Professionals' amateur records

[Slythex]

One thing I keep hearing all the time from various talking heads during professional boxing telecasts are these ridiculously good amateur records: "so and so was 201-3 in the amateurs"

Just from my few years as an amateur official, this seems highly dubious to me. In Pittsburgh, we have some good boxers, and while I'm not a talent scout, I could see a few who may have the ability to be successful (to varying degrees) as a professional. But even the best guys we have don't have only 3 losses. Consider the 12 year old kid with 20 bouts. Even if he's good, he'll be like 13-7 just from the growing and learning process (and fighting the same kid 8 times because there's only one other kid who is 80 lbs in his age group...)

Every time I hear Manny Steward (who I like) or whoever else touting some great amateur career with a minimal number of losses I have to wonder. I just looked up some random internet claims of amateur careers: De La Hoya: 223-5. Joe Calzaghe: 128-2. Fernando Vargas: 100-5. I dunno, based on my experience, I'm highly skeptical of that claim. Maybe I haven't seen any world class talents or anything, but still. Even these guys were once young kids just starting out.

I looked up some of the current olympic guys: Rau'shee Warren is 41-9, which sounds more reasonable to me. Also found Miguel Cotto at 125-23 which also seems more in line with what I'd expect.

Any of you veterans out there have any thoughts on this?

[Canada]

There is no doubt that many records we see listed out there are being stretched. A fighter who was 150-2 as an amateur will garner more publicity and attention then a kid who was only 20-15. I think the biggest cause of these inflated records is that in many cases there is no way to disprove them, or it would be difficult to do so and require a lot of research, therefore fighters might turn a 20-5 record into 40-3 knowing they won't get caught. Where as if a pro says hes 30-0 someone can just look on boxrec and quickly find out the truth.

Then again we have to realize that these athletes are the best in the world and world class athletes do things that make people go "wow" so great amateur records should be expected from top professional boxers. For example Gary Russell hadn't lost a fight in the US for around five years until he was defeated by Marroquin at the Olympic trials, so I wasn't surprised to see his amateur record listed at 181-11. In short I think many of these records are baloney (Donald Curry 400-4 and Ive seen Terry Norris listed as having around 450 fights) but some of them are just the products of immensely talented individuals.

On a side note I would be shocked if Warren was only 41-9, surely a two time Olympian would have more than 50 bouts.

[JMac]

You are both right. It is easy to inflate amateur records especially when the boxers feel they are always getting robbed by the judges. I always laugh when they say some guy in the pros had an incredible amateur record and I never heard of the guy or ever saw him at a national championship.

[NYboxing]

http://forum.boxrec.com/viewtopic.php?f ... nald+curry

this thread has tons of amateur records of pro boxers. How legit.. hmmmm On a sidenote, Warren definitely had to have over 100 amateur fights and would be surprised it were closer to 200.


I just found his record in a story in the The Enquirer/Cincinnati.Com - it is 283-10.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2008 ... 2/-1/today

[boxmel]

De La Hoya: 223-5

I can verify that as Oscar boxed in my LBC and I used to keep records of the So. Calif. athletes. Rau'shee Warren has at least 200 bouts. He's been boxing since he's 10 years old.

[Dennis]

The 41-9 record came from http://www.boxing-scoop.com.

Their records only include tournaments that are posted on reliable websites. They usually do not include club shows and smaller tournaments. For Rau'shee it also only lists bouts from 2004 through his 2008 Olympic bout. It only has 2 bouts listed for all of 2005. USA Boxing lists 10 bouts for Rau'shee on their website and those are from the World Championships, the USA v. Ireland dual, the World Cup and the U.S. Championships. Rau'shee probably fought more than just those 10 bouts.

Rau'shee is from our region and I know that he had a lot of J.O. bouts. In 2003 alone, he won the National Silver Gloves, the National PAL, and the Sweden Box Cup. He also boxed in the Cadet World Championships and the J.O. International Invitational. That is all USA Boxing has on their website, but Rau'shee probably boxed in club shows and other tournaments as well.

[crusader]

De La Hoya: 223-5

I can verify that as Oscar boxed in my LBC and I used to keep records of the So. Calif. athletes. Rau'shee Warren has at least 200 bouts. He's been boxing since he's 10 years old.

Mel do you by any chance know Victor Ortiz' amateur record?

[DCAmateurBoxing]

Amateur records cannot be officially verified, but DLH and others records are legit. Depending on where you live, it's relatively easy to have tons of bouts in your career. However, after you get to a certain level of boxing it may be hard for those boxers to get local bouts and they must look for national and advancing tournaments.

There are a lot of coaches/boxers who really try to build up and protect their records. There are others that are more interested in boxing against the best competition and couldn't even tell you what their record is. I personally fall in to the latter category. It's pretty much impossible to tell what records are these days because there is no one source and when you add the fact that replacement books allow a boxer to start from scratch (they have to write in previous record in replacement book, but that info is almost never verified) - it gets really complex.

In the DC area, we have a lot of shows, but nothing like So. Cal I'm sure. So its not a big stretch to finish an amateur career with 200 or 300 bouts. I know of 11 year olds with 60 bouts, 12-13 year olds with over 100 bouts and some boxers that are on pace for ending their JO career with over 300 bouts.

Regarding Raushee, he's been boxing since he was 8 year old and definite has more bouts that 50.

IMO, a boxer's record doesn't really mean anything if he or she hasn't face national or international competition in tournament action. For the most part, when I hear of a really unbelievable record - whether that boxer has national titles under their belt is what tells me whether or not the record is reflective of their skill level.

Records are debatable but national and international titles, not so much. Unless you come to this forum, where everything is debatable.

[region 8]

do you really belive shawn porters record 216-11

[DCAmateurBoxing]

do you really belive shawn porters record 216-11

Says 250-8 and 275-12 on his website. I'm sure, somehwere in there is the real record. When books gets lost, it's hard for boxers to keep track.
http://shawnporterboxing.com/Welcome_Schedule.html

[Dennis]

do you really belive shawn porters record 216-11

What don't you believe? It is close. He actually has quite a few more wins and just a few more losses. The article on his website says that his record was 263-16 as an amateur. That is fairly accurate. He boxed very frequently and was very successful.

[boxmel]

Fernando Vargas: 100-5.

Fernando had more than 5 losses. No, I don't have Victor Ortiz's record - I first met him at the JO Nationals in Marquette when he was still living in Kansas - and I'd guess he had at least 150 bouts as an amateur.

[BoxingFan2]

You are right, I was at a boxing show in LA, where they had the "book" of vargas in a scrapbook and I saw at least 15 losses

[Unit]

Chad Dawson was Approximatley 59-13...from the same gym...LOLz even got whats left of his faded book

with like 30 something straight wins

[ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY]

UNIT get back in the gym man...havent seen you anywhere. Also, records now are combining JO and open too...Chad Dawson had about 72 fights but only about 10 or 15 of them were open class...sometimes you will see people who dont count them as kids...we had a guy here not too long ago who had about 35 JO fights whenhe was a kid...took a couple years off and joined the Golden Gloves at 18...and his coach put him NOVICE...dirty

[ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY]

Chad fought about 55 JO fights...then went open...what part of that doesnt make sense?

[clarkringone]

Chad Dawson was 58-15 as an amateur. Most of that was as a JO. Iceman is right that Chad only had about 15 open class fights. He NEVER fought a novice fight.

[boxmel]

That makes no sense. You are put into the open class after 10 fights,

Only if you are 17 years old and above.

but sometimes sooner.

You can enter an advancing tournament with 5 or more recorded bouts if you are age 17 or over or are a Senior JO (15-16 years old - since there is no "open" or "novice" in the JO division).

You can't continue to fight novices if you have more than 10 fights on your record, they just don't allow it!

Many times at local shows numeric novice and open boxers are matched up - unless the experience difference is way too much.

[ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY]

Johnny...his 50 odd fights were JO fights...Do you understand what JO means? Clarkringone was his amateur coach so he obviously knows...I was around then coaching other kids so I know too...there are kids who have way more than that before they ever hit open class...Bones Adams was 13 years old and had 112 fights already...no need to go stop off at novice for him

[ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY]

In my second JO fight ever (my first one was 24 hours prior) I fought the two time NYC JO champ William Moore in what was around his 27th fight at the time. It happens

[boxmel]

If he had only 15 'open class fights' and 0 'novice fights' then what the hell were his remaining 58 fights considered? Exhibitions? You're full of shit

As Iceman explained - the bulk of his experience was as a JO. He only had 15 bouts as a "senior" (age 17+) boxer.

Really? So they don't have junior open class?

Exactly.

So are you saying that in the US they would match a 16 yr old with 100 fights vs a 15 yr old with 3 fights?

Definitely not at a local show. However, it is possible that 15 year old JO (with a minimum of 5 scored bouts) could be matched against a 16 year old JO with 100 bouts at the JO championships - if the coach is silly enough to put his JO with 5 bouts in the advancing tournaments (district and regional). Said JO could even advance to the national championships unopposed at the district and regional level.

But are these recorded as fights? This sometimes happens just to save a show, but always listed as an Exhibition (where there is never a winner)

Yes, they are recorded bouts. Exhibitions are against the rules in the U.S.

The Americans have a very sophisticated ranking system, I find it hard to believe that amateur boxing is administered in such a way that would allow mismatches or innaccurate recordkeeping as suggested here

The ranking system has nothing to do with what happens at the local, state, or regional levels. Our boxers are only ranked on their performance at a national tournament or international event. Unfortunately, mismatches and inaccurate record keeping are fairly prevelant at the local levels and there is really no way to police them. The rules are not always followed.

[ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY]

JO means JUNIOR OLYMPIC...when u hit 17 you are open/novice...before that you are JO...Chad had fights since he was 11...by the time he was 16 he had about 50 of them..then he skipped novice and went straight to open...beating current top welterweight Delvin Rodriguez in the process at 147...

[ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY]

I will say this much...I personally witnessed an amateur with SEVEN bouts win a decision over the defending National Golden Gloves (he won the title about 5 weeks earlier) at a local show here.

[boxmel]

then he skipped novice and went straight to open...

There is no "skipping novice." Once a boxer has more than 11 bouts in his or her book, if JO - once he or she turns 17, they are automatically "open."

[ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY]

Again, though, "the book" is ultimately an honor system....obviously people have lied about losing a book so they can say their kid had 10 fights when he really had 40 when he was 13 years old..it happens more than you think maybe. I have seen that MANY times