I like Shaw, because he was a bit more honest imo, saying that even though he won over Stander, had 'The Butcher' not had injured ribs before coming into the bout, he wouldnt have won, or something to that effect.
Thanks for that...
how good is YouTuve.
Stander was no world champion, but he was a hard hitting solid pro.
I guess I just have a different out look on them bare knuckle fights. I was raised around boxing talk, every bit as I was raised around watching bar room brawls and street fights. I've seen gigantic huge muscle bound men get splattered by middleweight sized guys. Is a true thing, the saying about the size of a dog in a fight.
But for me, beating smaller men than myself, appears to be not as great as a 'win' over a bigger man. Dunno why people imagine this as being the case, because I'd rather fight giants than I would David's, their easier to get to and more often.
Edit- Hope you didnt miss the Charles Bronson bout:
These of course were unlicensed boxing matches opposed to bare knuckle bouts.
Come to think of it, Great Britain has got to be the unlicensed boxing capitol of the world. Last high profile unlicensed fight I can remember was when Butterbean fought Mark Potter, a former contender for the championship of Great Britain, but was unlicensed to fight any more due to eye injury.
I came across a man by the name of Paddy Monaghan, who wrote a book called 'Street Fighting Man', and is reputed to have had 114 bare knuckle fights without defeat. He retired in 1980. Evidentially he coined the term "Ali, The Peoples Champion" and launched a one man campaign protesting Ali being stripped of the title in 1967. He was also the co-author of Lenny McLean's book.
I find it incredible, that Shaw, McLean, Gorman, and Monaghan were all around at the same time, yet each claimed to have been the true bare knuckle champion of the world. Yet it was only McLean and Shaw who managed to brawl it out with eachother.
Collins2000 wrote:
Also, how can McClean and Gorman both have reigns of 20+ years when they were active around the same time?
- 20 a magic number.
Ask Larry Holmes who was able to rack up 20 straight title wins without meeting any of the other 2 beltholders save Norton who he wins a political decision over. First time he meets a real champ and that's it for Larry at the top. They do "rehash" him 4 more times though.
HomicideHenry wrote:I came across a man by the name of Paddy Monaghan, who wrote a book called 'Street Fighting Man', and is reputed to have had 114 bare knuckle fights without defeat. He retired in 1980. Evidentially he coined the term "Ali, The Peoples Champion" and launched a one man campaign protesting Ali being stripped of the title in 1967. He was also the co-author of Lenny McLean's book.
I find it incredible, that Shaw, McLean, Gorman, and Monaghan were all around at the same time, yet each claimed to have been the true bare knuckle champion of the world. Yet it was only McLean and Shaw who managed to brawl it out with eachother.
Hello.... are you forgetting Lew (wild thing) Yates ??
Collins2000 wrote:
Also, how can McClean and Gorman both have reigns of 20+ years when they were active around the same time?
- 20 a magic number.
Ask Larry Holmes who was able to rack up 20 straight title wins without meeting any of the other 2 beltholders save Norton who he wins a political decision over. First time he meets a real champ and that's it for Larry at the top. They do "rehash" him 4 more times though.
HomicideHenry wrote:I think they were more friends than anything else, as Gorman always stated Ali was one of his idols and evidentially adopted alot of Ali's style. A picture of the two men can be found here:
As you can see, I dont think either hurt eachother. I do think, however, Gorman did have it in his head that under his rules, he could have defeated Muhammad Ali at any time of his career, which I might agree with this logic, because I dont think it would have been in Ali's best interest to throw so many jabs to the head bare knuckle like he did with the gloves. The farther back in history you go, the more you hear about body punching, and Ali wasnt the best body puncher.
- Nice pic, but has anyone figured that Ali was trying to get in touch with his Irish roots after rebelling against that heritage early in his life?
Could be Ali got his fighting spirit from greatgrandpappy Clay. The clip I pulled up on Gorman shows him singing ballads, talking about his heritage and career, and laying into a heavy bag bare fisted. Looked to have some dig for an sentimental old man on his last legs.
As a side note, I bring up the sound of that tube clip everytime I click up my firefox browser even though I didn't save anything and don't even have that tube segment up. Must be getting sentimental myself as I'm starting to enjoy it, but any tech boys got an explanation for the audio?
Oh, as to Roy Shaw/Standers, please, whether injured, sick or not, Stander clearly wearing the cuffs. New born lamb has more kick than what I saw.
First of all, actually seeing Joe Savage actually fight after the admittedly fantastic self-promotion he pulled off was pretty shocking. From the first moment he started bouncing up and down like a buffoon in the corner to his jumping in the air and throwing arm punches with backwards leverage, it was apparent he had no coordination, no athletic skill, and seemingly had never been in a real fight of any kind in his life. This guy didn't have a clue how to throw a punch or hold his hands up. I would bet most of us on this board could have looked a lot better against Cooper with the same result. I think he was a master con man who for some unknown reason that we will never fathom decided to cash his chips in against a real life opponent in a non-televised outpost in British Columbia for what had to be just a few bucks. Really a bizarre clip.
It does look like Stander is "jobbing" to Roy Shaw, but the least you can say about Shaw and McLean and the others, and I'm no expert on British boxing nevertheless British bare-knucklers, is that they look like fighters and display raw skill and fighting heart. My only question is why Shaw didn't parlay a win over a still-regarded Stander into a big money match against a ranked or noted heavyweight. Seems he got enough buzz out of the fight to do more with the win, tanking by Stander or not, than he did?
Well, when I hear anyone say they are undefeated in any combat sport,imediately I wonder what exactly are they counting on there record?
And of course, who have they fought.
Streetfights mean nothing. Matches in your own dojo or practice matches mean nothing.
The only thing that counts are fights that are sanctioned in some form and are public.
Under these circumstances, you are seeing a true test of capabilities.
Ricksons 400-0 record is a good example.Fights in the dojo with training partners are most likely on that record.He also was beaten in a Sambo match by Ron Tripp.
If you count sparring from boxing along with amateur fights boxing , pro fights boxing, and every single judo randori , judo match and street fight Ive been in, I would say my record would be about....889-690.
Yeah that sounds about right. Lets go with that.
Oh, and lately, Ive been working out with some freestlyle wrestlers helping me get ready for Judo Nationals in April.
Couple nights ago I rolled with 6 different guys. The last three kicked my ass the first three Iprobably did better so now I need to modify that record to 892-693.
Hey this is fun, tonight Ive got a Judo workout , so the record will change again.
His opinion, gloves= more punches = more brain damage
What a bunch of nonsense....like he has any medical credentials on anything.
Actually I think Lenny is right on. Gloves do mean more punches, thus more fight action, and as we all know, more punches, harder punches, to the head can cause brain damage. With bare knuckles, its more superficial damage that is done, rather than internal.
I think a list should be made, of the known ring death between bare knuckle fighters and gloved ones. I recall, though bare knuckle fighting often went on for hours, there was very few deaths ever mentioned in the sport, until more modern times when rounds were made and gloves got bigger. People, I think, get the misconception that the bigger the gloves are, the less damage someone is doing to eachother. This isnt the case. The same argument can be made about head gear, as its only true purpose was to make sure someone didnt get cut before a fight, not soften blows.
Here's a short list of bare knuckle known deaths:
Simon Byrne, died after going 99 rounds with James Burke
Alexander McKay, died after fighting nearly 54 minutes against Simon Byrne whose previously mentioned
Andy Bowen, died after hitting his head hard on the canvas during a fight with Kid Lavinge
Of course, the most famous bare knuckle death was of George Stevenson who died a month following a match he had with Jack Broughton due to injuries. This of course brought on the Broughton Rules, otherwise known as The London Prize Ring rules. These rules of course, were replaced for good in 1892 when John L. Sullivan lost the title to Gentleman Jim Corbett.*
Now the list of some boxers who died in more modern times:
Benny 'Kid' Paret
Rico Velazquez
Duk Koo Kim
Pedro Alcazar
Sonny Banks
Carlos Barreto
Frankie Campbell
Randie Carver
Yo-Sam Choi
Cleveland Danny
Leavander Johnson
Charlie Mohr
Davey Moore
Brad Rone
Martin Sanchez
Ernie Schaaf
Lito Sisnorio
Luis Villalta
Sonny Boy West
The list really does go on and on. Some were amateurs, others professionals. Some can argue about Schaaf's death, since he had a brain disease to begin with before his fight with Carnera, but none the less, the risks for death and brain damage in the gloved era is immense compared to the bare knuckle era.
Statistics show, that even though in MMA the over all injuries are more than in boxing, there is less brain damage, and I argue that because of the smaller gloves, which cut down on punch rates, that is the reason why.
*Argue with me on this if you wish, but Sullivan, not Corbett, was originally recognized as the first Marquis of Queensbury champion. So, in essence, Sullivan was both the bare knuckle and gloved champion of the world, before losing to Corbett.
The fact is MMA is alot safer than boxing as far as long term and
brain injuries go.
Boxers however hit alot harder than MMAers and bare knuckle
guys....
HomicideHenry wrote:On The Cobbles by Jimmy Stockins is another good read.
Jimmy gave me a copy last week, very interesting book, not really into reading that stuff, bu could not put it down, had to read the whole book, took me 5 hours!!,
and this joe savage, i never heard of him before or after the cooper fight, I was at the tournament that he was supposed to be in, we had derek williams in it, alongside tyrell biggs, bert cooper, bonecrusher smith, dancuta, and loads more , i have the whole event on 2 vhs's, lent it to barry hearn, have to get it back before its lost,
