How good is the current Heavyweight division ?

[Quixall]

How good is the current heavyweight division ?

Whenever this topic is raised, it always provokes differing opinions, some of which can be due to the age groups of the various posters. The more seasoned poster will be able to go back to the 1970's and 1980's, whilst for the younger generation, the heavyweight scene of the 1990's and onwards is more relevent.

Most people tend to split the heavyweight era's into three sections. Firstly the early 1970's to the middle 1980's, where you had fighters like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Shavers and latterly Larry Holmes, mixed in with likes of Dokes, Cooney and Tate, Then you had the second section, which was from the middle 1980's to the late 1990's and early 2000's. This section was mainly domiated by Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and to a lesser degree Bowe, mixed in with the likes of Witherspoon, Spinks, Bruno, Botha, McCall, Golota, Ruddock and Morrison. The third section would be from the early 2000's, starting with Lewis' retirement and including fighters such as Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko, Valuev, Ruiz, Maskaev, Chagaev, Peter, Povetkin, mixed in with the likes of Brewster, Rahman, Briggs and McCline.

For a lot of people, the 1970's period is the holy grail of heavyweight boxing, with fights commanding big audiences and high calibre fighters like Ali, Frazier,Foremen and Norton, fighting two or three times, as the championship belts were won and lost. Larry Holmes came in on the tail end of the 1970's super fights and has not gained any true recognition because of it, even though he was a high calibre fighter who would have graced the early to mid 1970's heavyweight scene. The mid to late 1980's was characterised and dominated by one man, Mike Tyson, who untill his shock defeat to Buster Douglas and incarceration soon afterwoods, left an indelable mark on the heavyweight scene, that still resonates to this day. But it has to be said, that some would suggest that without Tyson, that era was quite unremarkable for it's calibre of fighter. The early 1990's to early 2000's was dominated by three fighters, Holyfield, Lewis and Tyson, with Bowe adding weight to the rivalries. The triolgy between Holyfield, Lewis and Tyson, mirrored some of the great battles and glamour of the 1970's and for a lot of people, represents the last golden age of heavyweight boxing.This current period has been dominated by fighters from Eastern Europe and the old soviet bloc, most notably the Klitschko brothers, along with Valuev, Masqaev, Chagaev and ibragimov. For some, this new era represents a fresh epoc, with some exciting young fighters, where America is'nt the dominant force and because of the European influence, the heavyweight scene has more of a global appeal. Others view this current era as being not particularly high in quality and that it lacks the excitement and glamour that should be the footnote of any heavyweight scene.

So the question is.....

How good is the current heavyweight scene, when put into comparison with previous era's ??

Thanks,

Quix

[teddy007]

How good is the current heavyweight division ?

Whenever this topic is raised, it always provokes differing opinions, some of which can be due to the age groups of the various posters. The more seasoned poster will be able to go back to the 1970's and 1980's, whilst for the younger generation, the heavyweight scene of the 1990's and onwards is more relevent.

Most people tend to split the heavyweight era's into three sections. Firstly the early 1970's to the middle 1980's, where you had fighters like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Shavers and latterly Larry Holmes, mixed in with likes of Dokes, Cooney and Tate, Then you had the second section, which was from the middle 1980's to the late 1990's and early 2000's. This section was mainly domiated by Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and to a lesser degree Bowe, mixed in with the likes of Witherspoon, Spinks, Bruno, Botha, McCall, Golota, Ruddock and Morrison. The third section would be form the early 2000's, starting with Lewis' retirement and including fighters such as Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko, Valuev, Ruiz, Maskaev, Chagaev, Peter, Povetkin, mixed in with the likes of Brewster, Rahman, Briggs and McCline.

For a lot of people, the 1970's period is the holy grail of heavyweight boxing, with fights commanding big audiences and high calibre fighters like Ali, Frazier,Foremen and Norton, fighting two or three times, as the championship belts were won and lost. Larry Holmes came in on the tail end of the 1970's super fights and has not gained any true recognition because of it, even though he was a high calibre fighter who would have graced the early to mid 1970's heavyweight scene. The mid to late 1980's was characterised and dominated by one man, Mike Tyson, who untill his shock defeat to Buster Douglas and incarceration soon afterwoods, left an indelable mark on the heavyweight scene, that still resonates to this day. But it has to be said, that some would suggest that without Tyson, that era was quite unremarkable for it's calibre of fighter. The early 1990's to early 2000's was dominated by three fighters, Holyfield, Lewis and Tyson, with Bowe adding weight to the rivalries. The triolgy between Holyfield, Lewis and Tyson, mirrored some of the great battles and glamour of the 1970's and for a lot of people, represents the last golden age of heavyweight boxing.This curerent period has been dominated by fighters from Eastern Europe and the old soviet bloc, most notably the Klitschko brothers, along with Valuev, Masqaev, Chagaev and ibragimov. For some, this new era represents a fresh epoc, with some exciting young fighters, where America is'nt the dominant force and because of the European influence, the heavyweight scene has more of a global appeal. Others view this current era as being not particularly high in quality and that it lacks the excitement and glamour that should be the footnote of any heavyweight scene.

So the question is.....

How good is the current heavyweight scene, when put into comparison with previous era's ??

Thanks,

Quix

There is a case for it being the worst ever and that what i think it is.

[Old bones Ian]

One of the problems with todays heavies is they are just not exciting enough, and maybe its because the East Europeon boxers are to safety first in there boxing.

The leading heavyweight Wladimir Klitschko has a 52-3 record with 46 KO's!!!! and been stopped in all his losses, but how many exciting fights has he been in?? A handful , if that.
Same with his brother Vitali Klitschko who has only been the distance once in 36 wins, with records like that they should be exciting the crowds, but they just don't.

[n1ebf]

I'm a boxing nut I'm in my late twenties. Heavyweight fights of the current era do not excite me....at all really. Klitschko is the best, super athlete, always in shape which indicates good dedication but it's a poor indictment of the scene that he can take 3 yrs out then come back and blitz a so called top contender.
Plus, Klitschko is a giant and there's always this niggle in the back of the mind that makes you think if he wasn't so physically bigger than his opponents he wouldn't be as good. There seems to me to be no stand-out talent in this era, which makes it difficult to get excited about.
For instance, when Tyson was in his prime, you KNEW that that guy was seriously good, and not just big and heavy. The same for the previous era you mention..Frazier, Ali, Holmes, Foreman etc...

It could just be me of course...I was wearing nappies in what I saw of the seventies rather than focusing on the Heavyweight boxing scene, so therefore I haven't really seen (apart from the Rumble) any fights from that era in their entirety...mostly just highlights...is this why they look so much better? Cos it's highlights? I don't think so. I think in the 70s 80s to mid 90s, you had talented athletes that were prepared to mix it.....Klitschko is athletic, but he will happily stay behind the jab all night if there's any sort of threat. Wladimir is even more cautious.

Also I never really understood the reverberations around Mike Tyson's first big defeat. Buster Douglas was SUPREMELY game in that fight, he was fit, strong and genuinely tough, not too mentioned BIGGER - he cared fck all for Tyson's reputation. Unlike say Bruno, who crossed his chest 200 times on the way to the ring. I think the fact it sent shockwaves round the world is something to do with the LEGEND that was the young Mike Tyson - which backs up what I was saying earlier about there being really quality men at the top. Prime Tyson, a wrecking ball of a heavyweight fighter the likes of which we won't see again for a LONG LONG time.

Today's lot??.....Pedestrian by comparison.

[hitman09]

The Klitschko brothers are a cut above the rest at the moment and could have competed in any era IMO but the rest are way below even the 80s which were poor, and they are truly awful compared to the 70s. I think the Klitschko's talent shouldn't be degraded because of their size, which simply makes them more likely to be able to compete with the legends of the past.

[Quixall]

One of the problems with todays heavies is they are just not exciting enough, and maybe its because the East Europeon boxers are to safety first in there boxing.

The leading heavyweight Wladimir Klitschko has a 52-3 record with 46 KO's!!!! and been stopped in all his losses, but how many exciting fights has he been in?? A handful , if that.
Same with his brother Vitali Klitschko who has only been the distance once in 36 wins, with records like that they should be exciting the crowds, but they just don't.

I agree....

The excitement and glamour seems to have gone out of the heavyweight division and there does'nt seem to to any fights that rival those of previous era's. I think your right in saying that fighters like the klitschko's are safety first, inless they are in with someone of far less calibre, as was the case when Vitali Klitschko fought Danny Williams. They also have'nt got great PR at the minute and whilst the viewing figures in Eurpe for the fights are pretty good, the main championship fights don't generate much interest elsewhere and particularly in America. Also, having a heavyweight championship fight in Germany, does'nt compare to Caesars palace or Madison square garden.

[Quixall]

I'm a boxing nut I'm in my late twenties. Heavyweight fights of the current era do not excite me....at all really. Klitschko is the best, super athlete, always in shape which indicates good dedication but it's a poor indictment of the scene that he can take 3 yrs out then come back and blitz a so called top contender.
Plus, Klitschko is a giant and there's always this niggle in the back of the mind that makes you think if he wasn't so physically bigger than his opponents he wouldn't be as good. There seems to me to be no stand-out talent in this era, which makes it difficult to get excited about.
For instance, when Tyson was in his prime, you KNEW that that guy was seriously good, and not just big and heavy. The same for the previous era you mention..Frazier, Ali, Holmes, Foreman etc...

It could just be me of course...I was wearing nappies in what I saw of the seventies rather than focusing on the Heavyweight boxing scene, so therefore I haven't really seen (apart from the Rumble) any fights from that era in their entirety...mostly just highlights...is this why they look so much better? Cos it's highlights? I don't think so. I think in the 70s 80s to mid 90s, you had talented athletes that were prepared to mix it.....Klitschko is athletic, but he will happily stay behind the jab all night if there's any sort of threat. Wladimir is even more cautious.

Also I never really understood the reverberations around Mike Tyson's first big defeat. Buster Douglas was SUPREMELY game in that fight, he was fit, strong and genuinely tough, not too mentioned BIGGER - he cared fck all for Tyson's reputation. Unlike say Bruno, who crossed his chest 200 times on the way to the ring. I think the fact it sent shockwaves round the world is something to do with the LEGEND that was the young Mike Tyson - which backs up what I was saying earlier about there being really quality men at the top. Prime Tyson, a wrecking ball of a heavyweight fighter the likes of which we won't see again for a LONG LONG time.

Today's lot??.....Pedestrian by comparison.

I'm not keen on the current crop of heavyweights. The Klitschko's maybe safety first fighters, but they would have competed with the likes of Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe and Tyson. I feel they would have fallen short against the 1970's crop of fighters, but they dominate the current era, because threre is no one out there to challenge there supremacy, only David Haye or Povetkin could have the potential to beat either of the Klitschko brothers, but it's by no means guaranteed.

I do think that Douglas was in the right frame of mind to take on Tyson that night, but i also think that Tyson was well short of being on his game. All due credit to Douglas, because he had to get up off the canvas to beat Tyson, but Mike was'nt living correctly at the time, his training schedule was in complete dissaray and his private life was an absolute mess. With all due respect to Holyfield, i think we saw the true Buster Douglas, the night he defended his title, which was a decent to good heavyweight, who at times could raise his game to a higher level.

[Old bones Ian]

Thats why we need David Haye to win a title, give it some excitment. I can't see David being a long term title holder like Lewis , but it would at least inject some excitment into a dormant division.

[Quixall]

Thats why we need David Haye to win a title, give it some excitment. I can't see David being a long term title holder like Lewis , but it would at least inject some excitment into a dormant division.

I can only see Haye being around for another 3 to 4 years max, maybe shorter than that, but your right in saying that we need him at the healm of heavyweight boxing. Ideally, we need another Mike Tyson, but Mike was one of those fighters that come around every 30 years and in the current climate, where young guys have options, other than boxing, plus a largely defunct and under-funded American amateur system, the chances of America having a re-growth of boxing talent and finding another Tyson are very small

[Poncey]

I watch fights like Ibeabuchi v Tua and cry.

[Adamj1987]

answer = terrible
valuev holds a belt and nearly loses to 46 year old holy enuff said

[Quixall]

answer = terrible
valuev holds a belt and nearly loses to 46 year old holy enuff said

I think a lot of people think that Holyfield won !!

There was going to be an investigation into the judges scoring, but no doubt nothing came of it

I don't know whether it's Valuev's size, but i'm waiting for the day that he get's KO'd

That would be a great sight, Valuev falling between the ropes

[Quixall]

changing the subject slightly the domestic scene is looking quite good at the moment with Tyson Fury, David Price, Derek Chisora, Larry Olubamiwo, Sam Sexton all looking to get amoungst it with Skelton etc. I'm not saying these guys will go on and be world beaters but should still make for some tasty domestic dust ups.

Come on Mark, i want your opinion on the current world scene

I have'nt seen a great deal of Chisora, Olubamiwo or Sexton, But iv;e watched all of Tyson's fights and the British scene is certainly in need of new blood, now that Skelton, Williams, Harrison and Sprott are all on their way out. One thing that young guys should have on there mind, is that if they become European champion, they are almost guaranteed a shot at a world title duw to the money involved. Look at Bruno, he had four attempts and that was because he was a British fighter who could generate big money. Having said that, fighters can make their way through the ranks almost unknown these days, because of the fact that terestial tv does'nt cover the majority of fights anymore and certainly high profile ones and that was the backbone to the commercial succes of fighters like Bruno, Benn, Eubank and Hamed.

[DG.]

The Klitschko brothers are a cut above the rest at the moment and could have competed in any era

I do not think so,imagine what Larry Holmes would do to WLAD..

Still and shit that's Wald!

Mike Weaver - Witherspoon etc would destroy him.

Wlad is lucky all the big american men turn to Basketball and Football these days.

Wlads shit.

[Cannibal]

I remember people debating whether the late 90's-early 00's was the worst when that was happening with a mentally past his prime Tyson, Lewis doing what the Klitschko's are doing today, Holyfield gradually moving out of the main picture, Bowe gone and Don King with a grip on every other heavyweight. I think that time period has been elevated slightly with retrospect though. I don't think the current one will.

The argument at the time I remember was that the period in the 80's when Larry Holmes dominated was worse. Although, I think Holmes would beat pretty much all of the current crop in his prime and maybe even past it. So yes, I think this is the worst heavyweight period.

I think you'll find that back through history that any period of great heavyweight champions was usually followed by a mediocre period when all the greats retired at the same time.

[Quixall]

The Klitschko brothers are a cut above the rest at the moment and could have competed in any era

I do not think so,imagine what Larry Holmes would do to WLAD..

Still and shit that's Wald!

Mike Weaver - Witherspoon etc would destroy him.

Wlad is lucky all the big american men turn to Basketball and Football these days.

Wlads shit.

Don't say that to Alcaldemb on boxing chat......

He will acuse you of being an ignoramous that has no place on a boxing debating forum

Wlad is a good heavyweight and could have given a lot of the 80's and 90's fighters a run for their money, but i agree, someone like larry Holmes in his prime would have been too much. Then again, Larry Holmes would have been too much for most fighters and don't forget, it was Holmes that gave out the blueprint on how to beat Mike Tyson and only failed because he was fat and old by the time they fought.

Larry Holmes was a class fighter

[hitman09]

The Klitschko brothers are a cut above the rest at the moment and could have competed in any era

I do not think so,imagine what Larry Holmes would do to WLAD..

Still and shit that's Wald!

Mike Weaver - Witherspoon etc would destroy him.

Wlad is lucky all the big american men turn to Basketball and Football these days.

Wlads shit.

And Vitali? He is the far better of the brothers IMO and would probably beat Holmes, who of course would beat Wlad, I never suggested he wouldn't.

[Quixall]

The Klitschko brothers are a cut above the rest at the moment and could have competed in any era

I do not think so,imagine what Larry Holmes would do to WLAD..

Still and shit that's Wald!

Mike Weaver - Witherspoon etc would destroy him.

Wlad is lucky all the big american men turn to Basketball and Football these days.

Wlads shit.

And Vitali? He is the far better of the brothers IMO and would probably beat Holmes, who of course would beat Wlad, I never suggested he wouldn't.

People do tend to link the Klitschko brothers together and it's important to seperate Vitali from Wlad IMO, because in his prime Vitali, as you say, would have competed with the very best (1970's aside), where as Wlad would fall short, fighting someone of the calibre of Holmes

[NRH]

I think there's only 2 guys around at present who could be competitive in the era's you mentioned and they are Chagaev and Vitali Klitschko. Wlad would get brutally KO'd in those era's when heavyweights were a bit more positive in their approach, and in better shape.

[banjo]

Horrible state it is, Vitali got cut to ribbons by an old, inactive and out of shape Lennox Lewis but he's probably the best heavyweight out there today.

[Quixall]

I think there's only 2 guys around at present who could be competitive in the era's you mentioned and they are Chagaev and Vitali Klitschko. Wlad would get brutally KO'd in those era's when heavyweights were a bit more positive in their approach, and in better shape.

Yeah, i agree...

I can't see Wlad up against a shavers, Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Tyson, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield or even Bowe, where as Vitali could compete with them all, but would only have a chance against Holyfield and Lewis IMO.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

One of the problems with todays heavies is they are just not exciting enough, and maybe its because the East Europeon boxers are to safety first in there boxing.

The leading heavyweight Wladimir Klitschko has a 52-3 record with 46 KO's!!!! and been stopped in all his losses, but how many exciting fights has he been in?? A handful , if that.
Same with his brother Vitali Klitschko who has only been the distance once in 36 wins, with records like that they should be exciting the crowds, but they just don't.

- Saw an interview with Chuvalo the other day decrying the lack of excitement.

Every heavyweight division that ever existed fell short of previous storied eras. That's the nature of bandwagon fans and media who also have their own primes and are challenged by newer generations of fighters.

Some give props to the Klitschkos, but downgrade their defenses. How long would it take Peter, Brock, Sanders, even a past it Rahman to dispose of the gutted Cleve Williams Ali is touted for, or Brian London, or even broke back Patterson who could barely mount a retreat? You don't think Chris Byrd couldn't pick apart Hurricane Jackson, Tom McNeeley, Richard Dunn, Evangelista, Coopman, Leon, Wepner, Scott Frank, Zanon, Marvis, Rodriguez, Ocasio, Bey, and so on?

It's a racial thing this excitement charge. Eastern Euros are incredibly stoic in their culture, and interviewing in a foreign language, they are well aware the English speaking peoples caricatures of Russians, so they speak carefully in a foreign tongue and carry themselves with respect. Ali's act got terribly stale and punch drunk in his comeback, and of course Bowe, Toney, and Tyson hit all time lows. I prefer intelligent gentlemen and sportsmen, not gibbering ME, ME, it's all about ME and my loud mouth and bad manners.

Lewis was criticized in the same fashion as the brothers. Ruddock a club fighter, Tommy the great white dope, beat by lazy Mercer, Grant a glass chin bum, afraid to get out behind the jab against Tua, sparked by clubfighters, no personality, too gentlemanly. He retires, and suddenly he's a top ten all time fighter.

Plop the brothers in any era, and some HOF champs to be knocked off. Ol' Skin & Bones Fitz a storied fighter, but these brothers are the latest in the ongoing trend to superheavies. Patterson the last 190lb champ with every champ since well over 200. Byrd the exception in the era because of skills and reflexes, but man o man did he struggle.

[Quixall]

Horrible state it is, Vitali got cut to ribbons by an old, inactive and out of shape Lennox Lewis but he's probably the best heavyweight out there today.

Are'nt you forgeting the Hayemaker

[banjo]

Horrible state it is, Vitali got cut to ribbons by an old, inactive and out of shape Lennox Lewis but he's probably the best heavyweight out there today.

Are'nt you forgeting the Hayemaker

Yet to prove it, but I'm hoping so

[ArtOfWar]

Size overtaking skill is the biggest problem. Even if a fighter is not the best in the world he can still be fun to watch if he's able to put his shots together. The Klitschkos rarely through combinations, and they are the two best guy's in the division. What does that tell you? Valuev is even worse, he simply can't throw combinations. Then behind that you've got a mixture of unproven fighters and guy's who simply aren't very good. There is no depth at all.

Chris Arreola is being hyped up by the Americans, they wouldn't have given two s**ts about him in the nineties. The man is still trying to prove himself to the boxing public and he can't even get in decent shape. What's he gonna be like if he wins a belt and makes a couple of million dollars. That's why so many people are excited by Haye and Povetkin. Both smaller guy's who have things to prove, but at least they can put combinations together and get the crowd going.