Modern Day Bare Knucklers

[HomicideHenry]

In addition to his pro career, Paul Sykes represented England as an amateur boxer. He also had countless streetfights, bar-room brawls and tear-ups. He was scheduled to fight Lenny Maclean in an unlicensed fight some time in the early 1980s but this never happened. Sykes got locked up before it could go ahead. The man was a complete loose canon and an exploitative bully though. Don't have any illusions, Sykes could be witty but he was a nasty peice of work. He was a lethal cocktail - an unbalanced, unstable heavyweight boxer, powerlifter and heavy drinker. A bit like a 6'3'' 220lb version of Begbie from the film Trainspotting. One to avoid. And definitely not one to share a prison cell with.

I think had Lenny fought Sykes in the 1980's, it would have proved disasterous for the Guvnor. Lenny, imo, may have been the face of unlicensed boxing in Britain, but, had he fought Roy Shaw in his prime, he wouldnt have come out the winner in the series they had. Sykes, I would have loved to have seen face Johnny Waldron, Cliff Fields and John Fury though.

Sykes was an accomplished amatuer and a solid pro, Lenny was a barroom brawler. Sykes would have beaten Lenny like a drum.

I know, I just said that McLean lost to Shaw, Fields, Waldron, Paddock, and probably others. Lenny, though, had more personality than the rest of the bunch, so, he attracted the most attention. Its funny about McLean, his cousin was allegedly, and even he said Lenny was "a terrible bully." McLean was strong as a bull, throw haymakers without abandon, and rarely followed the rules, he was a dangerous man if he got you hurt. He knew how to stir shit up, evidentially he called out Muhammad Ali as well as Mr. T and even Charles Bronson, but for one reason or another the bouts never came off.

Considering Fields, Waldron, Paddock and Shaw all had legit careers in the ring as well as dabbling in unlicensed matches, I think someone who was tough enough, strong enough and had the basics down, probably would have beaten McLean rather easily. But as far as street fights go, McLean swore up and down he never lost "on the cobbles". I dont think theres that many out there to dispute this.

[HomicideHenry]

^^^This is the biggest picture I could find of Bartley Gorman, looks an awful lot like how Bob Fitzsimmons would pose in pictures

Outside of the 10 minute documentary on him, I have yet to get my hands on his book. I thought the library could get the book for me, but, they said the autobiography was only available in the UK, that my best bet would be to buy it over the internet on Amazon.com.

I reckon I'll try and get it when I can.

[HomicideHenry]

http://waynebarkeruk.com/waynebarker.html

^^^This is another guy I found who did bare knuckle fights

Evidentially he ended up fighting Teddy Mann, who was a huge fan favorite in the 1980's, and I guess he ended up being a manager/promoter/match-maker

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

His record was 12-5-1, 3 kayos

He may very well have been the best so far on this list possibly, but I think John Fury would have taken him, but maybe I'm being biased, as Barker was a middleweight and Fury was a heavyweight.

[Robinson]

But he was a Gypsy bare knuckler.....that means he is the best.

[Robinson]

Cool photo of Gorman doing a throw back pose to the middle-late 19th century.

[HomicideHenry]

John Fury wasn't all that good a professional boxer. I saw him lose to an 18 year-old Adam Fogerty - who gave him a boxing lesson - on TV. I also saw him fight live when he fought and lost to Neil Malpass in a Central Area heavyweight title bout about twenty years ago. Although Malpass was basically a journeyman he outpointed Fury quite comfortably. John's brother (and Tyson's uncle) also fought - and lost - on the same bill. John Fury was big and heavy and he wasn't bad but don't run away with the idea that he was a really good pro. I remember Fury as quite limited, to be honest.

Fury, on a quick side note here, also attended the funeral of Bartley Gorman. According to journalist Cole Moreton, after the wake, the gypsies talked about whether Gorman could have defeated such pros as Mike Tyson in bare knuckle rules. Evidentially John Fury must have thought Gorman was the best gypsy fighter of recent memory.

I'm just assuming Fury is so far the best modern day bare knuckler, based on his actual professional boxing record. Its hard to get the true measure of a man, you know? In modern rules, fights are called off if someone doesnt punch back quick enough, etc. in Gorman's rules fights didnt stop unless a man was completely knocked out or quit on his own accord. Its sort of like how guys bitch about 12 round fights today, saying had fights been 15, so and so would have won. Those things are speculative. They are big what if's.

But he was a Gypsy bare knuckler.....that means he is the best.

No, that just means he is the best of his breed, and quite possibly the best under his own rules world wide.

[Robinson]

Under his own rules...

I am the best under my own rules...galaxy wide.

[HomicideHenry]

What rules are those Robinson?

Something tells me this is gonna end up being like a Rodney Carrington joke, "I'm pretty damn good hitting the bag, I bet I'd beat the shit out of someone with no arms."

[Robinson]

My rules are that I get to win and get all the pretty girls.

[HomicideHenry]

.................don't we all follow by those rules?

[Collins2000]

Do you get the feeling he didn't get the irony in the joke, Kym?

[Robinson]

: - )

[bollox]

Look what I found

[Collins2000]

Look what I found

Jeez, fwank looks so young. And lennie looks a real mauler. They were 2nd cousins or summat?

Do you remember when Fwank first got into the licenced game? He was the young upstart against the Duff, Levene, Barrett axis of evil who was gonna change things. How times have changed but much is still the same.

[bollox]

Look what I found

Jeez, fwank allegedly looks so young. And lennie allegedly looks a real mauler. They were 2nd alleged cousins or summat?

Do you remember when Fwank allegedly first got into the licenced game? He was allegedly the young upstart against the allegedly Duff, allegedly Levene, allegedly Barrett axis of evil who was allegedly gonna change things. How times have allegedly changed but much is allegedly still the same.

[Robinson]

hehe he has lawyers every where.

[HomicideHenry]

Yeah, they were 2nd cousins. Ironically, though, in years to come they would end up hating eachother, with Warren calling Lenny "a terrible bully."

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

^^^Sam Gorman

He is cousins to Jerry Gorman, who I believe is a son of the late Bartley Gorman. Jerry is fighting both as an amatuer boxer and bare knuckle fighter, while Sam, from best of my knowledge just tackled the professional ranks without bare knuckle bouts, but I am not sure.

[HomicideHenry]

This is on Jerry Gorman's myspace, and is an interesting find. I hope they do make the film on Gorman. I must also correct my mistake, Jerry is the nephew of Bartley Gorman, and so is Sam Gorman.

[Controversial]

McLean was a bad mother fornicator, thats for sure. I think he would have taken Kimbo Slice and Joe Savage out on the same night. His kayo of Roy Shaw was brutal. I seen a clip of him fighting some man named Gypsy Bradshaw and kayoed him with a single blow after McLean was head butted. Of course, McLean continued his assault on the man even after he was knocked out.

You just didn't want to piss off The Guv'nor

Remember Shaw was 42 when he started fighting and was massively outweighed against McLean. And he did beat McLean in one fight.

From what ive heard and read McLean bent the truth somewhat, he did loose several fights. Like many of these guys their reputation gets distorted, exaggerated and blown out of proportion. A very hard man but not superhuman and beatable.

[HomicideHenry]

True, that Shaw was older by the time he fought McLean, but their trilogy, in a sense, is like the 'Ali-Frazier' series of the unlicensed world. I think, had Shaw been in his prime, he more than likely would have beaten the majority of the men on this thread. I believe, though, Shaw was the only man who genuinely put an effort into making a fight with Bartley Gorman, but it just never came off. McLean, on the other hand, was more of a character, and his bullish looks made him popular. Not to say he wasnt tough or good, but he relied more on brawn than skill, and unfortunately lost at the hands of more accomplished men, such as Johnny Waldron.

Of them all, I believe Gorman and Shaw to be the best of the modern day bare knucklers; but the ones who seem to have proven themselves better are Waldron, Fury and Barker. With the same conviction, you may say Paddy Monagahn was up there as well, considering his amateur exploits. But, I think on any given night, Gorman and Shaw in their primes would have beaten those mentioned.

[HomicideHenry]

Bartley Gorman (left) and his brother Sam Gorman (right).


It must be noted that Bartley's great-grandfather fought the legendary Jem Mace in Ireland, though this may have been just an exhibition.

[yiddo14]

Shaw had ten pro fights, winning them all, 6 by KO before he was banged up for the best part of 18 years or so! Who knows what he would have done had he not gone down?
He claims that Mickey Duff said he was one of his finest prospects at the time he was managing him.
If you have ever met Roy you will be amazed at just how small(height)the man is. He is barely 5'7-5'8! When he was fighting unlicensed he was in his forties(didn't get out of jail until 41/42)and was fighting men who were naturally 4-5 weight divisions above him! The fact he was recognised as the Guv'nor, beat Ron Stander(albeit an injured Stander, it still ranks way above any of these other guys best win)and McClean in their first fight, well into his fourth decade, and having spent migh on two of them decades in the harshest prisons in England(hardly great for your physical well being)surely means he is the top man compared to others?

Gorman may well be a very good fighter, but too much of his story is hearsay. No footage of his fights(surely if he was so great then someone would have took along a camcorder! There are plenty of Gypsy fighters I have seen on film who couldn't fight off sleep yet no one records the greatest one ever!?)and it's not unlike a Travelling man to let the truth get in the way of a good story now is it!

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Gorman may well be a very good fighter, but too much of his story is hearsay. No footage of his fights(surely if he was so great then someone would have took along a camcorder! There are plenty of Gypsy fighters I have seen on film who couldn't fight off sleep yet no one records the greatest one ever!?)and it's not unlike a Travelling man to let the truth get in the way of a good story now is it!

- Now, are you talking about Gorman or Greb here?

Greb one of the most popular fighters of his era with fights galore, yet no more than the briefest training clips in spite of still photos galore.

Also, Charley Burley is listed in the wiki list of bare knucklers, yet like his career, almost no tales of lore. What was really up with his bareknuckle career?

[HomicideHenry]

I think the Burley talk of him fighting illegal bare knuckle bouts is a myth. I cant find nothing at all, what so ever, on this. Oddly enough, though, you can find alot on Jack Dempsey's early days when he rode the rails and fought in bar rooms and any place men would gather, in bare knuckle fights for small purses or for room and board and food, while he fought under the alias of "Kid Blackie", where he supposedly fought over 80 matches under these conditions.