Modern Day Bare Knucklers

[mark thompson]

Gorman's claims of fights offers to fight Shaw and McLean are massively denied by both. Infact, Shaw even say's he never heard of Gorman until he met him much later in life.
Shaw, who was one of London's most feared and respected men(associate of the Krays and other big time gangsters of the time)would hardly have to make up such a story, especially when you consider he held a win over Ron Stander, a man who eclisped anything on both McLean and Gormans so called records.
Out of the three, Shaw always struck me as the real deal, whereas the other two never seemed to let the truth get in the way of a good story!
It's no surprise that Shaw boxed pro as a young man under the management of Mickey Duff, 10 fights, 10 wins and 6 by KO.
The other two didn't have the talent needed to do the same.

I heard the same Yiddo, how come there is no mention of the guy who's book was called the real guvnor ? his name escapes me at the minute .

[mark thompson]

Gorman's claims of fights offers to fight Shaw and McLean are massively denied by both. Infact, Shaw even say's he never heard of Gorman until he met him much later in life.
Shaw, who was one of London's most feared and respected men(associate of the Krays and other big time gangsters of the time)would hardly have to make up such a story, especially when you consider he held a win over Ron Stander, a man who eclisped anything on both McLean and Gormans so called records.
Out of the three, Shaw always struck me as the real deal, whereas the other two never seemed to let the truth get in the way of a good story!
It's no surprise that Shaw boxed pro as a young man under the management of Mickey Duff, 10 fights, 10 wins and 6 by KO.
The other two didn't have the talent needed to do the same.

I heard the same Yiddo, how come there is no mention of the guy who's book was called the real guvnor ? his name escapes me at the minute .

His name was Lew (wild thing) Yates, apparently Shaw was avoiding this guy for a long time, and when they eventually fought according to Yates it was all in favour of Shaw.

[Robinson]

HH

How do you envision the Savage-Cooper 'fight' going
if it had of been under Savages 'rules'

Also do you have any of film of any of these bare knuckle
fights.


Broughton

Being 'educated' and skilled in the rind does not make one a
great writer, or intellectual or vice versa.

[HomicideHenry]

It all depends imo. Considering Cooper was near the end of his career, I think he went 2-4 in his last six fights before meeting Savage. Also, I never seen any of Savage's bare knuckle bouts, so I cant tell what his style really was, but judging from the bout he did have with Cooper, he was just a run of the mill brawler. Considering most of these bare knuckle fights had no rules to speak of, it all depends how good at street fighting Cooper may have been. Who knows. I think Savage had balls for wanting to take on the former world title challenger, but his choice in opponent was poor.

Ironically enough, I do remember Savage from way back when, because I heard of some talk about a man who fought in underground brawls, who challenged both Lennox Lewis and Frank Bruno to fight him on the same night under his rules.

Cooper would probably have beaten him in bare knuckle as well, but I think the fight would have lasted longer and been more painful to either party. You just cant throw bombs with fists like you would with gloves, else you risk busting your hand...this is evident in alot of the old bare knuckle brawls, where wrestling and body punching were more common than full blast head shots.

I seem to recall Sullivan getting mad at Kilrain because Kilrain opted to wrestle Sullivan, and telling him to fight like a man. Maybe it all depends, whether Savage could have landed a solid punch behind the ear of Cooper, or right on the temple. Who knows. Cooper, imo, takes it.

Now had Savage started off with a novice or someone less dangerous as Cooper, who imo was one of the ATG spoilers in heavyweight history, he could have made himself a good pro boxer. You just never know.

[Robinson]

Do you find it interesting that out of a 42-0 record no one can seem
to find film of these fights ?

This is a record from the 80s and 90s. Is there even film of him training,
or do we just have biographies, hear say and tabloid clippings to judge
the man...

oh and his half a round against Cooper.

[HomicideHenry]

Not really. Alot of these fights are held in secret, so not to get the authorities involved. I have known of men in my own area, who hold illegal fights inside of barns or warehouses, and no one is the wiser, other than word of mouth. Just because it isnt filmed, doesnt mean it didnt take place.

I mean, look at it this way Robinson, you claim to have taken part in a few of these contests yourself, do you have the proof that you knocked out a man who had 15 wins with a single blow? And this happened, when, the 90's or in the last nine years since the new millenium?

I will research upon it, but I doubt if such a thing can ever be found, unless someone hunted down Joe Savage themselves, and ask if he could even verify his claims, outside of the cauliflower ear he has.

[Robinson]

I can prove my 12 pro MMA fghts and my other combat sport accolades.
As I have footage of these.

I also have footage of one bare knuckle bout, on VHS. I could perhaps
upload it to YT. I just dont know how to get VHS to digital on the PC.
Im sure I can learn. I never said I had a few. Just two. Nothing impressive
in it and the hype surrounding the 'events' before hand was massive in
comparison to the sad reality of the actual 'show'.

Fighting no bodies in a barn is not impressive, nor does it suggested that
one is fighting a talented mix of foe's.

Rickson Gracie 400-0.....enough said.

[HomicideHenry]

Evidentially The (London) Independant did a story on Joe Savage on September 19th, 1999.

He appeared, also, on the David Letterman Show saying he was "gunna mop up the HW div 'cuz he had never been KO'd in bare knuckle fights in Europe."

I shall look to see if this piece of film even exists any more.

[Robinson]

The tragedy is that these guys are given a soap box to boast
and people like your self feel there is credibility to these claims.

Having a reputation and an un-verifiable bare knuckle record is
nothing impressive.

[HomicideHenry]

can prove my 12 pro MMA fghts and my other combat sport accolades.
As I have footage of these.

I also have footage of one bare knuckle bout, on VHS. I could perhaps
upload it to YT. I just dont know how to get VHS to digital on the PC.
Im sure I can learn. I never said I had a few. Just two. Nothing impressive
in it and the hype surrounding the 'events' before hand was massive in
comparison to the sad reality of the actual 'show'.

Fighting no bodies in a barn is not impressive, nor does it suggested that
one is fighting a talented mix of foe's.

Rickson Gracie 400-0.....enough said

As soon as you get the VHS to DVD to burn it on your computer, let us all see.

[Robinson]

And then will I be your hero too ?:)

I am going to upload MMA fights first...they
were harder, against trained athletes and
were credible events.

But...if you like I can whack it up on YouTube
and perhaps change my name to KYMbo ;)

It is nothing to impressive...like most these
'events'.

[HomicideHenry]

The tragedy is that these guys are given a soap box to boast
and people like your self feel there is credibility to these claims.

Having a reputation and an un-verifiable bare knuckle record is
nothing impressive.

Credible is speculative. I'm not saying that ANY bare knuckle fighter can beat a boxer. I'm just saying that these are tough guys, and under their own rules, I think anyone would be hard pressed to kick their ass if they threw caution to the wind and thought they could out slug them.

The world of boxing and street fighting is two different worlds, and I've seen it happen. I've seen so-called karate experts get the shit beat out of them by bar room brawlers, and I've seen amateur and professional kick boxers get stomped in toughman contests. It happens. One man who will tell you, that despite his success in kick boxing and boxing as well, didnt matter in toughman contests is Chris Overbey. Its a funny story, actually, that despite his title belts in kick boxing that he lost early on in the Toughman contests, while his brother, who was nothing more than a crack head, actually ended up winning the whole thing.

[HomicideHenry]

Btw, havent you noticed in MMA the constant evolution of the game? When it first came about here in the US, when the rules were limited to 'no biting' that guys like Tank Abbott were among the elite? Fast forward a few years, and they took away hair pulling, fish hooks, and low blows, even guys like Royce Gracie fell off the radar and were being replaced by the Mark Coleman's and Matt Hughes's.

[HomicideHenry]

And then will I be your hero too ?:)

I am going to upload MMA fights first...they
were harder, against trained athletes and
were credible events.

But...if you like I can whack it up on YouTube
and perhaps change my name to KYMbo

It is nothing to impressive...like most these
'events'.

I'd love to see those. I'm a fan of MMA as well, and even met and talked with guys like Jody Poff and Scott Sheeley. I happened to get my boxing federal ID at one of Poff's mma shows last year. Sheeley puts on his 'Iron Tiger' challenges almost all the time, with guys of no experience and amateurs mixed together in competition. I thought of joining in on the last event, but changed my mind at the last minute, cus I wasnt sure if they would all be even match ups.

[Robinson]

Now we are talking about street fighting ??

bare knuckle or any organised fight is not a 'street fight'.

street fights are to hard to define and contain so many variables
that it is beyond distinction.

Karate ...mate....dont talk about that...it has nothing to do with
actual fighting.

Im sure we all can pull out war stories, but it proves nor solves anything..
being in fights on the street is sadly a reality many of us have encountered
but why should those experiences matter or count in a conversation like
this....as street fighting is ir relevant....

as bas Rutten said
"I could go out and pick a fight at my local bar every night for a week and
come out with a 300-0 record. But what does that prove ?"

Facing trained, in shape athlete-fighters is ALOT harder than beating
'tough guys',
martial artists'
so called 'street fighters'
'bikies'
'bouncers'
or any other hard men celebrated by the ignorant or intimidated.

[Robinson]

Well train hard mate and have fun,

yeah I have been following MMA since 1993.

And yes like boxing it has evolved and been
refined from a spectactle to an actual sport
with regulations, weight limits and the likes...

that is why a 176lb Royce Gracie never faced
of against a 240lb Mark Coleman...

[HomicideHenry]

Iono, it all depends here. Some bare knuckle encounters end up being no holds barred, and suffer interferences from crowds and the like. Ironically enough, Jody Poff, said the same thing that Bas did, when me and my brother in law went into his school. My brother in law was more into it than I was, so I never entirely joined.

[Robinson]

HH,

Here is one of the better 'bare knuckle' enoucnters I have come
across on YT. Its worth a watch mate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g06TEtVQVMU

[HomicideHenry]

Rather skiddish, ain't they? Dont think a punch was landed until nearly 35 seconds into the video, its mainly throwing a jab and someone jumping six feet back.

Btw, you getting your MMA videos up?

[Robinson]

went for awhile....nice squash courts too.

'ringworks' is my channel in YouTube mate.

I have uploaded some boxing matches...mostly
Patterson fights that werent online.

I have got some of mine..getting more though.

[HomicideHenry]

Tough and game, they were. Maybe some time I'll upload my own encounters. Am embarassed of them, though, the ones I have filmed were against guys who didnt like me and I didnt like them, but there was a size difference, and it looks like a no-contest. In truth, I hate fighting men smaller than me, too damn quick and springy, hit them and they bounce back at you like a cat.

I'll check ur videos out. I like watching MMA. Bouts small and big, and hell its of my opinion the lesser known fighters make the more interesting fights anyways.

[Robinson]

'a mariner never earned a reputation on a calm sea'.

[HomicideHenry]

Nice fight @ the Gorton bout

I will have to watch the McNeeley-Patterson fight again, havent seen it in a long time.

Btw, is your comment a sarcastic one, or an encouraging one?

[HomicideHenry]

On The Cobbles by Jimmy Stockins is another good read.

Cliff Fields was another who was a good bare knuckle fighter, who defeated McLean twice.

Btw, here's the video of Ron Stander-Roy Shaw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHRXe_A1XQM

I like Shaw, because he was a bit more honest imo, saying that even though he won over Stander, had 'The Butcher' not had injured ribs before coming into the bout, he wouldnt have won, or something to that effect.

Btw, here's a video of Charles Bronson as well, in the amateur bout I described a while back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TNTwtufYNo

[Robinson]

Nice fight @ the Gorton bout

I will have to watch the McNeeley-Patterson fight again, havent seen it in a long time.

Btw, is your comment a sarcastic one, or an encouraging one?

Encouraging mate.