~Battle of the Jacks~ December 11, 1921~7th Rd KO

[Collins2000]

I think Lew intended it as "Hey, guys, look what I found in a scrapbook. I can't disprove it. Waddaya think?"

And we are posting what we think.

It's called discussion, Ray.

[raylawpc]

I think Lew intended it as "Hey, guys, look what I found in a scrapbook. I can't disprove it. Waddaya think?"

And we are posting what we think.

It's called discussion, Ray.

Yeah, and its a great discussion. What's your point?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

First off, your ever-beloved stats are wrong. Johnson was INACTIVE for two years out of prison (as your article verifies) and when he began fighting professionally in 1923 scored only one knockout until his loss to Bob Lawson.

- My dear sweets, your fever-beloved grey matter has overheated.

Now, pay attention to the head threader date. His prison record was 5-0, 4 KO. Not outstanding opposition, but clearly a major makeover from his boring style where he was accused of carrying fighters. The Dempsey fight would've been the 6th fight in 13 months time after being released in July of 1921, his longest period of inactivity, 5 months.

We don't know exactly what he was doing, but the guy was like a traveling Larry Holmes, in the gym constantly, trying to hustle a buck and get some rounds in.

Most of us don't accept the article as any kind of Holy Grail, but as I pointed out, the author is an excellent writer who presents a compelling case with the evidence that he has. You on the other hand are the polar opposite of Mr. Eskin. Apparently the article and any discussion about the topic challenges your manhood as you really are acting out as though your whole notion of the existence of reality has been threatened.

Someone mentioned the Brooklyn Eagle Article being on sale on Ebay. That hasn't been verified, but if true, it's another nail in bowl of your jello.

[Collins2000]

I think Lew intended it as "Hey, guys, look what I found in a scrapbook. I can't disprove it. Waddaya think?"

And we are posting what we think.

It's called discussion, Ray.

Yeah, and its a great discussion. What's your point?

Just making sure we don't turn Lew into a saint. We already have Saint Ron whose views are not to be questioned...

[dempseyfire]

First off, your ever-beloved stats are wrong. Johnson was INACTIVE for two years out of prison (as your article verifies) and when he began fighting professionally in 1923 scored only one knockout until his loss to Bob Lawson.

- My dear sweets, your fever-beloved grey matter has overheated.

Now, pay attention to the head threader date. His prison record was 5-0, 4 KO. Not outstanding opposition, but clearly a major makeover from his boring style where he was accused of carrying fighters. The Dempsey fight would've been the 6th fight in 13 months time after being released in July of 1921, his longest period of inactivity, 5 months.

We don't know exactly what he was doing, but the guy was like a traveling Larry Holmes, in the gym constantly, trying to hustle a buck and get some rounds in.

Most of us don't accept the article as any kind of Holy Grail, but as I pointed out, the author is an excellent writer who presents a compelling case with the evidence that he has. You on the other hand are the polar opposite of Mr. Eskin. Apparently the article and any discussion about the topic challenges your manhood as you really are acting out as though your whole notion of the existence of reality has been threatened.

Someone mentioned the Brooklyn Eagle Article being on sale on Ebay. That hasn't been verified, but if true, it's another nail in bowl of your jello.

You said his record out of jail. Now his 5-0, 4 KO record vs prisoners in Kansas amounts to "a major makeover in style" and aligning that to be a real 'active' fighter??? D DD Johnson probably weighed 250 lbs knocking out those bums with a hand tied behind his back . . to state that opposition as "not outstanding" is the under-statement of the year. They wern't even professional fighters! Once the Johnson in his mid-40s started ACTUALLY FIGHTING other professional fighters, and guys who wern't world beaters, the spectators cried for their money back. But just before that, he engaged in a knock-down, drag-out fistic 'fight for the ages' vs world champion Jack Dempsey??? Keep citing how plausible it is, please, for the amusement of the others . . .

If the article really does exist (and it probably did as I'm not accusing Eskine of being a liar) that is not 'evidence' in any aspect. It is a falsified account published in a newspaper to sell stories. There are no corroborators, no any other reports, nor even any people who came forth in the now close to 90 years since the event took supposedly place and even claimed they were there. As mentioned before, there is much better evidence for Bigfoot than there is for this fight.

[BoxBuzz]

I'll go so far as to say the idea that this event if it was real could have been squelched is just too much of an imagined stretch. This event would have thundered through the popular culture like a Cat 5 Hurricane. There were just too many boxing enthusiasts at the time, and the barkers would have sent this info out tantamount to a "BradJolina" event in contemporary times. And just like current times even with an economic cataclysm in full swing, there would not have been enough competing drama to drown out those barkers. So this must be pure malarkey. Though I have to admit it's good quality malarkey. I wish we had this sort of Malarkey out there right now to drown out the BradJolina crap that I keep havin to hear about on the news.

[raylawpc]

Just making sure we don't turn Lew into a saint. We already have Saint Ron whose views are not to be questioned...

I can assure you from personal experience that Lew - may he rest in peace - was no saint. But he was a great guy to hang out with!!

I'll say, too, that he would probably be thrilled that the article generated this much discussion.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Johnson probably weighed 250 lbs knocking out those bums with a hand tied behind his back . . to state that opposition as "not outstanding" is the under-statement of the year. They wern't even professional fighters! Once the Johnson in his mid-40s started ACTUALLY FIGHTING other professional fighters, and guys who wern't world beaters, the spectators cried for their money back. But just before that, he engaged in a knock-down, drag-out fistic 'fight for the ages' vs world champion Jack Dempsey??? Keep citing how plausible it is, please, for the amusement of the others .

- My dear sweets, you have fallen so far behind that the teacher can't see you any more without a telescope.

I've already posted the contents of the article upon his release where he gives his weight around the 220 mark and brags about being in the condition of his life. I thought it was common knowledge he was put in charge of the gym and exercise areas during his Leavenworth stay, at least that's what I've heard plenty enough times.

As far as his style goes, age has nothing to do with him being booed as that happened through much of his career, arguably the first panto villain in sports. I also assumed it was common knowledge that fighter records back then are likely to be incomplete. At any rate, Topeka Jack Johnson is always mentioned as a boxer/baseball/owner-promoter which makes me think he was boxing to get his baseball team off the ground. Townsend and Boykin have many bouts after the Johnson bout, so it's likely that having boxed with Johnson the subsequent careers were better promoted and noted by the press.

See, you've been diddlin' away from the schoolroom while we've been studying. In his last two title fights, Moran and Willard, he was incredibly aggressive with a good pace and was willing to slug it out. He didn't have a mark on his face, so his defense carried him into his 40s relatively unscathed. Most of his defeats after Willard probably down to being poor again and and being depressed over never getting a title shot and missing the limelight.

As noted, Dempsey would've likely been wearing the cuffs to secure as much betting action as possible, and as I noted, the fight an echo of the Carpentier fight where early on Carp lands his Sunday punch and shakes up Jack for a second or two while he looks to be deliberately going thru the motions rather than fighting. As I also mentioned, they wouldn't be in fight shape, but exhibition shape that favors Johnson's style over the finely tuned Dempsey.

Funny thing is how the article has lured you in as a foil. You can't keep away any more than a moth to flame.

[dempseyfire]

Johnson probably weighed 250 lbs knocking out those bums with a hand tied behind his back . . to state that opposition as "not outstanding" is the under-statement of the year. They wern't even professional fighters! Once the Johnson in his mid-40s started ACTUALLY FIGHTING other professional fighters, and guys who wern't world beaters, the spectators cried for their money back. But just before that, he engaged in a knock-down, drag-out fistic 'fight for the ages' vs world champion Jack Dempsey??? Keep citing how plausible it is, please, for the amusement of the others .

- My dear sweets, you have fallen so far behind that the teacher can't see you any more without a telescope.

I've already posted the contents of the article upon his release where he gives his weight around the 220 mark and brags about being in the condition of his life. I thought it was common knowledge he was put in charge of the gym and exercise areas during his Leavenworth stay, at least that's what I've heard plenty enough times.

As far as his style goes, age has nothing to do with him being booed as that happened through much of his career, arguably the first panto villain in sports. I also assumed it was common knowledge that fighter records back then are likely to be incomplete. At any rate, Topeka Jack Johnson is always mentioned as a boxer/baseball/owner-promoter which makes me think he was boxing to get his baseball team off the ground. Townsend and Boykin have many bouts after the Johnson bout, so it's likely that having boxed with Johnson the subsequent careers were better promoted and noted by the press.

See, you've been diddlin' away from the schoolroom while we've been studying. In his last two title fights, Moran and Willard, he was incredibly aggressive with a good pace and was willing to slug it out. He didn't have a mark on his face, so his defense carried him into his 40s relatively unscathed. Most of his defeats after Willard probably down to being poor again and and being depressed over never getting a title shot and missing the limelight.

As noted, Dempsey would've likely been wearing the cuffs to secure as much betting action as possible, and as I noted, the fight an echo of the Carpentier fight where early on Carp lands his Sunday punch and shakes up Jack for a second or two while he looks to be deliberately going thru the motions rather than fighting. As I also mentioned, they wouldn't be in fight shape, but exhibition shape that favors Johnson's style over the finely tuned Dempsey.

Funny thing is how the article has lured you in as a foil. You can't keep away any more than a moth to flame.

I stand corrected about Townshend and Boykin, they did in fact fight professionally. But they were also tomato cans.

I'll let you dig your own grave as usual. Your gullability is pathetic but hell you are quick to exclaim that you KNOW Valuev-Holyfield was a fix, so your love of ridiculous conspiracy is already noted.

[The Great John L]

...There are no corroborators, no any other reports, nor even any people who came forth in the now close to 90 years since the event took supposedly place and even claimed they were there. As mentioned before, there is much better evidence for Bigfoot than there is for this fight.

Well the government has been able to keep the Roswell incident and Area 51 quiet now for about 60 years, so keeping a simple fight quiet for 90 years really doesn't seem so far fetched.

[Ezzard]

Love the thread, the article, the debate...

I wish I could believe it was true. I agree that the writer found something and threw it out there, purposely writing in a style that allowed us to buy into the myth.

There are a million reasosn why this couldn't have happened. I'd rather ignore all those though because a good story is everything IMO.

[jmc617]

Post stemmed from this thread for all of you who want to read more about the subject.

This is a great post! thanks alot BroughtonRulesRefuge for taking the time out to put this up there for us I know it was a pain in the ass!

I don't remember seeing that article in the BDE for the month of December when I checked the microfilm and I remember scouring that month in particular. I am going to go back there when I get alittle time to check it out again. The style of the clippings look like Brooklyn Daily Eagle's I may have missed it, they may be from a different publication, the date could be wrong or the ones shown in the magazine could be phoney, who knows.

I don't think the bout happened, personally. I am basing that going by Dempsey's reaction when Lew asked him about it and Johnson's statements from the NY Times.



CLICK HERE for the link to the article shown above. You have to click the adobe icon to see the article from August 27th, 1922.

Here is an article from a month before in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle that I noticed on the reel.




Here is a closer look at the newspaper from that time. I will see if I can squeeze a few minutes in at the library to check today for everyone.

[Djanders]

Then the fight in Mexico could have been Dempsey-Johnson II?

And then, browsing online, I stumbled across what could have been Dempsey-Johnson III, with Johnson 62 years old and Dempsey 45:

Curry may not have ended Dempsey's comeback—there would be one more fight—but he certainly hastened its conclusion. There was no more talk of meeting Joe Louis, and if Waxman still floated trial balloons, including a possible bout with the Chilean contender Arturo Godoy, they were immediately deflated. Meanwhile, 62-year-old Jack Johnson, who had been heavyweight champion from 1908 to 1915 issued a challenge to Dempsey, and a Los Angeles promoter offered Dempsey a match with the former wrestler Ed (Strangler) Lewis, who was 50 and weighed 290. Bob Dumby, a New York sportswriter and a Dempsey admirer, spoke for many others: "Already he has sold a magnificent fistic birthright for a cheap mess of small-time pottage."

Source: http://www.mmbolding.com/Heavyweights/B ... empsey.htm

This is a great thread!

[jmc617]

I just got back from the NYC library and checked the Brooklyn Daily Eagle for the month of December 1921 and did not find the article anywhere. I checked the News and Sports sections and scanned the microfilm for a few days before and after that 12-11-21 date. I was also keeping a tab of the page numbers to make sure the microfilm people didn't forget to add a page which they are notorious for doing. All the pages for the issues were numbered consecutively and I didn't notice any pages missing.

My conclusion at this point would be that the article could have be a fake doctored up by someone, the article could have been published in another brooklyn newspaper other than BDE or they had the date wrong and it was another time? We could see who this writer, Ray Pearson, worked for at the time.







Figured I would get December of the following year, 1922, as well just in case someone put the wrong year. Did find this great drawing by Frank Dunham of Tunney on that day December 11th, 1922.



This is from the fightbeat article in case you missed it.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

My conclusion at this point would be that the article could have be a fake doctored up by someone, the article could have been published in another brooklyn newspaper other than BDE or they had the date wrong and it was another time? We could see who this writer, Ray Pearson, worked for at the time.
This is from the fightbeat article in case you missed it.

-Thanks for the great info. I wonder if they started and then stopped the presses, meaning the paper with the article would end up as a sort of limited edition copy?

In the consideration of Fightbeat article being fake, in 83 when the Fight beat article comes out, it seems like there would be a good deal of effort put into setting the type on some old newspaper stock, meaning significant expense or someone doing a big favor.

Art world is full of fake old masters and such, but in boxing the stakes are so small as to eliminate any financial gain. Maybe Eskin was trying to make himself a big shot at his new gig, or maybe he was a closet proto-National Inquirer type of reporter that pulled a fast one.

As far as the lack of witnesses, well we still don't have any eyewitnesses to either of the Liston/Ali fights being fixed in spite of what appears to be obvious in at least the 2nd fight.

I'm thinking that if this is a private men's club for highrollers, they'd be sure and get everyone well liquored up in advance to coax bets out of them. These would've overwhelmingly been unsophisticated miners. As such, it could be a pair of fake fighters passing themselves off as Johnson and Dempsey really did stage the thing.

Anyway, from the article, the whole thing was kept secret, so of course the local source might not know. And then if Rickard got wind of it, he could've had evidence destroyed, he was a tycoon of sorts in his day.

I also know the media gets things wrong all the time. Was an eye opener for me discovering that at a tender age. It also seems like with all the challenges by Johnson, eventually Dempsey would be tempted under the right conditions.

I remember reading Jean Harlow's bio, and she used to disappear into public without her glamorous persona, and was able to pass herself off as a normal girl and did a lot of naughty, naughty stuff. They are both from working stock after all, and we know Dempsey had at least one double in the world, Schmeling, and I'm sure JJ and JD were common enough looking in working clothes that they could too.

This is boxing. Anything goes, but one thing for sure, Eskin spun a good story.

[Collins2000]

Thanks for the great info. I wonder if they started and then stopped the presses, meaning the paper with the article would end up as a sort of limited edition copy?

Of course! That's the answer.




(I used to wonder how David Icke could hold sell-out "lectures" at $200 a head exposing the "fact" that the world was secretly run by a race of shape-shifting alien lizards. Then I found this place and met people like Bazza, Jimbo, DaveV, Rocky50Project, terap etc and it all became clear.)

[Robinson]

DaveV shouldn't be in that list of Ickeites Collins.

Or perhaps you are the Reptillian over lord.

Its ashame that their are no news reels or old
footage of this. That would have been interesting.

Is their much footage of Johnson post Willard and
pre 1930s ?

[Collins2000]

DaveV shouldn't be in that list of Ickeites Collins.

Solely on his oft-posted scorecard of Ali - Norton (2) he qualifies:

Norton - 10 rounds
Ali - 1 round
Even - 1 round

Anyone as delusional as that has to be a solid prospect for an Icke lecture.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I love that scorecard D

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

DaveV shouldn't be in that list of Ickeites Collins.

Or perhaps you are the Reptillian over lord.

Its ashame that their are no news reels or old
footage of this. That would have been interesting.

Is their much footage of Johnson post Willard and
pre 1930s ?

-There's some footage of him leading a band, kinda cheesy but interesting he could get people to pay him to do stuff he wasn't suited for.

Here's a clip of he and Jeanette sparring to raise war bonds. He's 68, Joe is 71, and Johnson speaks in his affectated accent on patriotism before sparring. Joe is quite fiesty and looks like he could probably still handle half the young men in the country. Johnson looks wasted. Probably a nice recreation of how their bouts were conducted. Looks like George Godfrey is the ref maybe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K6yDJ8s ... re=related

[Collins2000]

I love that scorecard D

It makes me smile too.

I think it was that scorecard that sealed his acceptance by the very choosey granberry. After that you had to throw a bucket of water over them to get them apart.

[jmc617]

Is their much footage of Johnson post Willard and
pre 1930s ?

-
Johnson looks wasted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K6yDJ8s ... re=related

That he does lol...

[Robinson]

Broughton
thanks for that clip. Johnson looks like an alien.

Collins
That's kinda like my score card....in actual
fatc...I can not recall how I scored that one..ill
re watch it.

[Collins2000]

Broughton
thanks for that clip. Johnson looks like an alien.

Collins
That's kinda like my score card....in actual
fatc...I can not recall how I scored that one..ill
re watch it.

That's how you scored the rematch?

1 round to Ali?

You sure you aren't thinking about the first fight, Kym?

Anyone who could only find 1 round to give Ali in the rematch with Norton must have taken a right hand to the noggin from Super Alan Sugar!

[Robinson]

I think I had it as a draw to be honest.
I shall re check later this eve @