Kid Norfolk

[Eric the Viking]

Can you please tell me right now Silkov about how tall is "The Joplin Ghost" Jeff Clarke standing in height?

I have no idea how tall was "The Joplin Ghost" Jeff Clarke standing in height, but I was looking at his BoxRecord, and that that caused me to look at records of some of the other guys he fought, and ... well, you know how it goes.

On this bio of Kid Norfolk written by Herbert G. Goldman and printed in the September 2000 issue of Boxing Digest, it says

"The following year (1915) saw Norfolk face increasingly rough opposition, as top black fighters made repeated trips to Panama in search of lucrative contests denied them in the U.S. Norfolk lost his title when outpointed by Jeff Clarke, the famous "Joplin Ghost," but regained it in a return go a year and a half later. In between he knocked out Black Gunboat Smith (later well known in Chile) and outpointed tall Bill Tate, among his other victories."

But Norfolk's BoxRecord lists no bouts for 1915. In fact there are numerous differences between the two records. Here is Norfolk's ring record according to the above URL - the record appears to be a copy of the one from the CBZ database - could one of the eds. look into this? Thanks.

Code: Select all

RING RECORD: 55 wins - 14 losses - 16 ND's - 2 draw - (89 total bouts)  *53-13-3, 14 ND's (83 total)*

unknown	1914	Jack Livingston		unknown		W 10
unknown	1914	Tommy O'Conner		unknown		W 20
unknown	1914	Young Joe Gans		unknown		Exh. 6

1915
unknown	1915	Jack  Louden		unknown		KO 3
unknown	1915	Roughhouse Ware		unknown		W 25
unknown	1915	Jack Herrick		unknown		W 20
unknown	1915	Jeff   Clark		unknown		L 20

1916
unknown	1916	Young Roughhouse	unknown		KO 2
unknown	1916	Young Gunboat Smith	unknown		KO 2
unknown	1916	Miltant Durant		unknown		KO 3
unknown	1916	Jim   Briggs		unknown		KO 4
unknown	1916	Arthur Pelky		unknown		KO 13
unknown	1916	Roughhouse Ware		unknown		W 25
unknown	1916	Bill    Tate		unknown		W 20
unknown	1916	Jeff   Clark		unknown		W 20
unknown	1916	Ambres Belsa		unknown		Draw 6
unknown	1916	Young Sam Langford	unknown		Exh. 6

1917
Jan 10	1917	Sam    McVey		Colon		ND 6
Feb 11	1917	Arthur Pelky		Panama		KO 13
Apr 30	1917	Sailor Grande		Roches.		KO 5
May 10	1917	Morris Tasco		Baltim.		KO 5
Jun 4	1917	Tom   Cowler		Roches.		ND 10
Jun 25	1917	Tom   Cowler		Roches.		ND 10
Jul 19	1917	Tom   Cowler		Buffalo		KO 8
Jul 20	1917	Wild Burt Kenny		NewYork		ND 10
Jul 30	1917	Wild Burt Kenny		Roches.		ND 10
Aug 4	1917	Gunboat Smith		Buffalo		ND 10
Aug 16	1917	Gus   Christie		Buffalo		ND 10
Aug 21	1917	Gunboat Smith		Roches.		ND 10
Sep 24	1917	George  Ashe		Roches.		ND 10
Oct 16	1917	Billy  Miske		Boston		W 12
Oct 26	1917	Johnny Espin		NewYork		KO 7
Nov 6	1917	Tom   Cowler		Provid.		ND 12
Dec 4	1917	Zulu     Kid		Mass.		W 10
Dec 17	1917	Sam Langford		Denver		KO'd by 2

1918
Mar 25	1918	Jack Thompson		Philad.		ND 6
Apr 5	1918	George Robinson		Boston		W 12
Apr 15	1918	George Christian	Philad.		KO 3
Apr 16	1918	Porky  Flynn		Boston		W 12
Apr 22	1918	Bill    Tate		Baltim.		W 10
May 14	1918	George  Ashe		Boston		KO 3
Jul 16	1918	Jim  Johnson		NewYork		Exh. 4
Jul 19	1918	Joe Jeannette		Jer.Cit		ND 8
Oct 18	1918	Joe Jeannette		W.Hobo.		ND 8
Nov 19	1918	Clay  Turner		Boston		L 12

1920
unknown	1920	Bill    Tate		unknown		W 10
unknown	1920	Jeff   Clark		unknown		W 15
unknown	1920	Billy  Miske		unknown		ND 10

1921
unknown	1921	Jamaica  Kid		unknown		W 15
unknown	1921	Clem Johnson		unknown		W 10
unknown	1921	Jamaica  Kid		unknown		W 10
Aug 29	1921	Harry   Greb		Pitts.		ND 10 (W news) Norfolk weighed 179 pounds.Greb weighed 162. The referee was Yock Henniger.
unknown	1921	Lee Anderson		unknown		KO'd by 9

1922
unknown	1922	Clay  Turner		unknown		KO 4
unknown	1922	Clay  Turner		unknown		ND 10
unknown	1922	John Lester Johnson	unknown		KO 1
unknown	1922	John Lester Johnson	unknown		W 12
unknown	1922	Pinkie Lewis		unknown		KO 2
unknown	1922	Jack  Taylor		unknown		Draw 10
unknown	1922	Pinkie Lewis		unknown		KO 5
unknown	1922	Lee Anderson		unknown		W 10
unknown	1922	George Lawson		unknown		KO 5
unknown	1922	Larry Williams		unknown		ND 8
unknown	1922	Harry  Wills		unknown		KO'd by 2
unknown	1922	George  Ward		unknown		KO 2
unknown	1922	Lee Anderson		unknown		W 10
unknown	1922	George  Ward		unknown		KO 3

1923
Jan 31	1923	Wolf  Larsen		NewYork		LF 2
Mar 27	1923	Jack  Taylor		NewYork		W 12
Mar 31	1923	Wolf  Larsen		Portla.		KO 1
Apr 24	1923	Battling McCreary	Boston		L 10
May 8	1923	Tiger Flowers		Ohio		KO 1
Jul 14	1923	Jamaica  Kid		NewYork		KO 2
Aug 23	1923	Tut  Jackson		Baltim.		KO 3
Sept	1923	Kid    Nolan		Baltim.		KO 3
Nov 20	1923	Battling Siki		NewYork		W 15

1924
Jan 9	1924	Sidney Grant		Baltim.		KO 2
Feb 8	1924	Battling McCreary	Boston		W 10
Feb 23	1924	Lee Anderson		NewYork		W 12
Apr 18	1924	Harry   Greb		Boston		WF 6  (Both men weighed exactly 172 and 3/4th) Referee was Jack Sheehan.
May 12	1924	Bob   Lawson		Buffalo		LF 10
May 28	1924	Tut  Jackson		Ohio		KO 2
Jun 6	1924	Battling Kavanaugh	Illino.		ND 6
Jul 17	1924	Joe   Lawson		Atl.Ci.		KO 6
Sep 9	1924	Battling McCreary	Boston		W 10
Dec 9	1924	Tommy Gibbons		NewYork		KO'd by 6

1925
Mar 14	1925	Bob   Lawson		NewYork		KO'd by 1
May 6	1925	Ray    Pelky		Calif.		KO 5
May 25	1925	Jack Reddick		Sask.		W 12
June 1	1925	Frankie Farmer		Portl.		W 10
Jun 17	1925	Floyd Johnson		Calif.		LF 4
Sep 21	1925	Frank  Moody		NewYork		KO'd by 4

1926
Mar 19	1926	Ted    Moore		Calif.		KO'd by 4

There are also lots of other oldtime fighters's records (and I like the fact that they have pictures) on that site - might be worth going through and looking for other missing/different results:

http://www.harrygreb.com/homepagewithframeset.html

Click on the "Other Fighters" link in the sidebar. Kovit will appreciate that many of the fighters' records come with a pull-down "tale of the tape."

[tonyevs]

Interesting to see they have his height at 5ft 8in.
It is listed anywhere from 5ft 7in up to 5ft 9in, depending where you look, I guess they have taken the average.
Very good record, I think a little over middle was his ideal weight but fought the big guys because thats where the money was, but as his record reads, the big guys were just to big for him.

[The Keed]

Well Eric, boxrec's record does note, "this record may be incomplete/inaccurate" at the bottom... that's a good enough answer for me!

[Eric the Viking]

Well Eric, boxrec's record does note, "this record may be incomplete/inaccurate" at the bottom... that's a good enough answer for me!

Nice try, Keed, but I thought the aim of BoxRec was to have as accurate a record for each fighter (especially the all-time greats) as possible.

So hop to it. ;)

[The Keed]

Well Eric, boxrec's record does note, "this record may be incomplete/inaccurate" at the bottom... that's a good enough answer for me!

Nice try, Keed, but I thought the aim of BoxRec was to have as accurate a record for each fighter (especially the all-time greats) as possible.

So hop to it. ;)

Is Norfolk's record inaccurate, or just incomplete?

[The Keed]

Nice try, Keed, but I thought the aim of BoxRec was to have as accurate a record for each fighter (especially the all-time greats) as possible.

It is... that's why it takes us so long to get records finished... we don't add anything unless we get it verified first.

Those boobs at cyberboxing just write whatever the hell they want...

[Eric the Viking]

Is Norfolk's record inaccurate, or just incomplete?

Looks like a bit of both, but precisely how much is hard to tell, because as you say, the CBZ record is likely flawed, too. Here are the differences (aside from small stuff, e.g. CBZ lists his final fight as LKO4, whereas BoxRec has it LDQ4) I can see, just for the last few years if Norfolk's career. Note that when I say a fight is "missing" from either the CBZ or BR record, I'm not implying that it should be added - just that it's not listed. Obviously you'd want confirmation that the fight took place before adding it:

1924-09-09: CBZ has just W10 vs. McCreary, BR has that *plus* ND6 vs. Kavanaugh. CBZ has a date if 1924-06-06 for the latter bout.

1924-07-17: CBZ has WKO6 vs. Lawson, BR has WKO8.

1924-02-23: CBZ has W12 vs. Anderson, BR has W10.
1923-08-23: WKO3 vs. Tut Jackson missing from BR.
1922: CBZ missing the Smaulding, Green and Flowers fights. BR lists only other fights that year as being vs. Wills, Taylor and Anderson (one fight only). CBZ lists 14 fights (but no dtaes) for 1922, BR lists just 6 fights.

1921-12-30: CBZ has only the W10 and W15 vs. Jamaica Kid, not the W8 here.

1921: CBZ missing the Jack Ward, George Ward and both Pinky Lewis bouts listed in BR. CBZ lists a W10 vs. Clem Johnson, missing from BR.

1920-09-03: W12 vs. Jamaica Kid missing from CBZ.

1920-06-22: WKO4 vs. Blackburn missing from CBZ.

1920-06-14: I suspect this is the same WKO1 vs. Johnson which CBZ has as being sometime in 1922.
1920-05-17: D12 vs. Jamaica Kid missing from CBZ.

1920-01-13: WKO4 vs. Clark missing from CBZ.
Lots of additional differences for years earlier than that. In many cases I suspect the CBZ record is wrong (because of the lack of a definite date), but esp. the fights listed in CBZ which are missing from BR should be worth looking into.

[The Keed]

Is Norfolk's record inaccurate, or just incomplete?

Looks like a bit of both, but precisely how much is hard to tell, because as you say, the CBZ record is likely flawed, too. Here are the differences (aside from small stuff, e.g. CBZ lists his final fight as LKO4, whereas BoxRec has it LDQ4) I can see, just for the last few years if Norfolk's career. Note that when I say a fight is "missing" from either the CBZ or BR record, I'm not implying that it should be added - just that it's not listed. Obviously you'd want confirmation that the fight took place before adding it:

1924-09-09: CBZ has just W10 vs. McCreary, BR has that *plus* ND6 vs. Kavanaugh. CBZ has a date if 1924-06-06 for the latter bout.

1924-07-17: CBZ has WKO6 vs. Lawson, BR has WKO8.

1924-02-23: CBZ has W12 vs. Anderson, BR has W10.
1923-08-23: WKO3 vs. Tut Jackson missing from BR.
1922: CBZ missing the Smaulding, Green and Flowers fights. BR lists only other fights that year as being vs. Wills, Taylor and Anderson (one fight only). CBZ lists 14 fights (but no dtaes) for 1922, BR lists just 6 fights.

1921-12-30: CBZ has only the W10 and W15 vs. Jamaica Kid, not the W8 here.

1921: CBZ missing the Jack Ward, George Ward and both Pinky Lewis bouts listed in BR. CBZ lists a W10 vs. Clem Johnson, missing from BR.

1920-09-03: W12 vs. Jamaica Kid missing from CBZ.

1920-06-22: WKO4 vs. Blackburn missing from CBZ.

1920-06-14: I suspect this is the same WKO1 vs. Johnson which CBZ has as being sometime in 1922.
1920-05-17: D12 vs. Jamaica Kid missing from CBZ.

1920-01-13: WKO4 vs. Clark missing from CBZ.
Lots of additional differences for years earlier than that. In many cases I suspect the CBZ record is wrong (because of the lack of a definite date), but esp. the fights listed in CBZ which are missing from BR should be worth looking into.

I would say the fights that boxrec HAS on there are accurate. If CBZ and boxrec directly contradict, I would guess boxrec is probably right.

But boxrec's record is incomplete, meaning the editors have not been able to verify enough info about other fights to add them there. CBZ seems much more willing to add fights on their list, even if they don't know the date or location.

I have found some mistakes on CBZ records before.

[robert.snell1]

I have a few newspaper pages with articles about him. if anybody wants a copy just ask.

[tonyevs]

Yes please Rob.

[enrique]

I HAVE A VIDEO OF NORFOLK AGAINST BILL TATE. HE WAS A PRETTY GOOD FIGHTER AND IS CREDITED WITH HAVING BEEN THE FIGHTER THAT BLINDED HARRY GREB.

[tonyevs]

He was a little better than `pretty good`.
Hence why he was so avoided.

[Boxscribe]

I may be mistaken, but I think the CBZ record was researched by Kevin Smith. He is one of the top guys for the early black fighters. I would suspect his record would be the more accurate. Boxre is not 100% for all fighters.

[RowanSmith]

The record above is not from the CBZ or me. CBZ has never posted a record for Norfolk. The one from the Harry Greb website was authored by the fellow who runs that site. I don't think his aim was to post a complete record, but more to give a sampling of Norfolk's career. I have never looked at the BoxRec record for the Kid. Box rec is certainly not always infallible when it comes to records and most of the fellows here and those who enter the records are also record builders for the CBZ. I also take exception to the "boobs over at the CBZ comment".
By the way, the old story of Greb being blinded by Norfolk has always interested me, because Norfolk went into his first fight with Greb with a bad eye--an eye that eventually went blind on him. He had been thumbed by Lee Andeson just prior to his match with Greb and thus he fought Greb, both times with only one good eye. In fact, I think that it was mentioned in the newspaper reports from his first fight with Greb that he entered the ring for that bout with plaster on the eye.
Norfolk was a great fighter in my opinion. His best weight was 175 but like many of his generation he fought heavier men. He beat world champs Siki, Flowers 2x, Greb 1 win 1 ND, and defeated other tough men like Billy Miske, Gunboat Smith, Jeff Clark, Joe Jeanette, Jamaica Kid, lee Anderson, etc, etc.. etc.. I think he could have beaten any of the light-heavyweight champions from 1916-1925.
RE; Norfolk's record. I have located bouts from 1910 for Norfolk---including a few battle royals that he took part in!

[wouter]

In a 1926 newspaper article Greb's manager George Engle said it was not in the Kid Norfolk fight that Greb was blinded, but that Harry was thumbed in the 1922-5-12 Al Roberts fight in Boston, after which he gradually lost the sight in the right eye.

[Eric the Viking]

My bad - I'd assumed the record was copied from the CBZ since it uses the identical format.

Also, these BoxRec vs. CBZ jibes are counterproductive - if anything the two sites should be working together, since they both have smart dedicated folks and complement each other very well.

[Boxscribe]

Sorry Kevin.

I presumed you would have posted something on Norfolk in the Black Dynamite section of the CBZ. You know the CBZ, that's the place were all those boobs hang out! The same boobs that write and publish boxing history books, are advisors on documentaries and Hollywood movies.

Man, those boobs get everywhere. :P

[tonyevs]

Ward was the heavier fighter than Greb, and Greb has to be congratulated for fighting him..and not just the once.
Many of the title holders avoided Ward like the plague.
Let us agree that Greb and Ward are great fighters who should be remembered more for what they achieved.

[klompton]

Greb was not thumbed by Al Roberts in their 1922 bout. In fact Roberts may not have touched Greb. Greb destroyed the light heavyweight champion of Staten Island easily in their bout. There is some speculation that Greb lost sight in one of his eyes as a result of a bout other than Norfolk but Roberts isnt the one most people consider an alternative. I wouldnt buy much of what George Engle was selling. He was notorious giving the worst interviews about Greb in regards to the facts. Id say about 90 percent of what I read from Engel after he and Greb split was false or simply wrong in one way or another.

[wouter]

It doesn't take much to put a thumb in one's eye. The fact that Greb destroyed Roberts doesn't mean that much. What's the source for Kid Norfolk being the one that did it?

[klompton]

Grebs closest confidants and family members stated upon Grebs death that he had been blind in one eye as a result of the Norfolk fight. they maintained this throughout their lives. The only person Ive heard of referring to Al Roberts was Engle and as I said he was about the worst source of information on Greb that you could come up with.

[KOJOE90]

Grebs closest confidants and family members stated upon Grebs death that he had been blind in one eye as a result of the Norfolk fight. they maintained this throughout their lives. The only person Ive heard of referring to Al Roberts was Engle and as I said he was about the worst source of information on Greb that you could come up with.

Isn't it claimed that Greb said about Norfolk something like "He must have had a tougher eye than I" After their hard fought bout?

[KOJOE90]