Jeffries vs Johnson: Prime Against Prime

[HomicideHenry]

Ironically enough the description of the bout reminds me of the Tyson-McNeeley farce back in 1995. McNeeley went down virtually every time he got hit, and his managers rushed in to save him from further punishment. Just like what happened with Finnegan.

[HomicideHenry]

Btw, for those who have said in the thread that Johnson could have taken Jeffries out at any time or so, I don't see this as being realistic. Mind you, though Johnson did do alot of playful tactics and the like during the fight, by the 12th round Jeffries' mouth was cut from the inside, his nose was broken, he had a bad cut over his left eye and he was badly swollen and bleeding profusely.

Now, in the 13th the crowd even was screaming for the fight to be stopped, asking Tex Rickard and handlers to throw in the towel for Jeffries, but Jeffries still went into the 14th round, and Johnson without hesitation went for the knockout but Jeffries refused to go down. Johnson even hit Jeffries at one point in the round over and over again yelling at him "How do you feel Mr. Jim? How did that feel?", to which Jeffries said "Those dont hurt."

But in the 15th, he was finally knocked down (twice) and Corbett and Rickard and the whole lot jumped in to stop the slaughter...the crowd was silent and sad, practically in tears over what they had just taken place inside the ring.

He had more than a dozen cuts all over his face, but managed to say after the bout these words: "I was the great white hope, they told me. My pride got the better of my good judgement. Six years ago it would have been different. Now I guess the public will let me alone after this."


The writer/columnist Rex Beech wrote these sad lines:

"Today we saw a tragedy, a tremendous crushing anticlimax has happend and we are all dazed."

The bigoted Jack London put up these sentiments:

"Once again Johnson sent down to defeat the chosen representative of the white race and this time the greatest of them. And as of old, it was play for Johnson. It was not a great battle after all, save in its settings and significance. Johnson played as usual, and he played and fought a white man in a white mans country, before a white man audience...the greatest fight of the century was a monologue delivered to twenty thousand spectators by a smiling Negro who was never in doubt and never serious for more than a moment at a time. Jeffries today dispoed of one question...he could not come back...Johnson in turn answered another question...He has not the yellow streak. But he only answered that question for today...but the question of the yellow streak is not answered for all time...And where now is the champion who will make Johnson extend himself, who will glaze those bright eyes, remove that smile and silence that golden repartee?"


Many may argue that Louis-Schmeling was the biggest political and social fight of all time. That Louis represented America, Schmeling Germany. That Louis's win meant that to Americans they were going to defeat the Nazi's, that it felt like Louis had knocked out Hitler...some will argue that Cooney-Holmes was "bigger" in terms of gate and the like...but in my mind, there has never and there never will be, a fight that was as big or as important to the entire world, as Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Holmes-Cooney doesn't matter unless you're American. I can assure you, the rest of the world showed no more than a passing interest, if that. There is just no way Johnson-Jeffries can match up against Louis-Schmeling II in terms of significance.

Only one country was ever in on Johnson-Jeffries.

[HomicideHenry]

NOT TRUE!!!!

Hell even a member of Parliment in England was quoted as saying these exact words:

"It is the duty of Mr. Jeffries to satisfy the enormous curiousity of the public which supports him so magnificently in this noble cause."

Believe you me, the entire world was watching and waiting just as much on the winner of Johnson-Jeffries as the rest of America was. I cant honestly think of any fight before that happened, that drew so much publicity from around the globe, as Johnson-Jeffries was.

Hell, in Ireland, after the fact years later, there was a famous song written up called "My Brother Sylvester, The Big Strong Man" that mentions the fight itself, going along the lines of "Have you seen the Johnson Jeffries fight? It was one hell of a sight!"

This wasnt just an American phenomenon, the whole world went along for the ride.

[Goodnight, Irene]

There are news clippings of Dempsey's fights in New Zealand, in the 20's. Astonishing as that is, it doesn't mean New Zealand was transfixed by Dempsey as America was.

Nobody said there was zero interest outside of America, but this is the only country that was utterly compelled by Johnson-Jeffries, with a few others moderately interested (& of those, you can point to England or some other Western, directly-linked-to-the-US nation). Very little interest from Africa, Asia, or even many other Western nations, such as Australia (even though Johnson had previously fought & made history on our shores).

In contrast, Louis-Schmeling II not only encompassed two opposing nations, but attracted serious, serious interest from allied nations on both sides of the divide. It wasn't globally significant (no fight ever has been), but it was a lot bigger than Johnson-Jeffries.

I don't think anybody paid much attention to Holmes-Cooney outside of the US.

[HomicideHenry]

I still am inclined to disagree with you. There was just as much great white hope talk among Europeans, as there was Americans. Mind you, the much touted "Bombardier" Billy Wells was up for consideration to win the crown for the white race, until he was blowed away by Gunner Moir and everyone realized Wells had no chin.

Throw in the Irish white hope Jim Coffey, the Roscommon Giant, and for all intents and purposes was more than likely the best man for the job or least the most qualified European challenger as he could take punches and was very powerful and deadly in the ring, though more or less a lumbering oaf like Jess Willard and other 'giants' of the time like Fred Fulton. Hell, even Australia was all in the heap, with guys like Bill Lang hoping to mix it up with Jack Johnson and be the 'redeemer of the race'.

It wasnt just America, and maybe you are right to an extent, that most of the hooplah was from the American public, but Johnson-Jeffries was HUGE and after the loss, the entire world went on a search for someone out there who could have done the job of beating Johnson.

Most historians will tell you that the 'white hope/Johnson era' was just about the greatest era for promoters as you had every man and his brother and uncle putting on the gloves, people from all walks of life, whether that be miners, lumberjacks, circus freaks, what have you, all tried in vain to become the next white hope.

If Jeffries-Johnson isnt the biggest attraction in boxing history, the AFTER MATH, sure as hell was.

[HomicideHenry]

Nobody will ever forget. Its been almost 110 years ago, and its still quite possibly the greatest pivotal point in heavyweight history. Before that fight boxing was more or less an under-ground, if not entirely despised sport by many of the upper-class...the after math of that single fight, turned out fans from across the globe that before then had no interest in it what so ever. Boxing BOOMED because of that one encounter, which paved the way for Dempsey, and later Louis and many others since.

This fight effected politicians, the religous, the blue collar, the white collar, people of all nations and creeds and colors...in ways it opened up a Pandora's box that wouldn't entirely go away, and that was the ongoing racist and biased opinions of the time...but it also opened the door to something different, something new and something grand...boxing became a sport on the world stage.

[Robinson]

I think that Americans do not realise that the rest of the world is not as hung up on race as they are.

[HomicideHenry]

Bullshit. When Johnson fought Burns, there were many an Aussie who called Jack Johnson a coon and a person throughout the fight. Thats just one example to prove how wrong people are on all this. Maybe the world isnt like that today, but believe you me, 100 years plus ago, the world was a very different place.

[dempseyfire]

I think that Americans do not realise that the rest of the world is not as hung up on race as they are.

Aren't you Australian? You mean the ENGLISH were never 'hung up on race?"

And Australia's racial problems seemed to subside only after they had killed off most of the Aborigines.

Not trying to start an argument just saying much of the world has racial issues just like the U.S.

[Robinson]

Mate dont even talk about the aboriginal issue. You have no idea what you are on about it or what Fox news reports to make the USA seem all that great.

We killed most of the aboriginals ? well Australia was a federated nation in 1901. before that it was a collection of Crown colonies.

See you guys became an independent nation in 1776. How many Indians, African slaves, Chinese and Irish workers were killed under your proud flag of fraternity for all.

Atleast when we were a crown colony slavery was abolished in the Empire.

Yes there were and still racists here in Australia and during the Burns fight the fights filming was stopped on racial grounds by the police.

My point being is that in the case of the Jefferies-Johnson fight, that was a big deal in Australia as far as boxing goes not so much to do with its racial under tones. As was and still is the case with the US.

And the Holmes Cooney fight ... how was that huge outside of the USA ?

Kym

[donnellon]

Jim Coffey was Irish, it is true, but he started boxing in the USA and was a product of the American White Hope campaign. Con O'Kelly was the only name fighter that left Ireland to become a White Hope. BTW Coffey couldn't take a punch worth mentioning-that's why he never really made it dispite having the punch and some boxing skills, he was not at all like Willard in as much as he was much quicker, less brave and stood only 6-1 and touched the scales at 190'ish
I'd still plump for Johnson-Jeff over Louis-Schmeling for impact but IMO it's a matter of opinion! Holmes-Cooney however is not even on that radar.

[Robinson]

I think Schmelling-Louis is bigger after the war or even during it.
As it made for a great propaganda coup. It represented to so many
so much more. Partly due to the fact that the Germans themselves
were making such a big thing of the rematch, especially after the first
victory of Schmelling over Louis.

When the war broke out especially in 1941-42, the fight would have
had new meaning and would no doubt have been showed time and
time again in the cinema's. Not as a sporting event, which it purely should
have remained. But as a rallying cry and a moral contest between the
US and Nazism.

I remember reading about the Louis-Carnera fight, which was timed
around the same time as the Italian Ethiopian and Abyssian campaigns
that this fight had wider over tones. With the Louis win over the
'Fascist' Italian, Louis of course representing the black Ethiopians, that
it proved to be a great victory for 'freedom'. Especially in a time when the
League of Nations appeared so impotent and passive.

I think the Louis-Schmelling fight was bigger across the globe, partly because radio broadcasts and news papers circulated quicker made the fight more readily available. Louis was the fist of democracy, whereas Schmelling the Jackboot of tyranny in those dark, uncertain times of the 1930s.

Jefferies-Johnson, was a pure race issue. A gross, sickening time in our history when 'great' writers such as Jack London would invoke a repugnant tribal hatred of one race over another. To suggest skin colour or ethnicity represents what is right or wrong. The intellectuals and writers so eager to get behind a returning Jefferies, so as to prove the
supremacy of white over that over darker races. As though it was to prove some social theory.

And those oppressed minorities, especially in the southern states happy that one of there own should be crowned above...a white man. Boxing beaing the purest of sports of a man versus a man. Nothing more or nothing less. Mind and body tested against the other. A black man won. There must be hope.

The principles were far from evenly matched. Jefferies way past his best, whose only qualifications being his skin colour.

As Dennis Rappaport 80 years later would say in regards to Cooney. "It was not because he (in this case Jefferies) is white, but because he is right" Right for who I ask ?

This simplistic desire to have two individuals champion a race or
cause at a signifigant time in history will always imortalise an event
in the annals of history.

I guess you pick which is more significant...I personally feel that to the US socially and historically that Jefferies v Johnson was bigger.

Whereas internationally Schmelling v Louis is a bigger and more significant match.

In either case as far as pure boxing goes. It was a case in both matches of a current champion beating easily a faded and past his best former one.


I hope my rambling made sesnse.

Kym

[HomicideHenry]

easily a faded and past his best former one.

Not to get off track here, but Max Schmeling wasn't anywhere near faded. While many writers of the time written him off as being an old man and passed his best, the record proves that this just wasnt true. He drew and later beat Uzcudon [sorry for any spelling mistakes] and then he defeated the favorited Louis, and should have deserved the shot at Braddock and more than likely would have won.

If anything, Schmeling was the reverse of Jack Johnson in this encounter, because since he was born in Germany, it became a matter of race and creed, and due to those "politics" he was denied his shot at Braddock, and was disrespectively called a Nazi when he was no such thing...much like Johnson whom people just saw the color of his skin, all people saw in Schmeling was his accent and his country and Adolph Hitler.

Race/Country/Creed played a huge role in that fight as well...and the ironic thing is, Louis was in a sense Jeffries in the encounter, as despite logic and circumstances [for Jeffries it was age and erosion, for Louis it was his skin color and loss to Schmeling] people were a bit reluctant at first but were all for the "American" (remember the 'white America' war cry in Jeffries fight?) to kill the Nazi, who wasnt a Nazi.

Hope that makes any sense, but nonetheless.

Cooney-Holmes I can agree with was a Don King "only in America" phenomenon, but Jeffries-Johnson and Louis-Schmeling wasn't, these were world affairs.

As far as Coffey is concerned, while that may be so, he sure as hell took a punch better than Wells did. And thanks for the info on Con O'Kelly, it just goes as more "proof" that the world was just as much in on the white hope fiasco as America was.

[Goodnight, Irene]

The "World" was not in on it at all. A few Western countries showed varying degrees of interest, none to anywhere approaching that which was happening in America. There was next-to-zero interest beyond Western nations.

There has never been any such thing as a globally significant boxing match.

[HomicideHenry]

Then I might as well said in the "civilized world" I forgot that a few islanders out in the bush probably didnt have telegraph communications at that point and time, and I am sure theres some areas in the world that probably dont even have radio.

So you're right in a sense, but America/Europe and pretty much any country connected with the commonwealth (Australia, etc) had a keen interest in the events that took place, and many a hopeful heavyweight came around to become the next "white hope."

[Goodnight, Irene]

Australia's interest wasn't that great. Boxing was more popular then than it is now, but it has never been anything more than a minor sport.

Who cares, anyway? Latham had it right --- this country is just a, "congo-line o' suckholes at the arse end o' the Earth"

[Robinson]

Ah to quote from the book of Mark.

:)

[Robinson]

I think as far as our small population goes, especially back then
we were a very boxing minded nation. In recent years boxing here has
had a popular though small following.

Plenty of casual fans. Not enough hard core ones.


Kym

[HomicideHenry]

BUMP!!!

[Collins2000]

I think as far as our small population goes, especially back then
we were a very boxing minded nation. In recent years boxing here has
had a popular though small following.

Plenty of casual fans. Not enough hard core ones.


Kym

If they ever get it back on terrestrial TV it will pick up again. It was huge in the 70's with boxing on 2 channels every week. In fact it reached saturation point and the quality fell away and that helped kill it. They ought to show good quality bouts from the UK and USA on TV once a week. It doesn't have to be live. Good overseas stuff and the odd Aus/regional title bout live. Those Aus shows on Foxsports are too long and filled with too much crapola with guys who have no long term goals; same lads doing 8 rounds dances that were doing them 5 years ago.

There's an interest there ready to be tapped. People here are willing to shell out for those PPV's (with almost invariably no Aus boxers on them) every month; sometimes twice a month. That's been going on for 10 years so there must be enough people paying for them to make it worthwhile.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

There has never been any such thing as a globally significant boxing match.

- Ali was never more than half popular in America,

Thanks to satellite feeds, he became a global phenom where his fights would be broadcast by the sole villager who had a TV and attract most of the village. Pretty significant the way people identified with Ali and the reason he gets so overrated as a boxer. He's like the pope to the 3rd world, and damned popular in the other western developed nations as well.

At any rate, according to typical forum logic, any fighter who gets beat never had chance. Floyd never regained his title, Louis never beat Max, and Larry beats Ali in 73 when he turns pro and Frazier always beats Ali. Vasquez never could stand up to Marquez.

Johnson and Jeffries are contemporary peers, being less than 3 yrs apart. Jeff was busting up the division literally from his first fight on. Johnson wandered for years in the wilderness trying to find footing. Jeff blows their common comp out of the water as a novice. Johnson could couldn't always handle the older more battle weary versions of the same comp.

When Jeff retired, he, like Rocky, literally was at the top of his game. Johnson was a class below. Like Leon, JJ came along at the perfect time, never really ready for prime Jeff, before McVey, Jeannette, and Langford got some experience under their belt, and got an opportunity against the shortest heavy champ in history.

[Collins2000]

- Ali was never more than half popular in America,

Yes, sad really. If he'd been white or a good old Uncle Tom I think it would have been a lot different.

He was popular in the UK, even though he whipped all our lads. But we didn't have the emotional baggage that goes with that 'peculiar institution' and those Jim Crow laws. Don't get me wrong, there was ugly racism in the UK but it wasn't as ingrained as in the USA plus our non-white population was very small and they were economic migrants rather than the grand-children of freed slaves.

[Seamus]

Ali was overwhelmingly popular among blacks in America in the 60's and early 70's. Among whites it was probably close to a 50/50 split. Alot of people thought that because of his association with Elijah Muhammad, that he was a racist. I didn't like him for that reason myself until about 72. Alot of people got proven wrong however when one of his daughters married a white man, and not only did Muhammad not disown her, but he actually attended the wedding.