the war, they ALL did, But this never prevented the rest of them getting title shots (???)
Re: Best Scottish Boxer Ever?
Kevin wrote:Bert was a genuine 'middleweight' up to and including 1943(in and around 12st.), in 1944 he began competing at 'L-HW so as to fight the "big-men", he officially became a 'L-HW in 1945 and only in his last year was he fighting over 12st.7.
He was No.1 from 1939-48 and "official" title challenger to BOTH the British 'middleweight' and the British 'light-heavyweight' titles, yet never got a "title" shot!.
1938 - No.3 'mw'
1939 - No.1 "
1940 - No.1 "
1941 - No.1 "
1942 - No.1 "
1943 - ratings "frozen" (war)
1944 - ratings "frozen" (war)
1945 - No.1 'middleweight' and L-HW
1946 - No.1 L-HW
1947 - No.2 L-HW
1948 - No.1 L-HW
1949 - No.4
From 1940 - 46, Bert Gilroy was a Full classification ahead of his fellow British contenders, with only Pat O'Connor, Dave McCleave, Tommy Davies, and fellow Scotsman Jock McCusker sharing the honors a year each and then Vince Hawkins for two years. Where as All of the other contenders came and went Bert Gilroy was the only one that remaind at a constant. His ten year reign at No.1 was actually longer than the two Champions reign as Champs.
No.1 and for 10 years, yet NEVER was given his title shot, SHUT-OUT or "FROZEN-OUT" as they say in the states.
Remember Mills didn't make not-even-one "title" defense for his L-HW crown, NOT ONE!
McAvoy likewise never again defended his 'middleweight' title after he and Bert were down for the "title" before Bert's injury in 1940 and Bert was FAVORITE to beat him...
Bert Gilroy came into his own in mid-1937 and up until the end of 1946 he had only suffered 9 defeats out of 70 contests, including a six year 41 fight winning streak up to the beginning of 1943!!!
Bert Gilroy was a "first-class" boxer a fearless fighter and a "knock-out" puncher combined, the most feared fighter in Britain, Scotland's greatest "big-man" and he may well have been Britain's greatest "middleweight".
BUY THE BOOK online at http://www.britishboxing.net/books.php
Anyone know if there exists any film of him?
Alister
-
TheRiverCityHippy
- Middleweight
- Posts: 8478
- Joined: 08 Mar 2014, 15:39
cant say i`m a expert on this subject but at first glance there`s nothing on his record that suggests he was britains greatest ever middleweight.
(i know records dont show everything)
even during his winning streak post 1937 a lot of his victims seem to have a lot of red on their last six fights stats. in fact he seems to be fighting the same names. maybe no one else would fight him? i dont know.
every time he faced a `name` he came unstuck losing to the likes of mills, woodcock, cerdan and cockell.
i noticed when he won his eliminator it was march 1940, well during the following summer britain faced a fight for survival in the battle of britain and then heavy bombing raids followed right through almost nightly to the next may of 41. it wasnt just london and the south coast who got it, places like liverpool, manchester, bristol, newcastle, swansea, glasgow, the midlands and of course coventry got it bad through that winter.
so i doubt if boxing was the main priority in the country at the time. it was probably used for morale purposes than anything else. i`m just guessing here though.
i`ll have to get the book and read all the facts before making my mind up.
(i know records dont show everything)
even during his winning streak post 1937 a lot of his victims seem to have a lot of red on their last six fights stats. in fact he seems to be fighting the same names. maybe no one else would fight him? i dont know.
every time he faced a `name` he came unstuck losing to the likes of mills, woodcock, cerdan and cockell.
i noticed when he won his eliminator it was march 1940, well during the following summer britain faced a fight for survival in the battle of britain and then heavy bombing raids followed right through almost nightly to the next may of 41. it wasnt just london and the south coast who got it, places like liverpool, manchester, bristol, newcastle, swansea, glasgow, the midlands and of course coventry got it bad through that winter.
so i doubt if boxing was the main priority in the country at the time. it was probably used for morale purposes than anything else. i`m just guessing here though.
i`ll have to get the book and read all the facts before making my mind up.
Headhunter, he didn't come unstuck everytime he faced a name he suffered 10 controversial decisions 'robbed' or 'cicumstantial' namely
Mills, Woodcock 1, Hawkins and Cerdan.
Don't confuse names that have'nt gone down in history as not being Top-liners, these men were all top performers and leading contenders, some great boxers and fighters here, and don't forget this was Boxing's hayday
these men would eat up most of the talent of the last 40 years...
Ask the question, "who" are percieved as Britain's greatest bigmen and measure Gilroy to them (McAvoy, Harvey, Woodcock, Mills, Cockell, R Turpin), their all from that period and Bert did beat or could'nt get fights with them!!!
Mills, Woodcock 1, Hawkins and Cerdan.
Don't confuse names that have'nt gone down in history as not being Top-liners, these men were all top performers and leading contenders, some great boxers and fighters here, and don't forget this was Boxing's hayday
these men would eat up most of the talent of the last 40 years...
Ask the question, "who" are percieved as Britain's greatest bigmen and measure Gilroy to them (McAvoy, Harvey, Woodcock, Mills, Cockell, R Turpin), their all from that period and Bert did beat or could'nt get fights with them!!!
Nice letter in in Boxing news on the book, good stuff also worth checking for a taste of the what to expect! 
http://www.britishboxing.net/news.php?s ... 41f1217bfe
http://www.britishboxing.net/news.php?s ... 41f1217bfe
Re:
I miss Jim and his fantasiesjimglen wrote: ↑24 Jun 2004, 05:40 Gilroy was FAVORITE to beat McAvoy! Reported on By ALL the "top" boxing writers of the day INCLUDING Norman Hurst who "owned" McAvoy!!!
As for Freddie Mills, Gilroy was well ahead on points before the fight was stopped from a cut eye... both of these fighters were "protected" from Bert Gilroy read the book, British boxing history will have to be reconsidered...!
The REAL Question here is:
WAS BERT GILROY BRITAIN'S GREATEST MIDDLEWEIGHT?
WOULD HE HAVE BEEN BRITAINS FIRST WORLD CHAMPION AMONG THE BIG-MEN???