Lost Picture?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Feb 2009, 22:19

I read somewhere before negotiations ever even began on the Johnson-Jefferies fight, that a large poster was constructed and sent across America depicting a girl looking up at Jim Jefferies with the caption "Please, come back and beat Jack Johnson", or something to that effect.

I've searched, but could never find this picture anywhere. Does anyone know where it could even be found?

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 12 Feb 2009, 11:46

HomicideHenry wrote:I read somewhere before negotiations ever even began on the Johnson-Jefferies fight, that a large poster was constructed and sent across America depicting a girl looking up at Jim Jefferies with the caption "Please, come back and beat Jack Johnson", or something to that effect.

I've searched, but could never find this picture anywhere. Does anyone know where it could even be found?

There was no poster. It was a picture published, I think, in one of the Chicago newspapers - I believe the Tribune. It's the only newspaper in which I've seen it. Jeff was in Chicago for extended periods in March and May 1909, and I believe it was taken and published then.

I have the clipping and if I have time this weekend I'll look for it.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 12 Feb 2009, 17:59

If you can find it post it on here, its a picture of Jefferies I doubt many have seen. Its a true piece of lost history.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 12 Feb 2009, 19:14

As I said, if I have time this weekend, I'll look for it.

jaclem2 · Post by **jaclem2** » 15 Feb 2009, 04:14

...there's a cartoon i saw and can't recall where. it shows johnson before the jeffries figjt lying on woodpile, unconcious...an "artist" rendering of what w.c. fields referred to a few times as "an ethiopian in the fuel supply."

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 15 Feb 2009, 15:34

There was another picture somewhere that was done, of Jefferies in the sun, while Johnson was depicted in the moon, or something to that extent.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 16 Feb 2009, 12:22

I haven't located the "little girl" picture yet.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Feb 2009, 13:03

Ahhhh cool!!!! Thanks for that pic!

Hope you find the little girl one as well

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 19 Feb 2009, 22:43

BUMP!!!

raylawpc did you find the picture yet?

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 20 Feb 2009, 18:27

To tell the truth, I haven't looked. I'll look this weekend if I get a chance.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 20 Feb 2009, 19:06

Okies, fair enough.

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 21 Feb 2009, 18:29

That photograph can been seen on disc one of the DVD, Unforgivalble Blackness.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 23 Feb 2009, 18:52

I seen the picture on the documentary last night. Thing is, I just cant find that picture anywhere to copy it.

jmc617 · Post by **jmc617** » 26 Feb 2009, 23:10

Here is a edited screenshot.

I am heading over to the library tomorrow to finish up some research I am doing on the 1983 New York Golden Gloves I will try to get a copy from the micofilm. It is from the Chicago Sunday Tribune April 1910 Not sure of the exact date but I will try to find it.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 26 Feb 2009, 23:12

jmc617 · Post by **jmc617** » 26 Feb 2009, 23:24

I'll get a better pic for ya hopefully tomorrow or Saturday going to see Jerson Ravelo in with Don Mouton, can't wait.

This documentry is awesome can't believe I haven't seen it. Man, why didn't Dempsey defend against Johnson after beating Willard? Was it entirely a racial issue? Was Johnson over the hill I can't find anything on it.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 26 Feb 2009, 23:30

jmc617 wrote:I'll get a better pic for ya hopefully tomorrow or Saturday going to see Jerson Ravelo in with Don Mouton, can't wait.

This documentry is awesome can't believe I haven't seen it. Man, why didn't Dempsey defend against Johnson after beating Willard? Was it entirely a racial issue? Was Jack over the hill I can't find anything on it.

Supposedly the two fought underground in Canada for gamblers. But that is an aged old rumors.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 26 Feb 2009, 23:36

jmc617 wrote:I'll get a better pic for ya hopefully tomorrow or Saturday going to see Jerson Ravelo in with Don Mouton, can't wait.

This documentry is awesome can't believe I haven't seen it. Man, why didn't Dempsey defend against Johnson after beating Willard? Was it entirely a racial issue? Was Jack over the hill I can't find anything on it.

Johnson was still evading the U.S. government in 1919 as he'd been convicted of violating the Mann Act. He turned himself in in 1920 and spent 3 years in prison. By the time he got out, he was in his early 40s and fairly washed up as a fighter. He beat Jack Thompson, Homer Smith, and Pat Lester in 3 absolutely horrendous bouts before losing to black journeyman Bob Lawson.

The alleged Dempsey-Johnson fight in Canada is complete fairy-tale.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 26 Feb 2009, 23:43

dempseyfire wrote:
jmc617 wrote:I'll get a better pic for ya hopefully tomorrow or Saturday going to see Jerson Ravelo in with Don Mouton, can't wait.

This documentry is awesome can't believe I haven't seen it. Man, why didn't Dempsey defend against Johnson after beating Willard? Was it entirely a racial issue? Was Jack over the hill I can't find anything on it.
Johnson was still evading the U.S. government in 1919 as he'd been convicted of violating the Mann Act. He turned himself in in 1920 and spent 3 years in prison. By the time he got out, he was in his early 40s and fairly washed up as a fighter. He beat Jack Thompson, Homer Smith, and Pat Lester in 3 absolutely horrendous bouts before losing to black journeyman Bob Lawson.

The alleged Dempsey-Johnson fight in Canada is complete fairy-tale.

Iono about it being a fairytale completely, if it was then Dempsey would have easily dominated Johnson. According to legend, Johnson knocked Dempsey down, and Dempsey managed to knock him out in the 7th.

jmc617 · Post by **jmc617** » 27 Feb 2009, 00:10

I found this interesting thread on the match someone was selling a newspaper the brooklyn eagle on ebay that had a round by round even of exactly what happened during the fight.

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Boxing, moreso than any other sport I can think of, loves to wallow in mystery and conspiracy. It's not surprising given its illegal nature in most of the country up until the early 20th century, but it does leave us with many seemingly contradictory and nebulous factoids to sort through.

One whispered rumor that stretches back to the 1920s is this:

In 1921, immediately following his record-breaking million-dollar gate fight against Georges Carpentier, heavyweight champion of the world Jack Dempsey quietly drove up to Saskatoon, Canada and, in an illegal prizefight staged by high-roller gamblers, met and knocked out Jack Johnson, the former heavyweight champion who had been released from prison in July of that year.

A tall tale perhaps, and one that begs many questions - Dempsey made $300,000 to fight Carpentier, how much could a hundred-or-so high rollers offer the champ for a private bout? The biggest elephant in the ring, of course, is the lack of confirmatory evidence in the papers of the day. Or so I thought.

A seller on eBay claims to have an original copy of a 1921 newspaper, "The Brooklyn Eagle", which purportedly has a round-by-round description of the bout as relayed to them from a firsthand source in attendance.

Now this rumor of a Dempsey vs Johnson fight stretches all the way back to this period, but neither Dempsey nor Johnson ever confirmed it, or even debunked it to my knowledge. Boxing historian Monte Cox gives the following account of Dempsey's reaction to the rumor:

QUOTE
Lew Eskin, former Boxing Illustrated Editor, wrote an article about it in Dec 1985 Fightbeat magazine. He asked Dempsey about it who was evasive. The only thing Jack would say is he boxed a series of exhibitions during that time. He asked Dempsey if he could publish the story in B.Ill. but Dempsey said, "Not Now" which Eskin took to mean not in his lifetime. The bout with Jack Johnson was allegedly an under the table affair for rich gamblers.

One of the truly intriguing aspects of Jack Dempsey was that as a mature adult world champion, he worked tirelessly to recreate his image as that of a gentleman, and did a good job of it too. He took diction lessons, read a newspaper from front to back every single day, and made every effort to distance himself from gamblers and other shady types (Al Capone was a big Dempsey fan and actually offered to promote Dempsey after Jack split from Doc Kearns - Dempsey quickly and quietly declined). But there is no doubt that during his hardscrabble years as a young hobo and itinerant worker, Dempsey couldn't help but associate with such men - heck, he worked in brothels and speakeasies all over Colorado and Utah! Dempsey was so ashamed of this aspect of his life that he outright denied all of it after his career was over; even the 1917 Fireman Jim Flynn fight in Utah, a dive so blatant that both fighters were chased out of town and boxing banned, is stated by Dempsey himself as being completely on the level - the journeyman Flynn KO'd Dempsey with one punch within 10 seconds (for his part Dempsey took his money, rumored to be $500, and was fighting in California 3 weeks later).

So Dempsey was not above doing the bidding of gamblers during his young and hungry years out west. Could he have repaid a favor to some by fighting Jack Johnson in some remote Canadian basement only 4 years after the Flynn debacle? I don't know, but I'd sure be curious to read that article!

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BroughtonRulesRefuge · Post by **BroughtonRulesRefuge** » 27 Feb 2009, 01:27

HomicideHenry wrote:Iono about it being a fairytale completely, if it was then Dempsey would have easily dominated Johnson. According to legend, Johnson knocked Dempsey down, and Dempsey managed to knock him out in the 7th.

- Having read the article at least a dozen dozen times, for a fairy tale it's very well written and makes a great case.

For one thing the timing is impeccable. Doubt there was much access to records a sportswriter had in those days, but on box rec there is a hole in both records at that time big enough for the bout to have occurred.

Most of us know the alleged story of Johnson pestering Jeff in a bar for a title shot, and Jeff offering to go into the basement of the establishment and put up a purse of $500 for Johnson who refused. That story meshes with the Langford challenge in the street after their bout. Johnson for all his faults was not a rash bully and seemed to stay out of scraps.

We also know he did pester Dempsey and Louis. I can see him in desperation making a deal with Kearns, a great opportunity to make some high stakes money in a gold rush town and cut out Rickard.

The fighters would not be in peak condition, being more in exhibition condition. Jack's style required peak training, so it quite likely that Johnson also knew his stamina was suspect and threw all his chips in at once. It also could be Jack was instructed to wear the cuffs early on to build the bets up and got caught like what happened in the Carpentier bout where he allegedly was asked to carry Georges a few rounds.

I was a little suspect at the description of the fight, but after reading carefully and considering all the angles laid out, it really did make sense since it was held on the sly in the basement of a gentlemen's club. The way Dempsey responds when hurt was classic, and the way Johnson battles and goes down sounded dead on, not like any thing we have on film or accounts of his other KO losses.

Superior writing and if a fairy tale, Eskine was supremely imaginative as well as talented.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 27 Feb 2009, 01:30

You have that article? Hell man post it in here.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 27 Feb 2009, 01:37

Dempsey was not in Canada at the date speculated. It's complete hogwash, just the idea of it even is so ridiculous it's not even worth arguing about.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 27 Feb 2009, 01:39

Johnson, though, was in Canada during that time. And as far as anyone knows, Dempsey was in Canada around the same time. It could have happened. You never know.

BroughtonRulesRefuge · Post by **BroughtonRulesRefuge** » 27 Feb 2009, 01:39

HomicideHenry wrote:You have that article? Hell man post it in here.

- I tried to bring it up, but something wrong with the file and it froze my 'puter for 5 min.

I'll try again tomorrow, but it's a weird zip file and I'm not sure what copies on here, not being the 'puter whiz some of you are.

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